Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-15-2022, 11:20 AM   #1
Veteran Member
 
City: Shrewsbury
Vessel Name: Banna Strand
Vessel Model: Seadoo Challenger 230
Join Date: Sep 2022
Posts: 51
N59CP and Coastal Cruisers

The 59CP looks like a deluxe Great Loop boat, and it has been criticized for being too expensive, and that Nordhavn just can't compete in Coastal Cruisers. I would like to hear who y'all think is beating NH in this segment. By this segment I mean a boat that is short enough for the Great Loop, has room to breath, has an engine room you can actually work in, has fuel economy better than 1 nmpg at 9 knts, and basically is ready to live aboard. Any great loop boat I get will spend time in the Bahamas.
Duke 239 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2022, 11:50 AM   #2
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,041
I actually think they are significantly less expensive that a similarly sized grand banks, flemming, Saber, Hampton, etc. But those other brands are abundant, well proven, and all kinks worked out. I also seriously doubt 1nmpg @ 9 kts, but I doubt it equally on any other similar size/weight boat. There is just no way around the physics of moving a boat through water. I think most all fuel economy numbers are overstated.


In the end, I would look at whether you like the boat or not. That's what really matters the most.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2022, 12:02 PM   #3
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 4,252
As twistedtree mentioned, there is a lot of competition in the costal cruising market. 1 nmpg @ 9 kts is not unrealistic. What is never mentioned is that these are numbers based on an empty boat with no fuel and water onboard. After you move on, add water and fuel you will find a performance difference.
tiltrider1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2022, 12:21 PM   #4
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,111
TT - how does the 59CP compare to the GB60 Ken Williams ended up getting, both space and list price? From the outside, appear to be be built for similar purposes?

FYI - the Nordhavn 57 with Lugger 6-cylinder (I think it was a Komatsu) ran at about 6gph @ 9 kts (no generator). Honestly, 1gpnm @ 9-kts for a 60-footer doesn't sound too far off even with twins. That said, I agree that most owner-estimates are optimistic. I suspect it's well-meaning because few owners run their boats long distances without harbor-stops etc. that run-up hours without associated fuel burn.

Peter
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2022, 12:32 PM   #5
Guru
 
City: Carefree, Arizona
Vessel Name: sunchaser V
Vessel Model: DeFever 48 (sold)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 10,164
Duke
A decade ago we approached Nordhavn for a coastal cruiser 52. We really liked the design they developed with twin JD 4045s, great range, huge ER and equal if not better stability than the pilot house design.

Obviously it would be far more miserly than the other boats mentioned in this thread. We still have the plans as does Nordhavn.
sunchaser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2022, 01:59 PM   #6
Veteran Member
 
City: Shrewsbury
Vessel Name: Banna Strand
Vessel Model: Seadoo Challenger 230
Join Date: Sep 2022
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
I actually think they are significantly less expensive that a similarly sized grand banks, flemming, Saber, Hampton, etc. But those other brands are abundant, well proven, and all kinks worked out. I also seriously doubt 1nmpg @ 9 kts, but I doubt it equally on any other similar size/weight boat. There is just no way around the physics of moving a boat through water. I think most all fuel economy numbers are overstated.


In the end, I would look at whether you like the boat or not. That's what really matters the most.
Good point. I just saw a GB58 from 2017 listed for $3.2 million. That is a million more than a comparable N59CP. Could be an outlier.
Duke 239 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2022, 05:44 AM   #7
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,041
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
TT - how does the 59CP compare to the GB60 Ken Williams ended up getting, both space and list price? From the outside, appear to be be built for similar purposes?

FYI - the Nordhavn 57 with Lugger 6-cylinder (I think it was a Komatsu) ran at about 6gph @ 9 kts (no generator). Honestly, 1gpnm @ 9-kts for a 60-footer doesn't sound too far off even with twins. That said, I agree that most owner-estimates are optimistic. I suspect it's well-meaning because few owners run their boats long distances without harbor-stops etc. that run-up hours without associated fuel burn.

Peter


I can only partially answer. I have been on an N59CP, but not a GB60, so I canít compare space. But Inwas impressed with the space on the N59CP. As for price, I have heard north of $3m for the GB60 vs sub $2m for the N59. And I expect you would be at $3m for an equivalent Fleming. For the Ns that I have looked at, I think they all come in a lot less than other top brands when built new. Then when you get to brokerage it tends to flip. These are obviously broad statements, but itís what Iíve loosely observed.

The N57 is a freak of nature, as it the N50. I would have killed for 1nmpg at 9 kts on my N60. 8kts was more realistic. By 9kts it was probably .75 or lower.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2022, 10:10 AM   #8
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 7,111
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
The N57 is a freak of nature, as it the N50. I would have killed for 1nmpg at 9 kts on my N60. 8kts was more realistic. By 9kts it was probably .75 or lower.
Any idea why the N57 was not continued (updated)? I realize the interior accommodations were relatively small for it's length, especially for the ones with full walk-around decks vs asymetrical saloon, but it seemed to work extremely well for a couple. Very well built, though I believe that was the last boat built at that yard (Ta Shing? I don't know the yards well). With the chariot-style flybridge similar to KK, bridge clearance was low with wet exhaust would make a decent Looper. It remained a premium priced boat in the used boat for a long time so it seems it had a market. But maybe the 59CP is that update.

Just curious. When the N50 first arrived (and then the N57), seemed like such heresy compared to the N46/N62 north sea beast. But they really worked. To then go to the N55/N47 seemed like a step towards maximizing interior volume.

Thoughts?

Peter
__________________
_______________________________________
Cruising our 1970 Willard 36 trawler from California to Florida
Join our Instagram page @MVWeebles to follow along
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2022, 10:49 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Pendana
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 62
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 137
I'd wager it was engine room access and living accommodations for sure. "stand up engine room" is definitely a part of the branding these days and in the marketing material.

The engine room on the earlier boats is often lamented. TBH I don't think its that bad and is what allows for the low slung nature of the older boats. On the newer boats the tankage, stand up engine room, lower level accommodations and storage areas all raised the main floor up.

I've always found the 62 to the 60/63 transition a bit of a weird one. While similar in the N lineup, the boats are pretty different. The 62 actually feels a fair bit larger in interior than the newer 63 despite lacking the lower utility room.

We also make 1 nmpg at cruise easily. We run at about 8.5-9 kts and burn about 6 gph. On the 1100 mile trip up the coast last march, into the weather i think we averaged 8 kts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Any idea why the N57 was not continued (updated)? I realize the interior accommodations were relatively small for it's length, especially for the ones with full walk-around decks vs asymetrical saloon, but it seemed to work extremely well for a couple. Very well built, though I believe that was the last boat built at that yard (Ta Shing? I don't know the yards well). With the chariot-style flybridge similar to KK, bridge clearance was low with wet exhaust would make a decent Looper. It remained a premium priced boat in the used boat for a long time so it seems it had a market. But maybe the 59CP is that update.

Just curious. When the N50 first arrived (and then the N57), seemed like such heresy compared to the N46/N62 north sea beast. But they really worked. To then go to the N55/N47 seemed like a step towards maximizing interior volume.

Thoughts?

Peter
bkcorwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-16-2022, 02:27 PM   #10
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,041
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Any idea why the N57 was not continued (updated)? I realize the interior accommodations were relatively small for it's length, especially for the ones with full walk-around decks vs asymetrical saloon, but it seemed to work extremely well for a couple. Very well built, though I believe that was the last boat built at that yard (Ta Shing? I don't know the yards well). With the chariot-style flybridge similar to KK, bridge clearance was low with wet exhaust would make a decent Looper. It remained a premium priced boat in the used boat for a long time so it seems it had a market. But maybe the 59CP is that update.

Just curious. When the N50 first arrived (and then the N57), seemed like such heresy compared to the N46/N62 north sea beast. But they really worked. To then go to the N55/N47 seemed like a step towards maximizing interior volume.

Thoughts?

Peter

I believe the 57 was built by Ta Shing, and the 50 by South Coast, I think while they were still in Taiwan. Ta Shing still build Nordhavns, including mine. Wonderful yard and wondrrful people.


I think you nailed it about the 43/47/55 being an optimization of interior space. They also lost the bulbous bow which surely accounts for some of the lost performance. How much? I don't think anybody really knows.


There is still lots of love for the original 46 and 62, and also the 50 and 57. But reality is that people stop ordering them, and eventually the molds get destroyed to make room for newer designs. I've never heard of a mold being destroyed because PAE doesn't want to build or sell the boat anymore. It's always been because nobody is ordering them anymore.


The CP is really a totally different beast as a planing hull, so I don't think really compares with any other N. I gather the 35 can sort of plane, but I think the size difference prevents comparing them in any sensible way.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-23-2022, 04:35 PM   #11
Guru
 
Steve DAntonio's Avatar


 
City: Deltaville
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
TT - how does the 59CP compare to the GB60 Ken Williams ended up getting, both space and list price? From the outside, appear to be be built for similar purposes?

FYI - the Nordhavn 57 with Lugger 6-cylinder (I think it was a Komatsu) ran at about 6gph @ 9 kts (no generator). Honestly, 1gpnm @ 9-kts for a 60-footer doesn't sound too far off even with twins. That said, I agree that most owner-estimates are optimistic. I suspect it's well-meaning because few owners run their boats long distances without harbor-stops etc. that run-up hours without associated fuel burn.

Peter
Others have discussed price comparisons. Anecdotally, the CP 59 feels like it has more volume and def a larger engine room. I know both models, and Ken's boat in particular, intimately as I assisted with the build. A big difference is weight and speed, GB specializes in light weight structures (and they are good at it), cored panels, resin infusion etc., and no keel (which, with some exceptions, is a necessity once you go beyond about the 25 kt speed rang), Nordhavns, even this one as a semi planer, are heavily built with less emphasis on weight-savings and more on their traditional ruggedness. I've been involved with building both, both well-built, both good, consciences builders/yards, who are mostly ABYC compliant, Nordhavn more so, with somewhat different missions. Did I mention the GB has no keel, which means if you touch bottom its with shafts/pods first? Oh, then there's the shafts vs. pods debate...;-) The GB is available in either, N only in shafts.

Merry Christmas and all the best for the New Year to TF members.
Attached Thumbnails
proNordhavn52CoastalPilot.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: pdf GRAVING PLAN GB60 (1).pdf (290.2 KB, 17 views)
__________________
Steve D'Antonio Marine Consulting, Inc.
https://www.stevedmarineconsulting.com
Steve DAntonio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2022, 10:55 AM   #12
Member
 
City: Charlotte
Vessel Name: Karma
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 59 CP
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 17
2019 5902 CP Karma

We have hull #2 of the CP series. It was Nordhavns boat show boat with 240 hours on the mains when we took possession . We currently have 1350 hours with a lifetime fuel consumption rate of just shy of .7 nm per gallon including 1200 hours on the gen We cruise heavy at about 95,000 lbs at last haul out. Will run at speeds from 8 kt to 15 kt but typically like 10 kts (easy time/distance/fuel calcs in my head). Karmaís sweet spot is not a surprising 1 to 1 at 8.3 kts.

Best in class engine room (for a true 59í loa), solid in every design category, at anchor when others are tossing around we are rock steady, on the dock it feels like we have a foundation, bumping ground sucks but we are fully protected. More storage than any boat needsÖ
If you see us we love to give tours. Currently in New Bern for the winter. Heading to Newfoundland this summer.
Mike Ryan
KarmaII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2022, 11:08 AM   #13
Guru
 
MYTraveler's Avatar
 
City: West Coast
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiltrider1 View Post
1 nmpg @ 9 kts is not unrealistic.
Agreed. I can count on 1.3 nmpg at 8.7 knots in most conditions. Efficiency drops off quickly from there but certainly well over 1.0 nmpg at 9 knots and at least close to 1.0 at 10 knots. Excluding genset consumption, but fully loaded and not based on fresh paint or even a particularly clean bottom. The boat weighs 100,000 pounds and is 59' LWL.
MYTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-24-2022, 12:51 PM   #14
Guru
 
Pete Meisinger's Avatar
 
City: Oconto, WI
Vessel Name: Best Alternative
Vessel Model: 36 Albin Aft Cabin
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 3,145
If you can afford a Nordhavn or a KK buy one. If you cant afford one, buy a lesser boat.

pete
Pete Meisinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2024, 05:34 PM   #15
Newbie
 
City: Saugatuck, Michigan
Join Date: Jan 2024
Posts: 1
Hello,
I have a Sirena 58 fly with 900hp D13’s shafts with a Brig 420 w/50hp Suzuki - 850lbs wet - on the back and loaded with 950gal of fuel and 210gal of water -, 80K lbs max (65K lbs dry empty), I get 2.5nmpg at 6.3knts (just in gear at 600rpm), 1.5nmpg at 8knts, 1nmpg at 9.3knts, .45nmpg at 16knts, .35 at 21.5knts and .32 at 23.5knts at 85% load. 26.5-28.5knts WOT at 2350rpm and 92gph.
Aquavita is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2024, 06:29 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
City: Wadsworth
Vessel Name: Mar Azul
Vessel Model: 1977 Hatteras 42 LRC
Join Date: Oct 2022
Posts: 459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquavita View Post
Hello,
I have a Sirena 58 fly with 900hp D13ís shafts with a Brig 420 w/50hp Suzuki - 850lbs wet - on the back and loaded with 950gal of fuel and 210gal of water -, 80K lbs max (65K lbs dry empty), I get 2.5nmpg at 6.3knts (just in gear at 600rpm), 1.5nmpg at 8knts, 1nmpg at 9.3knts, .45nmpg at 16knts, .35 at 21.5knts and .32 at 23.5knts at 85% load. 26.5-28.5knts WOT at 2350rpm and 92gph.
Those are pretty darn efficient engines. My Detroit's won't come close to that efficiency.
PierreR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012