Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-30-2021, 08:44 PM   #321
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,464
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
Nordhavn loyalists and customers like Twisted Tree are a special breed and they and the company have a unique relationship. Commissioning is lengthy and the better part of a year consumed getting everything just right. However, they end up with a boat they love and trust. It's an amazing relationship and I don't know another builder with one like it. If you're willing to put in the time and the effort, then ultimately you'll be happy.

I really admire those who do it while also knowing I could never personally tolerate it. I also applaud Twisted Tree for his open and honest discussion. It's actually very good for Nordhavn too as the worst thing that can happen is a new buyer with unrealistic expectations.

It's certainly been my experience that getting a new, completely handmade, and complex "expedition" boat "finished" takes a year, give or take. How much is "commissioning", vs warranty work, vs just getting the boat set up and outfitted the way you want it are somewhat arbitrary lines. Perhaps more meaningful is what the builder is responsible for and what the owner is responsible for. But it all has to get done.


But one thing that's been interesting to me is that in my moments of frustration when I complain to one or more people who work in the marine industry, they uniformly say it's typical, and that Nordhavn is actually one of, if not the best of the builders. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. There certainly is. But it's also good to keep it all in perspective.


It would be interesting to hear from others who have built new boats in say the 60-75' range, how long it took them to get the boat dialed in. The test for me is the marine supply/hardware store run. When you come into a new port, how quickly go you run to the marine supply or hardware store. When that stops being the first thing you do at every port, the boat is ready.


Smaller boats I think are different because they tend to be built in larger numbers and with less variation from boat to boat. Plus the systems are fewer and less complex. And when you get into much bigger boats, I expect there is much more professional project and production management. But I have heard plenty of horror stories in that range too.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2021, 11:51 PM   #322
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,113
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
It's certainly been my experience that getting a new, completely handmade, and complex "expedition" boat "finished" takes a year, give or take. How much is "commissioning", vs warranty work, vs just getting the boat set up and outfitted the way you want it are somewhat arbitrary lines. Perhaps more meaningful is what the builder is responsible for and what the owner is responsible for. But it all has to get done.


But one thing that's been interesting to me is that in my moments of frustration when I complain to one or more people who work in the marine industry, they uniformly say it's typical, and that Nordhavn is actually one of, if not the best of the builders. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement. There certainly is. But it's also good to keep it all in perspective.


It would be interesting to hear from others who have built new boats in say the 60-75' range, how long it took them to get the boat dialed in. The test for me is the marine supply/hardware store run. When you come into a new port, how quickly go you run to the marine supply or hardware store. When that stops being the first thing you do at every port, the boat is ready.


Smaller boats I think are different because they tend to be built in larger numbers and with less variation from boat to boat. Plus the systems are fewer and less complex. And when you get into much bigger boats, I expect there is much more professional project and production management. But I have heard plenty of horror stories in that range too.
We have built 4 boats, if you count the one just sea trialed and which we'll have a shakedown cruise in May. One has been in the range you say, three larger. However, they've all involved less customization than yours. We've also purchased one new boat in the 60-75' range. They've all been fully ready when we made final acceptance of delivery with all equipment installed and no issues from survey or punch list.

I would say two builds were from a builder who always delivers turnkey boats on time and on budget. It's the way they do business. However, they are a semi-custom, not fully custom builder. Equipment doesn't vary, just interiors.

One other was semi custom, more production than custom, but based on what others have experienced from them, we were lucky. They use a dealer network that we bypassed. They had a dealer in South Florida that was a nightmare and one for Miami and Central America that has been very slow in warranty. Now another in Fort Lauderdale that I think will be good based on the yard they now own. Then the one just built in Italy has frankly surprised us as it had the most customization, although still most equipment basic.

As to Nordhavn being one of the best. I'd say their commissioning process and equipment to be installed by the owner is very much on the high side. They deliver boats with much to be completed. I would put their number of warranty items and the length of time to complete them in the middle. They are known for taking time but eventually doing it all. There are half who do warranty quicker but then half who never do it all and you end up getting it done outside of warranty if you want it done. There are manufacturers who I would never trust on anything and they never get boats right. There are others who build a decent boat but are horrific on warranty due to the dealer network they use. As to Nordhavn's more direct competition, those like Selene, KK, Cheoy Lee, Outer Reef, Horizon, Hampton, Offshore, the competitors listed generally complete the work in less time. Now part is that the others don't typically engage in the ongoing modifications and changes during the build of the boat so some of the Nordhavn issues are self inflicted by buyers in cooperation with the builder. Nordhavn is known for not saying "no" and that is to a fault.

On the other hand I can name many builders I would tell people to never consider and I wouldn't say that about Nordhavn. I'd just say with them to know what you're getting into. Yours is a somewhat typical experience, other than the cargo issue in that it's taking a long time and many of the issues are entirely unacceptable (like the Lewmar where hatches are piled up and yet they continue to use them and they should never reach the customer leaking anyway) but then you do have confidence they will ultimately fix everything. There are builders such as Marlow and Azimut who build in this range and Marlow typically won't ever get it fixed while Azimut will in Europe but not in the US.

You mention what the builder is responsible and what the owner is. Nordhavn leaves far more than most builders in their size range for the owners to be responsible for. Their owners seem to like this though and you're right that it lengthens time and confuses the issue. They install far fewer items at the factory than most. Their buyers love selecting every item themselves and arranging installation. The ability of the buyers to select equipment and vendors, even of what the factory installs, adds to the problems. It's a lot easier to be trouble free and to provide quick warranty service if you only use one brand or, at most, two. For instance, no one has an issue with Nordhavn's hull or structure as they are pretty much standard and production. Standardization greatly reduces risks and issues and Nordhavn does less of it than even many major yacht builders.

The way Nordhavn operates is not inherently good or bad, it's what they do and their buyers are use to. It's just one way of doing things.

If grading them as a builder, I'd give them a very high grade. They build a solid boat. They're honest and fulfill warrantees. If grading their methods and process I'd give them an A+ for flexibility and a D- for delivery and those go together. They don't deliver a finished boat and they take too long to do warranty work. Again, the Lewmar hatches are an example of horrific performance on their part. They're sometimes sloppy as in the cargo.

I'd love to hear from those who have had Selene, Outer Reef, larger KK's, Horizon, Hampton, and Cheoy Lee built and their comparative experiences. Perhaps yours and my post should be taken to a new thread for that. If you so request, I'm sure the mods will do so. Label it "Comparative New Build Experiences" perhaps.
__________________

BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2021, 11:57 PM   #323
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,625
Not quite in the same class as yours, but I had a custom designed, custom built, somewhat unique and complicated 45' sailboat built. I was deeply involved in every step. It took at least a year to debug, prove, and tweak every system. 11 years now and I am still working on some little details. But there are two ends to the stick as well, the boat and the owner. Some owners accept what they are given, patching only when truly needed. Others want everything exactly how they want it - I'm one of those and I suspect you are too.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2021, 07:33 AM   #324
Guru
 
City: Barrington
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Boatless at present
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 1,491
My experience is similar to DDW. Built a Outbound 46. Started in 2012. Literally hundreds of emails back and forth with the builder before commencing. Took a full year to spec the boat which was a massive learning experience.
There’s a few structural bulkheads that can’t be moved but beyond that the builder will pretty much let you do what you want. There’s a strong owner’s community so you have available what’s worked and what hasn’t. It’s never anyone’s first boat as they’re used for transoceanic cruising. So you pay attention to the advice of earlier owners. The builder in the past (builder has changed) has paid attention to his prior buyers so good changes are offered stock. We did multiple new things. Hard dodger, hard Bimini and belt & suspenders self self sufficiency to the degree possible. Even so it took a year before I felt comfortable that everything was sorted out to a degree to start doing passages. After that just maintenance and usual glitches. Felt real good that on several occasions when I had a concern or needed advice I could just call the builders cellphone on the satphone even at odd hours when in the middle of the ocean. He would answer and sort me out. Totally extraordinary support. In talking with those involved with some brands (Bill at DD and the Nordhavn seniors among others) hear the same level of after market support is offered. Think that level of aftermarket support, even to subsequent owners, is a huge factor in the owner’s experience. Think that should be a significant part of who you choose to build your boat regardless of type or size.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2021, 11:01 AM   #325
Senior Member
 
guy with a boat's Avatar
 
City: SoCal and Vancouver Island
Vessel Name: Tortuga
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 63
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 254
I’m not sure grades given based upon second-hand information and hearsay are all that valuable. You would be hard pressed to find a customer based more loyal to a brand and company than Nordhavn owners. That loyalty is earned through product quality and customer support. N owners would not consistently return as repeat buyers unless they were happy with the process and support. It usually isn’t a first boat so its not due to lack of knowledge of the alternatives.

When you hear of longer commissioning and de-bugging times being discussed, that is often driven by the customer more than the company. N owners as a group tend to be very engaged with the process and product. More engagement translates to specific requests and requirements, and also often the desire to understand, personalize and service all systems.

I have owned multiple good-quality boats and never felt like any of them were sorted out for at least a year. That first period includes learning to operate and service all systems, and making adjustments and additions along the way to suit my preferences and use case. Many other buyers would take the same boat and proclaim it “ready” after the first weeks.

Boating is a participation sport for most of us. N buyers in particular tend to be very involved and that takes some time. Buyers that want to be handed a turn-key shiny yacht will go somewhere else and hopefully go away happy with what the builder gives them. Pay someone else to maintain your boat and the quality and serviceability may be of less importance. For a hands-on, involved owner/user that wants a boat that will go far and stand up to hard use, I don’t know of a brand or builder that executes as well as Nordhavn.
guy with a boat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2021, 11:29 AM   #326
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,113
Quote:
Originally Posted by guy with a boat View Post
I’m not sure grades given based upon second-hand information and hearsay are all that valuable. You would be hard pressed to find a customer based more loyal to a brand and company than Nordhavn owners. That loyalty is earned through product quality and customer support. N owners would not consistently return as repeat buyers unless they were happy with the process and support. It usually isn’t a first boat so its not due to lack of knowledge of the alternatives.

When you hear of longer commissioning and de-bugging times being discussed, that is often driven by the customer more than the company. N owners as a group tend to be very engaged with the process and product. More engagement translates to specific requests and requirements, and also often the desire to understand, personalize and service all systems.

I have owned multiple good-quality boats and never felt like any of them were sorted out for at least a year. That first period includes learning to operate and service all systems, and making adjustments and additions along the way to suit my preferences and use case. Many other buyers would take the same boat and proclaim it “ready” after the first weeks.

Boating is a participation sport for most of us. N buyers in particular tend to be very involved and that takes some time. Buyers that want to be handed a turn-key shiny yacht go somewhere else and hopefully go away happy with what the builder gives them. Pay someone else to maintain your boat and the quality and serviceability may be of less importance. For a hands-on, involved owner/user that wants a boat that will go far and stand up to hard use, I don’t know of a brand or builder that executes as well as Nordhavn.
The only negative grade given was on delivery as factually Nordhavn does not consistently deliver on time. Even their most fervent supporters would agree with that. Now, I also said that went hand in hand with their flexibility and the way they work with owners.

I've consistently pointed to the relationship between Nordhavn and their owners and buyers. It's one that most builders can only envy.

I think comments talking about others walking away with shiny yachts that the builder gives them and being satisfied is misleading. We've built boats where we exercised hundreds of choices but they were all done in advance or those that could wait done on a written schedule and not allowed to delay the build. Equipment decisions all made before the build starts.

Also, don't imply that those of us building with others are not hands on. We are, both our own hands and those we engage. In fact, in our builds we've had far more presence on the builder's yard than most Nordhavn builders have as it's just our way. If I was building a Nordhavn, I'd have a representative there regularly during the build.

I'd love to hear from some who have built with their direct competitors.

I admire what Nordhavn has been able to do. I admire them with knowledge of their strengths and their weaknesses. I would never advise one against going with Nordhavn, but I'd always advise one to understand what to expect with them. Best for the buyer and for Nordhavn for the buyer to have a clear understanding. Some is simple, some more complex.

Nordhavn and their owners have a relationship few can match. Perfect generally for each other. That's to be recognized. While different than others, it's not the only builder owner relationship that is strong though.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2021, 01:40 PM   #327
Senior Member
 
guy with a boat's Avatar
 
City: SoCal and Vancouver Island
Vessel Name: Tortuga
Vessel Model: Nordhavn 63
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 254
B&B, you make some fair points.

I should have worded the reference to alternative brands and buyers in a more positive tone. My point was that not every buyer wants to be intimately involved in selections, build and commissioning, and may be happier with a turn-key boat from another builder. My comment wasn't directed at any individual and it sounds like you and Mrs B aren't in that category.

Now back to regularly scheduled programming and TT's new boat. That new thread you suggested is probably the right place to get into delivery experiences with other builders and buyers.
guy with a boat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2021, 04:53 PM   #328
Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 868
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post

It would be interesting to hear from others who have built new boats in say the 60-75' range, how long it took them to get the boat dialed in. The test for me is the marine supply/hardware store run. When you come into a new port, how quickly go you run to the marine supply or hardware store. When that stops being the first thing you do at every port, the boat is ready.


Smaller boats I think are different because they tend to be built in larger numbers and with less variation from boat to boat. Plus the systems are fewer and less complex. And when you get into much bigger boats, I expect there is much more professional project and production management. But I have heard plenty of horror stories in that range too.
While not qualifying for the 60'- 75' new boat category I can share our experiences with two (new) smaller Nordhavn's which went through commissioning in Dana Point, CA (PAE Headquarters). Both boats completed their commissioning process on or close to their promised completion dates. In fact we found ourselves competing with multiple boats (including Ken Williams - N68) during one commissioning and still received the boat within a week or two of the promise date. Overall no complaints with the schedule or quality of work and the crews were all great to work with. The real test and question is if we would do it again assuming the hit the lottery and the answer is "yes".

John T. - Dreaming of Nordhavn #4....
N4061 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2021, 07:38 PM   #329
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,113
Quote:
Originally Posted by N4061 View Post
While not qualifying for the 60'- 75' new boat category I can share our experiences with two (new) smaller Nordhavn's which went through commissioning in Dana Point, CA (PAE Headquarters). Both boats completed their commissioning process on or close to their promised completion dates. In fact we found ourselves competing with multiple boats (including Ken Williams - N68) during one commissioning and still received the boat within a week or two of the promise date. Overall no complaints with the schedule or quality of work and the crews were all great to work with. The real test and question is if we would do it again assuming the hit the lottery and the answer is "yes".

John T. - Dreaming of Nordhavn #4....
Curious. From the time your boat was unloaded in the US, how long before commissioning was complete?

Also, how long before all your punch list and warranty items were completed?
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2021, 07:13 AM   #330
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 2,595
When I was delivering in the late 90s/early 00s, I delivered a couple dozen new Nordhsvns. I was a main presenter st TrawlerFest so met folks there who eventually purchased a Nordhavn.

Majority of my clients were first time boat owners. Late 50s or early 60s, kids were gone, their business was secure, and it was time to do something different.

Being a Willard owner and moderator of the online Willard group, I also stayed in close contact with Willard Marine who were trying to reinvigorate their trawler business.

PAE/Nordhavn approached their business as a brand vs Willard who boat builders. I was with Dan Streech (president PAE) one day when they drop-shipped a pump of some sort to an owner who was cruising in some far off location. I asked why they would warranty a wear-item like that. He said "we consider it a marketing expense." On the other hand, Willard's response would have been "we don't know what has been done to the boat since it left our control." Fair enough, but the end of the story with winners and losers is clear. PAE were unique as they actually used their boats and upgraded the equipment lists based in experience. For those of us who are recovering sailors, i liken Nordhavn to Amel (well, a bit of a atretch, but you get the jdea)

The one place where Nordhavn did not ace the exam was in setting customer expectations about the build process, though in fairness to them, I'm not sure that's possible. Because many of their owners were either new to large boats or this was a first time build experience, they came to the table with expectations of a more precise timetable. Their customers were trying to balance retirement or long term leave, house sales, grandkids, and all sorts of major life events. The vagueness of building a small, self sufficient city was not part if their consciousness. PAE sought out customers with very high expectations and should have been a bit more prepared. Sounds like they've gotten a better handle on that part of their business in the intervening 20 years.

I enjoyed working for Nordhavn customers and by proxy, PAE. The principals at PAE were respectful to me and appreciated the work I did for theit customers. It was a tough decision to exit the delivery business.

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
Current Location: Ensenada MX
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2021, 08:54 AM   #331
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,464
Final spray coat on the cabinetry happened yesterday afternoon!


Now it's on to the floor.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2021, 09:40 AM   #332
Senior Member
 
w8n4sun's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: Mabuhay
Vessel Model: Grand Alaskan
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 318
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
Final spray coat on the cabinetry happened yesterday afternoon!


Now it's on to the floor.
Time to get that beauty out on the Sound!

Hollar if you need an extra deck hand...although I've been told by my buddies that I suck at those duties.
w8n4sun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2021, 03:05 PM   #333
Senior Member
 
City: NE Florida
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
.......
It would be interesting to hear from others who have built new boats in say the 60-75' range, how long it took them to get the boat dialed in. The test for me is the marine supply/hardware store run. When you come into a new port, how quickly go you run to the marine supply or hardware store. When that stops being the first thing you do at every port, the boat is ready.......
Well as a dreamer/lurker to the idea of retirement cruising, I certainly don't have an answer
but I'd speculate that the answer depends a great deal on how much money was thrown at the first few trips to the boat chandlery.
and perhaps even more so to the owner's prior experience

I was recently watching a video Nordhavn posted, of a delivery trip from WA state up to AK. It was a trip video, not about the boat...but I couldn't help but to notice that the thing was already well outfitted. complete with what looked to be a set of several matching new fishing rods and reels mounted nicely in the lazerette...and a center console fishing skiff sitting in the dingy position. Dishes, etc.... It looked to be fully outfitted and very well organized. I sorta doubt it was a new from the factory delivery.

Regardless... seeing all that, my mind drifted to the idea of being able to completely outfit a boat at the onset...having the knowledge to know what you want and need + having the money to do it all right away.
as opposed to figuring it out as you go and doling it out a piece at a time....
skyhawk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2021, 10:44 PM   #334
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,464
Quote:
Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
Well as a dreamer/lurker to the idea of retirement cruising, I certainly don't have an answer
but I'd speculate that the answer depends a great deal on how much money was thrown at the first few trips to the boat chandlery.
and perhaps even more so to the owner's prior experience

I was recently watching a video Nordhavn posted, of a delivery trip from WA state up to AK. It was a trip video, not about the boat...but I couldn't help but to notice that the thing was already well outfitted. complete with what looked to be a set of several matching new fishing rods and reels mounted nicely in the lazerette...and a center console fishing skiff sitting in the dingy position. Dishes, etc.... It looked to be fully outfitted and very well organized. I sorta doubt it was a new from the factory delivery.

Regardless... seeing all that, my mind drifted to the idea of being able to completely outfit a boat at the onset...having the knowledge to know what you want and need + having the money to do it all right away.
as opposed to figuring it out as you go and doling it out a piece at a time....

That boat had completed commissioning and the buyer's stuff was all move on and moved in. It was then delivered to AK where the buyer took possession/ownership. That commissioning was well orchestrated and only took 5 weeks.



We are sitting with a trailer full of our stuff, ready to move it onto the boat when the salon repairs are finished.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2021, 11:48 PM   #335
TF Site Team
 
City: Ex-Brisbane, now Bribie Island, Qld
Vessel Name: Now boatless - sold 6/2018
Vessel Model: Had a Clipper (CHB) 34
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,847
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree View Post
Final spray coat on the cabinetry happened yesterday afternoon!

Now it's on to the floor.
OMG, Twisted, I hope you meant they are varnishing the floor next, and not that there was over-spray from the cabinetry now marking the floor..?
__________________
Pete
Peter B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2021, 07:49 AM   #336
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,464
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter B View Post
OMG, Twisted, I hope you meant they are varnishing the floor next, and not that there was over-spray from the cabinetry now marking the floor..?

Well there is a not-so-funny ambiguity. Thankfully there is no over-spray, and they have just begun the refinishing process on the floor.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2021, 11:54 AM   #337
Guru
 
City: Barrington
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Boatless at present
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 1,491
Don’t know about power but have been the owner for new build Outbound and part of initial delivery crew for new build Hinckley, Morris, NEB and others. Never helped with a new Amel but know the details for a new Nautor Swan. Even when delivered from distant shores from offloading to acceptance it’s been a week or two at most. Unlike Peter’s experience all owners had prior boats.Crew was a selection of friends and we all knew each other from before. Infill items such as tools, safety gear, cooking and serving items, linens, clothes, handheld electronics and such were either prepurchased or came from prior vessels. All this stuff was shipped and held at the builders yard or some carried by us as we came to the yard or in the case of the Outbound when we went to the yard or shipped to where the boat was offloaded from China. We spent a day or two outfitting the boat and storing things. Then off we went. On my own boat the builder had arranged a rigger, electronics tech and wrench to come to the boat before we got there. Think when the spot where the boat is turned over to the new owner is the builders yard it’s done internally by the builder. A few things like the watermaker and such were installed and commissioned by subs but again done before the vessels were turned over to the new owners. So commissioning was opaque to us. This sounds totally different from what’s posted here. A day or two to outfit and off you go. I know some owners get an outside person (paid surveyor or mechanic) to go through the boat before accepting the vessel. We didn’t do that. I know sometimes there are flaws that need attention. Sisterships tell me they have had the builder direct them to go to a certain yard and have the work done on the builders dime. This occurs after acceptance. We were fortunate. Our issues could be dealt by us (with teaching support from the builder) and on a few occasions with the builder shipping us parts.
Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2021, 12:41 PM   #338
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 20,113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
Don’t know about power but have been the owner for new build Outbound and part of initial delivery crew for new build Hinckley, Morris, NEB and others. Never helped with a new Amel but know the details for a new Nautor Swan. Even when delivered from distant shores from offloading to acceptance it’s been a week or two at most. Unlike Peter’s experience all owners had prior boats.Crew was a selection of friends and we all knew each other from before. Infill items such as tools, safety gear, cooking and serving items, linens, clothes, handheld electronics and such were either prepurchased or came from prior vessels. All this stuff was shipped and held at the builders yard or some carried by us as we came to the yard or in the case of the Outbound when we went to the yard or shipped to where the boat was offloaded from China. We spent a day or two outfitting the boat and storing things. Then off we went. On my own boat the builder had arranged a rigger, electronics tech and wrench to come to the boat before we got there. Think when the spot where the boat is turned over to the new owner is the builders yard it’s done internally by the builder. A few things like the watermaker and such were installed and commissioned by subs but again done before the vessels were turned over to the new owners. So commissioning was opaque to us. This sounds totally different from what’s posted here. A day or two to outfit and off you go. I know some owners get an outside person (paid surveyor or mechanic) to go through the boat before accepting the vessel. We didn’t do that. I know sometimes there are flaws that need attention. Sisterships tell me they have had the builder direct them to go to a certain yard and have the work done on the builders dime. This occurs after acceptance. We were fortunate. Our issues could be dealt by us (with teaching support from the builder) and on a few occasions with the builder shipping us parts.
Well written. Our new builds were all 100% complete when turned over to us and any warranty issues addressed within two weeks plus a recheck all done within a month of delivery and after shake down. In my world, Nordhavn would do it all in China and ship a completed boat, but that's not their way or the way their customers want them to operate. Their estimated completion times vary from moderately off to extremely off but again their customers are fine with that. They've built a great business doing things the way they do them and have one of the most loyal customer bases there is. So, I'm not faulting their way as it works for them. Just pointing out new buyers need to be well educated on their ways. Also, for a three time buyer to sue them because they didn't do things like Westport, even if they contracted to do so, is sheer lunacy and, in my view, he was contemplating the ability to sue when he signed the contract. So glad he lost. Of course the real reason wasn't the delay but their refusal to assist in tax games. Loved the Nordhavn testimony which was blatantly honest in basically saying they didn't really pay attention to those contract details.

Also while we've had great build experiences, it should be pointed out that there are many who never get their boat they made payments on and others who never get a satisfactory boat. There are also those who can't get warranty work done by dealers and just give up and pay others. Then those who buy a reputable brand of production boat but dealer doesn't respond so nine months later they take to builder to get warranty work done. Then those who pay a dealer who doesn't pay the builder and they end up with nothing for their money and a suit against a dealer who stripped all the money out and hopes to be judgement proof. 2 and 3 years after paying, they have nothing and no expectation. There are a lot of horror stories out there which should serve as a reminder not just to choose a boat, but choose the builder and any dealer relationships very carefully.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2021, 12:58 PM   #339
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,464
Here are some examples of commissioning tasks that are independent of any problems found - they are just finishing the boat. Granted, these are more complex boats than many, so more stuff the deal with.


- Stidd helm seats both in the pilot house and fly bridge are installed. This allows placement per the owners choice.


- Flybridge, cockpit, and dinette tables get located per customers preference and installed.


- Any carpet gets templated, ordered, fit, bound, and final installation.


- Shades get measured, ordered, and installed.


- The upper mast is shipped on deck and needs to be installed. That includes hooking up the wires and testing all the lights. Then any electronics or instruments can be installed. In my case that was the sat compass, weather instrument, secondary GPS, FLIR camera, and Radar.


- Install solar panels.


- Remove, fill, and reinstall media filters.


- Calibrate tanks (9 of them) on Maretron via calibrated fill with water or fuel.


- Locate tender on deck. Measure and fabricate chocks, install chocks, install tie down eyes, measure and fabricate tie downs, fabricate spreader bar, measure and fabricate sling.


- Install and configure LFP battery system


- Adjust and verify all charging sources.


- Template and install name lettering


- Install life rafts


- Radar configuration and tuning


- Auto pilot configuration and tuning


- Navigation computer installation and configuration.


- Maretron computer installation and configuration.


And that's not to mention testing all the systems which alone is multiple weeks of work. My checklist is 675 items. Now lots of people will just accept the boat unless there are visible problems, and deal with whatever comes up. I prefer to inspect and test before accepting the boat, in hopes of more trouble-free cruising.


Then you also need to fix any issues that are discovered, and if you think there are none, you just haven't looked hard enough.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-12-2021, 01:19 PM   #340
Guru
 
City: Barrington
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Boatless at present
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 1,491
TT I intend to buy a Norhavn. I think they stand alone in grp boats for the purpose I intend to use the boat. There’s many ways to skin a cat and long as the fur is gone it doesn’t matter once done. I, like you, have developed a warm and fuzzy feeling about the boats and even the brand. Sure, there’s one guy (broken promises) ranting but now having met a few owners and gone hands and knees through a number of boats no question they are done right. It’s truly exceptional I haven’t heard even once a negative word about the build . Complaints have been “I should have done this differently “ not about the builder nor product but the owners decisions. That speaks volumes to me.

Found it amusing you mentioned calibration. We spec’d a Phillipi system for monitoring ( fuel,/waste, all AC/DC production and use, batteries etc). It had further engine monitoring which being a sailboat we didn’t hook up. Builder knew his volumes and shapes for all the tanks (4 fuel, 2 water, 2 waste). We could calculate from that if the sonic sensor said this height it meant this volume. From the manufacturers knew the output curves for wind/solar, alternators, generators etc. in spite of that math it was a PIA to really get the Phillipi dialed in. Spec’d dipsticks in case the Phillipi failed. Did measurements and kept notes. Used our multimeter. Finally got it right and for the subsequent 8 years it was flawless.
__________________

Hippocampus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×