Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-27-2022, 11:40 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
City: Sammamish
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 70
Why a stop solenoid?

Was amazed to see our GB42C from 1986 has a on/off engine stop solenoid switch on the panel.

Apart from the initial bewilderment at not being able turn off an engine until I discovered this switch, I was wondering why would this option be provided in the first place?
Bongi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2022, 11:49 PM   #2
Guru
 
SteveK's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands, BC Canada
Vessel Name: Sea Sanctuary
Vessel Model: Bayliner 4588
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 3,008
Kindly explain how you expected to stop the engine.
__________________
SteveK
You only need one working engine. That is why I have two.
Sea Sanctuary-new to me 1992 Bayliner 4588
SteveK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 01:29 AM   #3
TF Site Team
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 16,916
Most diesel boats have a key to turn on the ignition, then a start and stop switch to do just that. My Formula has a key like a gas boat or car to start or stop.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 05:37 AM   #4
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,859
Some have just a key...same wiring, just all the energizing thru a key switch.

Especially those that have a fuel solenoid that need power all the time to stay open like a Cat 3208.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 05:45 AM   #5
Valued Technical Contributor
 
DavidM's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,383
There are two types of start/stop solenoids depending on the engine. Yanmar and Volvos (I think) have engage to stop solenoids. You have to send a signal to the solenoid to stop the engine. The engine will continue running even with loss of all power at least for older mechanically injected engines.

Cummins and Cats use an engage to start solenoid. Unless there is a signal going to the solenoid the fuel stays off and the engine won't start. Loss of power immediately kills the engine.

There are pros and cons for each type.

David
DavidM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 05:53 AM   #6
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 4,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidM View Post
There are two types of start/stop solenoids depending on the engine. Yanmar and Volvos (I think) have engage to stop solenoids. You have to send a signal to the solenoid to stop the engine. The engine will continue running even with loss of all power at least for older mechanically injected engines.

Cummins and Cats use an engage to start solenoid. Unless there is a signal going to the solenoid the fuel stays off and the engine won't start. Loss of power immediately kills the engine.

There are pros and cons for each type.

David
My Perkins 4.236 has a "STOP" solenoid. Well.....actually it was a pull-cable for years. I only recently installed the OEM stop solenoid.

For simplicity, I like the STOP solenoid. Downside is it certainly makes the boat easy to hot-wire: just jump across the starter solenoid.

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 05:59 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
City: Bristol
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 233
My diesel has an ignition key and a stop button. The key alone will start and stop the engine, but the manual says to use the stop button and then turn off the ignition. I haven't investigated it yet, my guess is the ignition switch turns off the fuel pump and injectors and the button operates a kill solenoid to stop the fuel. I use the button since that's what's recommended, but I haven't found it makes a difference if I don't.
NEtrawler58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 06:30 AM   #8
Guru
 
City: Owings, Md
Vessel Name: Graceland
Vessel Model: Mainship 34 MK1
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 981
If you gave not done so already, it is a good idea to find the stop solenoid on the engine in case you ever need to operate it manually in case an electrical connection fails. You want to know where everything is on the engine anyway, but this is a good one to prioritize, easier to look around a cool and quiet engine than that is one hot and noisy.
Gdavid is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 06:38 AM   #9
Senior Member
 
City: Bristol
Join Date: Mar 2022
Posts: 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gdavid View Post
If you gave not done so already, it is a good idea to find the stop solenoid on the engine in case you ever need to operate it manually in case an electrical connection fails. You want to know where everything is on the engine anyway, but this is a good one to prioritize, easier to look around a cool and quiet engine than that is one hot and noisy.
Thanks and I agree. Maybe this season. Also, you can always manually close the fuel line valve. I have one mounted on a bulkhead next to the Racor. I think that would be easiest to reach in an emergency.
NEtrawler58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 07:16 AM   #10
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 3,222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soo-Valley View Post
Kindly explain how you expected to stop the engine.
Gut-wrenching laugh at your comment.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 08:54 AM   #11
Guru
 
rgano's Avatar
 
City: Southport, FL near Panama City
Vessel Name: FROLIC
Vessel Model: Mainship 30 Pilot II since 2015. GB-42 1986-2015. Former Unlimited Tonnage Master
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,451
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidM View Post
There are two types of start/stop solenoids depending on the engine. Yanmar and Volvos (I think) have engage to stop solenoids. You have to send a signal to the solenoid to stop the engine. The engine will continue running even with loss of all power at least for older mechanically injected engines.

Cummins and Cats use an engage to start solenoid. Unless there is a signal going to the solenoid the fuel stays off and the engine won't start. Loss of power immediately kills the engine.

There are pros and cons for each type.

David
My Yanmar 6LPA-STP 315 HP engine must have the power panel circuit breaker on to start with a rocker switch at the helm. If I flip the CB off, the engine shuts down. So, engaged to run. The lower side of the rocker switch shuts the engine down even though the poer panel CB is still on.
__________________
Rich Gano
FROLIC (2005 MainShip 30 Pilot II)
Panama City area
rgano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 09:02 AM   #12
Guru
 
MYTraveler's Avatar
 
City: West Coast
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,618
On the topic of stop solenoids, I had a very perplexing problem: an engine that would, when the ignition switch was first turned on, pass the power on self test, but not allow the gears to be selected and would not allow the engine to turn over with the start button pushed (the computer won't let the engine turn over without a gear control station being selected and in neutral, so I didn't know whether the problem was with the engine electronics or gear electronics). It turns out that the momentary switch that activates the stop function (not a solenoid per se, but a signal to the engines ECU) had failed in the circuit open position (this was a normally closed momentary switch, so the failure was as if the stop button was pushed when it wasn't. I know this is a little off topic, but since I was perplexed for months until I finally tracked it down, I thought it worth sharing.
MYTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 09:18 AM   #13
Senior Member
 
City: Winthrop
Vessel Model: Pacific Trawler 40
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bongi View Post
Was amazed to see our GB42C from 1986 has a on/off engine stop solenoid switch on the panel.

Apart from the initial bewilderment at not being able turn off an engine until I discovered this switch, I was wondering why would this option be provided in the first place?
The boat I have now is my first diesel engine. The boat was put on the travel lift and in the water and I started the engine. My two friends and I went on a 10 mile trip to my slip. We got there, tied the boat up and moved the key to the OFF position. Well, the engine kept on running and I am hitting the STOP button. My friend has a big smile on his face and said, turn the key to on and than hit the STOP button. OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH!!!

I though about it, and no ignition system so the fuel needs to be cut off.
__________________
Iggy
Iggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 09:25 AM   #14
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Sold
Vessel Model: Was an Albin/PSN 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 25,859
Here's a diesel ignition switch wiring diagram with a stop position....
Attached Thumbnails
switch.gif  
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 09:53 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
City: Grand Rapids, MI
Vessel Name: Arcturus
Vessel Model: 1973 Concorde 41 DC
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 370
Most older sailboats and other smaller craft have a cable you pull to shut down. Perhaps that's what the OP is used to. That wouldn't work too well on a large boat with maybe two helms so they put in stop solenoids. I you're used to a diesel in a car or light truck, they almost always have an "energize to run" solenoid that stops the engine when you turn the key off. Acts like a gasoline engine. And correct, you need to know where that solenoid is and how to engage it manually. The old Detroits in one of the tour boats I ran has "energize to stop' solenoids and they sometimes hang up and won't shut down. You then have to go down to the ER and push the plunger manually. I suppose in an emergency you could do the same with "energize to run" solenoids, and hold them closed with a zip tie or something to get you home.
jgwinks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2022, 10:03 AM   #16
Guru
 
diver dave's Avatar
 
City: Palm Coast, FL
Vessel Name: Coquina
Vessel Model: Lagoon 380
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soo-Valley View Post
Kindly explain how you expected to stop the engine.


I was wondering how oil changes were done. And, doesnt all the noise and shaking get old?
diver dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2022, 10:11 PM   #17
Veteran Member
 
City: Sammamish
Join Date: Dec 2021
Posts: 70
I love this forum, the opinions are delight to read! I have recently transitioned from a Californian which also had Cat 3208s, but with a key to energize at first position and then at next position would start the engine.

On our GB42 we also have a engine power on switch, which when turned on sounds the buzzer and energizes the start button. Pressing that starts the engine.

I guess my question stems from why wouldn’t GB simply energize the fuel solenoid when that engine on switch is turned on. That way it energizes everything and simply to press a start button to start….. pressing the off button could then isolate the fuel solenoid for as long as it is pressed and the engine will shut down. Releasing it leaves the engine energized and buzzer buzzing, but engine shutdown.

So to the question ‘How do I propose shutting the engine down?’… that is how I would envisage it, but it seems GB had another purpose to arrange it this way… possibly it added safety?

I’m not planning to change anything in the setup, but was curious why they chose to separate the fuel solenoid in this way.
Bongi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2022, 11:19 PM   #18
Guru
 
Portage_Bay's Avatar
 
City: Coupeville Wa.
Vessel Name: Pelorus
Vessel Model: Californian 42 LRC
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,795
I'm sure a real marine mechanic will check in. But here's my take on it. Many if not most marine engines pre electronic controls are either energize to shut down or manual shutdown. Like your current boat. Cat 3208s can be setup either way, energize to run like a car or truck engine the usual setup.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems.

Energize to shutdown or manual shutdown requires no electrical power once the engine is running. But it's harder to protect the engine against faults or to properly activate an automatic fire system.

Energize to run requires electrical power to keep running. But it's easy to interrupt that power to provide fault protection or shut the engine down on automatic fire system activation. Energize to run introduces more potential failures.
__________________
Some things are worth doing simply because they are worth doing.
Portage_Bay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2022, 12:12 AM   #19
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,375
I think prior to all the other replies you need the understanding that diesel engines do not have an ignition, so turning off the "ignition key" will do nothing at all, unless other provisions are made. The key typically operated the starter solenoid, and may also control a valve to the fuel supply.

A mechanical diesel has neither throttle, nor ignition and will run until either the fuel supply or the air supply is cut. A common rail diesel will run until the power to the injectors and ECU is cut off.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2022, 06:44 AM   #20
Senior Member
 
City: Grand Rapids, MI
Vessel Name: Arcturus
Vessel Model: 1973 Concorde 41 DC
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 370
Quote:
Originally Posted by Portage_Bay View Post
I'm sure a real marine mechanic will check in. But here's my take on it. Many if not most marine engines pre electronic controls are either energize to shut down or manual shutdown. Like your current boat. Cat 3208s can be setup either way, energize to run like a car or truck engine the usual setup.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both systems.

Energize to shutdown or manual shutdown requires no electrical power once the engine is running. But it's harder to protect the engine against faults or to properly activate an automatic fire system.

Energize to run requires electrical power to keep running. But it's easy to interrupt that power to provide fault protection or shut the engine down on automatic fire system activation. Energize to run introduces more potential failures.

"Energize to run" not only used electricity, but the solenoid can get hot and it wears out faster as it's engaged the whole time the engine is running. "Energize to stop" is only engaged for the few seconds it takes to shut down. Almost no electricity used and much more reliable. But not as convenient. All the commercial boats I've run had push to stop buttons.
jgwinks is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012