XPM78 - Explorer Yacht

[JLAUGHL]

Don't get me wrong I love Turkey and used to have a European team that was half Turkish expats living in London. They rocked!



My fear would be suppliers concerned about FX issues not willing to sell high-end equipment even into the tax-free zones as the value of the items fluctuates wildly locally if the chaos continues.


Going to be an interesting next few months to see if Erodgan continues to cut rates and how much more the Lira falls.


May the FX odds be always in your favor!

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Thought I'd post up a picture of the build after being quiet for a chunk of my remaining life expectancy! Equipment is now coming in to the yard but supply chain issues are an interesting challenge. Hull has been turned and the cabin constructed to flybridge level. We treated the frames with "Masscoat" to limit condensation then EPDM foam for insulation. I've also engaged Eyos Adventures to help with voyage planning for 2023 and the Ice pilots we'll probably need as I'm an engineer who is a novice at Nav, probably not the best place to learn without help. I'm hoping 10 months now till she splashes. Chris

 

[Hippocampus]

Just beautiful. Both in concept and execution.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Thank you Sir, that was a gracious comment. I trained as a seagoing engineer, Blue Funnel Line, some it failed to wear off over the 40 odd years since.

 

[Kit_L]

Joining this thread to see how it all ends up. Still buying lottery tickets! @Chris; I have read the thread today, but did not see mention of any stabilisation. Did I miss this? Best wishes, KL

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Sir -

thanks for posting. We looked at stabilizers a few ways.

You could go for the "flopper stopper" type, as were used on FPB's of Dashew fame and the forerunner hull No 1 of our own design (Mobius). They require two booms to be mounted on the aft deck but these can also double as dingy launch systems. I've no direct experience of these though perhaps others can comment knowledgeably. They are low cost and essentially fool proof.

There are a number of "fin type" designs around, they seem to have become more sophisticated over the years and can now limit roll at anchor as well as underway. For our application operating in ice we felt they could be vulnerable even if their extremities were confined within the beam of the hull.

We also looked at Magnus rotor type stabilisers. They only work underway or anchored in a current but will also fold back when not in use to minimize drag and potential impact damage. We went for this design, in our instance from DMS in Netherlands. Power requirement is pretty low (230VAC 5-8 amps) and they are fully electric so we avoid the need for hydraulics. They need very little internal space and are fitted in P&S cofferdams hidden in the aft cabin. How they perform we don't yet have that data from our own hull. I'll let you know at the end of this year (hopefully!) They don't work very well at anchor in so we intend to rely on the DP system to keep the bow in to the waves using the hybrid drive motors, or just chill and open another beer till sea legs take over.

We did not examine the gyroscopic systems, my impression was higher power consumption and the need for internal volume which for us is at a premium. In fairness to the manufacturers, this is not a criticism just an observation of our application.

Hope this helps. As per a lottery win, I have felt the pain of boat owning and competing cash demands. Our agreement with the yard in Turkey (Naval Yachts) is to provide system design input they can use ongoing. Given Covid was raging at the time, we negotiated a good price, much lower than buying ready built and it just about made the exercise affordable for us as we head towards retirement. When sailing we will rent our home short term to defray the costs. Lots of things are doable with some inventiveness.

 

[Kit_L]

Power requirement is pretty low (230VAC 5-8 amps) and they are fully electric so we avoid the need for hydraulics.

Assuming that's for both, that's a very small draw, I think. And from memory you have plenty of power on board. I'll be very interested in how the Magnus rotors perform.

On my last boat (48', 30T, 15' beam, 6'6" draft) I built paravane stabilisers for her. They worked fine, but took 1Kn off her speed, and I was always worried about hooking up on something (aquaculture and/or debris). But your vessel is 50 years more advanced in every way, and I think going all electric (apart from propulsion) is the only way to go.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

1 kN is a drag if you will excuse the pun. So if we have 150hp for 10kNn its 15hp off the top end though maybe that's being unfair.

To be frank I'm feeling a bit vulnerable here, we all fall in to the trap that our own decisions must be the best ones as we were responsible for making them. Time will tell, but for now I'm relying on a firm (DMS) that has been in business for a good while and responds well to questions and allied probes. I tend to believe that snake oil sales do not last long in our world so we are well past that risk at least. We also have the ability to adjust the GM by filling the fresh water tanks or V/V if they need a little help long the way.

Chris

 

[mvweebles]

Please update on the Magnus stabilizers. Stabilization is a hot topic here and there is little empirical information on them.

While I have fins on my boat, when I replaced them 2-years ago (they were 50-years old), I probably should have more closely examined paravanes. I have experience with them as a past delivery skipper at a time when many Nordhavns carried both fins and fish. For me, I plan on longer runs where setting fish is a minor item and my boat is naturally stabile being low and well-ballasted. She doesn't need stabilization full time. The other deterrant for fish is air draft. Not a concern on the US Pacific Coast. A sizeable concern on the US East Coast where bridges are frequent.

Nowhere in my thinking have ice floes figured into my decision matrix. But then again, I moved from San Franciso to Florida because San Francisco was too cold.

Thanks for the update on a truly interesting project.

Peter

EDIT - speed penalty for fish was around 1/2-kt on a ~7.5 kt boat, but I also add that in my opinion, in sloppy water, a stabilized boat is faster than an unstabilized boat. At least it sure seems that way.

 

[Fletcher500]

Looks great. I always liked these designs.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

My wife and I took an opportunity to visit the yard at Easter. Took a few photo's of progress. Antalya (Turkey) was full of young educated Russians who expressed a very different opinion to their overlords. No one seemed to be in a hurry to go home.

We used Masscoat on the internal frames before packing the shell plating with 50mm of EPDM. First time I've used that product on a boat and was quite surprised how good it was at insulating the frames when touched by hand. Not a scientific test but illustrative anyhow.

Supply problems are being a bear to handle though mostly surmountable with effort. Thanks to the internet. Engines (JD 4045) due for delivery at the end of this month, hybrid drives and Twindisc boxes already site. I bought a Chinese FLIR when slightly drunk 6 months back, that's there also, looks the part though performance has yet to be established. Been having some mental turmoil over shore power set up as we have big power batteries to charge, we think a solution is in hand that can handle voltage and frequency changes yet also not blow the shore power breakers too often. I'll post that up in the next submission.

Regards and a Happy Easter to all in these strange times.

Sorry about the sideways photo's - technology got me.

 

[dannc]

...
We used Masscoat on the internal frames before packing the shell plating with 50mm of EPDM. First time I've used that product on a boat and was quite surprised how good it was at insulating the frames when touched by hand. Not a scientific test but illustrative anyhow....

I first read about Mascoat insulating coatings on Kasten's website decades ago. The stuff sounds too good to be true but every "review" I have read is positive.

Why only 50mm of EPDM instead of 75mm? Space?

Later,
Dan

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Danny - I had a quick look at the yard re the EPDM, its probably nearer 60/65 mm but I use 50 out of habit as that's what we used for instrument cases in my last firm. It's also softer than I'm familiar with so probably a lower density format. I blew in to some, its closed cell so lots of air trapped. Interesting note on Masscoat, I have used it previously on big refrigerant lines under glass fibre insulation, stopped the condensation wrecking insulation values. Do you have a link to "Kasten", new one on me nd I like a read. Nothing new under this sun, at least not till you find it!

 

[Kit_L]

@Chris:

Kasten Marine Design - Modern Classic Yacht Design

Some excellent reading there; I have read all the articles, and he's a fan of CPPs too. Hardly anyone here uses them, and most who dislike them say that they are too complicated, but to me no more than many of the on-board systems we use every day.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

I had a look through - don't sleep much these days. Some of the designs are out there, pretty willing to mix and match designs and styles. I liked the more modern underwater shapes combined with traditional top sides. I'm too old to go sailing now though. One caught my eye, North Coast 80. I read the description, especially about becoming "agnostic of shore power frequency and voltage". Not the first person to meet that problem. It's something we have wrestled with also, just confirmed the final system spec.

Slightly off topic but since its fresh in my mind, this is what we did:

In essence the trouble was worldwide capability and a need to charge quite large batteries (120 kW.h) meaning both single and three phase input. Our final system used Victron isolation transformers and inverter chargers converting to 24VDC for house batteries (20 kW.h). Solar (6kW peak) also goes to house batteries. This takes 50/60 Hz 120 through 240VAC single phase plus the US 2 live and Neutral set up. Three phase 50 or 60Hz goes through a 25KVA isolation transformer and Praxis Automation inverter converting to about 600VDC and dropped to the main propulsion batteries. We tried all sorts to remain on AC and avoid secondary conversion losses but it became a buggers mess of a design with all the safety and cutouts required to limit operator stupidity (me). So with Simple and Stupid in mind we just converted everything to DC and had done with it, exactly the same as suggested by Kasten Marine above, wish I'd seen it three months back and saved the headache.

 

[dannc]

Danny - I had a quick look at the yard re the EPDM, its probably nearer 60/65 mm but I use 50 out of habit as that's what we used for instrument cases in my last firm. It's also softer than I'm familiar with so probably a lower density format. I blew in to some, its closed cell so lots of air trapped. Interesting note on Masscoat, I have used it previously on big refrigerant lines under glass fibre insulation, stopped the condensation wrecking insulation values. Do you have a link to "Kasten", new one on me nd I like a read. Nothing new under this sun, at least not till you find it!

Thanks for the info.

Kit_L beat me to the link to Kasten's website.

Kasten and George Buelher websites sent us down the trawler path. Kasten's website has quite a bit of technical information that I found very interesting. He was the first reference I read about Mascoat coatings.

For many years, Kasten was the editor of the Metal Boat Society's publications.

Back to insulation. A couple built a Buelher design that was a steel 55 foot trawler. After painting the interior hull, I can't remember if they used Mascoat or not, they applied a thin layer of EPDM and then used rock wool to provide most of the insulation. The EPDM was used to make sure air could not get to the hull.

I thought this was a good idea, since it allowed somewhat easier access to the hull interior, if needed, and the price was a bit cheaper. Years later, they did have to modify the hull, I forget why, and removing the rock wool was easy, but it took quite a bit of effort to remove and clean the hull where the EPDM had been glued. Tis a good thing that the glue really was holding the EPDM to the hull.

Later,
Dan

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

XPM78 - build update

My wife ad I visited the build in Turkey again a few weeks back. I thought we'd post updated photo's. Equipment delays have been a read headache but its now all ordered so hopefully we are looking at Q1 2023. My lovely wife won the hull painting argument, I'm a simple minded sucker for her big brown eyes, not a bad fate for this aging sailor. Given that was happening I got to suggest the color.

Regards to all. C

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Forgot to add the color shot (its a CAD drawing so not painted yet). C

 

[dannc]

The wifey and I have had the color discussion a time or two or three.

We both would like a bright color to make the boat visible but I like the idea of just having a bare hull so one does not have to worry about banging into things. An unpainted hull is less money, maintenance, and worry and bare aluminum is likely going to absorb the least about of solar energy compared to many, popular colors. But there is the visibility issue. Take your pick of poison.

Would leaving the hull unpainted and painting the pilot house work or has She Who Must Be Obeyed already made her decision? It would seem to be an easy decision but it is not. I think this is one of Those Decisions where there is no right or wrong decision but one needs a decision.

Later,
Dan

 

[Kit_L]

My two cent's worth: unpainted marine aluminium will never need any maintenance, paint-wise, if left bare. And to me this look is a great look. My neighbour's boat, an ex-Sydney to Hobart aluminium race boat, is 45 years old, and unpainted, top and bottom. It looks perfect to me, and is moored (so out in all weather, all year around). I would never paint an aluminium boat. The times I have seen corrosion bubbles on aluminium is under paint.

 

[mcarthur]

Agree with Kit - our 50' aluminium powercat has old topside paint and it has bubbled up in a variety of places. I'm in the midst of taking it all off and won't be putting more on. While I do like the idea of easily-seen, and grey-aluminium isn't, I think it's outweighed by the reasonably regular touchup/repaint requirement.

There are also some modern clear sprays to go over the bare aluminium to keep it mirror-shiny if you'd really like to be seen!

 

[dannc]

One of the ideas we have had to put some color on the boat is to use a plastic wrap, but only on the pilot house, not the hull. Just an idea that I have not dug into, and the big concerns are will the wrap cause corrosion and how long will the wrap really stay in place.

The other idea is to use a bit of paint here and there, accent painting if you will. We have a boat name in mind and one idea is to have some aluminum plate cut into the shape of the name which would be welded to at least the bow of the bow. Then have that shape painted. It would be an accent that would hopefully look good and easy to maintain.

Flip side is, I like the working boat look of the unpainted hull, the wife, not so much. Such a seemingly simple decision that my wife and I have discussed many times and still do not have a decision.

Take one's pick of poison.

Later,
Dan

 

[Hippocampus]

Look at the Deep Water boats. Plastic wrap looks great!!!

 

[koliver]

This sounds more like you are asking for marriage advice than paint advice.
It also sounds like you know the answer.

 

[Hippocampus]

Changing boats is cheaper and less stressful than changing wives. Just saying. (Recently gave up an ideal cruising sailboat for a trawler needing some rehab. Also blue water for coastal).

I’ve learned. Painfully, slowly but eventually. When choosing the last boat I had built and our current last boat lined up 4 boats I liked. Then I let the wife pick which one. It’s got to be our boat not my boat. Would suggest now there are examples of multiple bare metal Al cruising boats with great aesthetics. Visit several in the flesh. Yes they are smaller than yours and of different design but of similar purpose so comparable. What you see when cruising is the interior and the decks. Not the hull. What you see from the dinghy is the boat in its element. Very different than then when it’s on the hard. Perhaps she would be less resistant when faced with the reality. Also you can see applied plastic film (no maintenance) and paint on the house as well as synthetic teak v paint on the decks. Al hulls look quite different oxidized than new and shiny. Not as metallic and flashy to my sensibilities .

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

I have a question that I'd like to throw out there. Not sure if this is the best thread but here we are anyway. We need to link the John Deere CAN bus system to our MFD displays. So far we have found a point to access the CAN bus and J1939 data stream. We can convert this to Ethernet using a gateway. What we need now is a map for the signals. Specifically the SPN/PGN numbers and data around those. Start byte of the data, Length of data, Scaling, Offset, Possibly bit number, for digital signals/alarms.

Does anyone have a clue where to look for that data?

 

[twistedtree]

It should all be in the SAE standard for J1939. But I'm a bit confused by your approach....


You want to convert the J1939 to ethernet? In what format on ethernet, and can the MFD already accept it?


The way I've done this in the past is with a J1939 to N2K adapter, and most MFDs will accept and display engine data received on N2K. They are off-the-shelf devices. Would this be a viable path for you? It seems much easier to me, but maybe I'm missing part of the story?

 

[Blue Yonder]

Does anyone have a clue where to look for that data?

There are quite a few packages on github that can parse J1939 message streams: https://github.com/topics/j1939?o=desc&s=updated

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

It should all be in the SAE standard for J1939. But I'm a bit confused by your approach....


You want to convert the J1939 to ethernet? In what format on ethernet, and can the MFD already accept it?


The way I've done this in the past is with a J1939 to N2K adapter, and most MFDs will accept and display engine data received on N2K. They are off-the-shelf devices. Would this be a viable path for you? It seems much easier to me, but maybe I'm missing part of the story?

Thanks for responding. The ethernet problem is due to what we have. Alarms are control functions are hardwired through to PLC's from Praxis Automation then they use Ethernet (RS485/433) to transmit signals to the (Praxis) MFD at helm station. Pretty robust commercial system with a high bandwidth but it got its issues. Maretron & Yacht Devices make a nice units that will accept J1939 and convert to N2K but that only partially helps as I cant then use the NMEA in the system. I did lift the PNG codes off that controller though and it helped. I read that all manufacturers should follow SAE defined nomenclature. Some do, some mess with it. So signals from a Caterpillar are subtly different from MTU or Scania. Its got to the limit of my 62 year old brain who used to make steam engine for fun.

The John Deere dealer in Turkey is a clever sort, he will ask JD but indicted they can be difficult about it. So we will use a set up developed for a twin Caterpillar installation and a CAN bus analyser during commissioning for the outliers. Or at least thats the plan until I get the codes from JD or anywhere else or a better idea. Whatever happened to Honeywell pneumatic controllers. I could fix those.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

There are quite a few packages on github that can parse J1939 message streams: https://github.com/topics/j1939?o=desc&s=updated

Thank you for this. Its a new idea for me so I'll go and educate myself a while.