autopilot install

[Lshulan]

Autopilot

To ColdDuck - i probably have the terminology wrong, so please bear with me. The computer is the display unit? The pump, which is sized based on displacement of boat, is free standing or needs to be mounted on a bulkhead? The back of the steering wheel is where the third hydraulic line gets attached?

so let me see if I have this correct, in the upper helm, you mount the pump, connect to the two hydraulic lines and also tHe hydraulic line back to the steering, wire from the pump to the display and that’s it? All right at the helm? And then if getting a display that has a remote, can use the remote at the lower helm? I guess adding the rudder indicator isn’t a big deal either.

 

[bluebyu]

Like many on the forum, I do most of my own work.
(For some, this job may be too much....)
Adding a Auto pilot was lots of work, but not reserved for a marine expert.

Raymarine's manuals are well written.

Work on larger boat projects often have project creep, for example not enough DC power on our bridge. Added a new DC service, wire, fuse blocks, etc.

For our 1993 Carver 440 install, the Raymarine documents indicated the pump could be Type I or Type II. (based on boat size and steering ram displacement) I choose Type II for a more responsive system.

The pump is installed on fly bridge, under helm. Long way to steering ram. No issues at all.

The system consists of:
EV400 Pilot Drive (Takes signals from several sources and converts them to 12VDC positive or negative to drive the pump motor)
EV1 heading control (heading sensor, pitch and roll sensor)
P70RS Pilot head control (user interface)
Rudder position Indicator
Type II pump
Basic NMEA2000 network

As I connected our Raymarine E120 chart plotter to the auto pilot, our NMEA2000 network had to grow. (easy job)

 

[Cold Duck]

For Lshulan, there’s 5 parts to the Raymarine APs installed in MS350/390s. The computer, the display, the pump, the flux compass, and rudder indicator. On the 350s and 390 I have seen, the pump, computer and display are on the fly bridge, compass in the bilge and rudder indicator on the rudder. If you need a size for the pump I can look at mine and give you the model number. If you don’t have the rudder indicator or compass you will have to run those wires from the fly bridge. This is not easy. I have run a number of coax and wires and needed to cut a hole under the stbd seat in fly bridge to route them down the stbd side of boat to the lower helm. Once there it’s pretty easy to run fore and aft.

 

[Lshulan]

Autopilot

Great information, going to hold off until early spring, broke after purchase. Thanks for info, very helpful

 

[dave48309]

Just installed EV400 system under flybridge on MS390. Very simple install, already had rudder angle indicator ran. All hoses are under bridge and short. Bought the remote for lower station, havent installed yet, as Raymarine remote is older version and needs a few more bells added to integrate.

FYI, used AP this weekend fairly rough return. It is awesome to have an AP now. just sayin.

 

[Lshulan]

Autopilot

To Dave48309. That’s the kind of info I want to hear, can’t wait until the spring to buy and get it installed. I don’t believe I have a rudder indicator, so will need to run wiring from fly bridge to rudder I guess, too bad they don’t have a wireless one. Thanks to you and everyone who has provided info

 

[dave48309]

I read on the EV400 rudder angle is optional. The cool thing about it is that I took out an older rudder angle instrument, and the new EV400 controller actually fit in same slot, and even shows me rudder indicator. I have a new Axiom 12 coming this week that I will integrate, and overall update the bridge electronics.

I went to Raymarine a few times with questions. They told me that the EV 400 was correct for boat size. It was actually on the bubble. Now I can make a ham and cheese sandwich while boat stays straight. JK. FYI, the hydraulics are simple. (my first time) just make sure you get 3 of the stainless Tees with orings. most of the install kits come with 2.

 

[Lshulan]

Great info, sounds like it’s going to be a fairly easy install, was worried about running hydraulic lines from stern to fly bridge, now that not an issue. Thanks again

 

[Choices]

My AP pump is on the bridge, 30-40' by tubing from ram.

The pump tees into the steering tubing behind helm and has valves to isolate. Pretty slick, I can pull pump in about thirty minutes.

Mine is Garmin smart pump. Garmin wants $2k to rebuild, parts were under $15.

Dig around in my blog, grandbankschoices, and you can see the pictures of the system.

 

[Lshulan]

another very useful reply, you guys on this forum are super! Thanks for the info.

 

[Duetto]

ok, so i finally got down to the boat. here is what is currently on it: rl70c chartplotter, pathfinder smart heading system (fluxgate & gyroplus2) and st60 rudder indicator. i was mistaken, it doesn't have a course computer and there is no trace of a pump or ap controller.

i read the doc on the st5000 autopilot controller and it seems to show it directly connected to and controlling the pump. if that's the case, i'd need an st5000 and a type 1 pump AND being able to get a hose from the helm to the pump reservoir. if i need a course computer plus the above parts then the project is off.

i have a question in to the raymarine forum on the st5000 & pump.

 

[wkearney99]

The ST60 series usually indicates a display. Those came in several variants, some dedicated to single data display, others capable of showing multiple boxes.

It might eventually be useful to have the specific model numbers off your fluxgate and rudder sensor units. Make sure those are known to have worked with whatever autopilot computer you're considering. From what I remember you could connect a Gyroplus via SeaTalk1 to an ST5000. I also remember some could not be directly connected to other, newer autopilots (as direct wired sensors) and also had to be on Seatalk1.

But before you continue down this road, know that the ST5000+ was not without it's problems. https://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-electronics-forum/216587-autohelm-st-5000-hard-over.html

That and given the range of potential problems that led to customers abandoning them for upgrades to something else, it'd be pretty hard to tell if any second-hand units you obtained had problems until you'd spent the money to buy and time to install them.

Some of the pieces, iirc, are no longer available new. You might be able to scrounge up some NOS (new, old stock) but you'd still be implementing a setup that wasn't known for being without issues.

The later Raymarine autopilot computers supported multiple control units so you could operate it from more than one location (flybridge, salon, etc). But then you're faced with trying to get older gear to work with the newer stuff and having to attempt to implement 'bridges' (which were their own abominations).

I check carefully about getting any 'expensive' parts without understanding if they'd be suitable for a much larger upgrade later. As in, don't buy a pump or something without understanding if it was limited to just an older configuration. I wouldn't think so, but check first. Likewise don't make new holes anywhere until you have a really good idea how the setup it going to work. No point in making a big-ass hole for a control head if it turns out you need to bite the bullet and go down a whole other path.

This thread reminds me of some retro-computer threads I read on other forums. Lots of newbies attempting to re-implement stuff from the past. Stuff I worked with when it was new. Gives me no pleasure raining on their parade when they start assuming "this ought to work" when it never really did even when new.

 

[wkearney99]

I believe my old boat had an S1G autopilot and it also had intermittent compass problems, leading to sudden hard-over autopilot corrections. But it's been more than a decade since I fought with it and finally just stopped using it.

 

[Duetto]

wkearney99, thanks for the real world info. i've been offered the st5000 for free, so i'd be into this for the pump and some hoses. i do all my own work, so in my mind if raymarine comes back and says i can run the pump off of the st5000 then it comes down to the hose. on the pilot EVERYTHING under the dash goes out 1 hole and disappears in a wall before it reappears in the engine room. that'll be the go nogo.

thanks for your help.

 

[Lshulan]

MS390 - Autopilot Install - pump location

To: Dave48309, Choices, Cold Duck and Blubyu (and anyone else that has installation advice) - So the tech I have used many times in the past came by to start to work up an estimate and the question of where to install the pump came up. His idea, which is based on ease of installation (and therefore less expensive for me) as well as easy access, is to install it on upper helm. He said he would simply take hoses off steering wheel, connect to pump and then run the new pump lines to steering wheel. This sounds good and while I know that it’s recommended that the pump be as close to steering ram as possible, you guys have all indicated that your installations are on flybridge and you’ve had no issues. Can you still recommend this? And anyone else, any comments?

 

[Gdavid]

To: Dave48309, Choices, Cold Duck and Blubyu (and anyone else that has installation advice) - So the tech I have used many times in the past came by to start to work up an estimate and the question of where to install the pump came up. His idea, which is based on ease of installation (and therefore less expensive for me) as well as easy access, is to install it on upper helm. He said he would simply take hoses off steering wheel, connect to pump and then run the new pump lines to steering wheel. This sounds good and while I know that it’s recommended that the pump be as close to steering ram as possible, you guys have all indicated that your installations are on flybridge and you’ve had no issues. Can you still recommend this? And anyone else, any comments?

I would recommend installing the pump and the course computer in the space immediately under the lower helm, this should be just as easy to tee into the steering lines as the upper helm, my father's 390 has the pump here and the access is easy. Next to the steering ram works but generally a more humid environment, not as good for the motor end or electrical connections. If you lose fluid, it is nice to have as many options remaining, with the autopilot pump down lower than both helm pumps, it becomes the last unit to lose functionality, if your controls allow for non-follow up mode, you can retain full control of the rudder even if both helm pumps fail.

 

[Lshulan]

Thanks, I’ll have the tech check that space out.

 

[Gdavid]

There are several components with various mounting requirements that make installation of and AP a headscratcher for sure. Depending on whether the system will be standalone, or communicate via an existing NMEA backbone will influence some of the mounting decisions along with whether the system used a rudder position sensor or a virtual position sensor, to what degree the system interfaces with the rest of your navigational electronics, power supply, steering line, compass positioning. Enough to overwhelm you for sure.

There are good arguments to be made for each approach but regardless of how you get there, you will love having one.

 

[dave48309]

I think it is all boat dependent, I have a MS390, and to install the hoses up through the lower helm would have been a beast, where the bridge had easy access. Normally I would have put it to the lower station due to environment. I would just set it up as to whatever wheel station pump there is with adequate room. AP worked awesome this summer. It is a game changer, and even better when the weather is bad. Good luck on the install. much easier than it looks once you get into it.

 

[Lshulan]

Autopilot install

I think it is all boat dependent, I have a MS390, and to install the hoses up through the lower helm would have been a beast, where the bridge had easy access. Normally I would have put it to the lower station due to environment. I would just set it up as to whatever wheel station pump there is with adequate room. AP worked awesome this summer. It is a game changer, and even better when the weather is bad. Good luck on the install. much easier than it looks once you get into it.

My tech recommended me will prob get the Garmin Reactor with Smartpump V2. He says it’s very responsive and the pump will easily handle the MS390 but one concern is how well does it work at lower speeds, like 4-5 knots? Clearly not my normal cruising speed but I’ve run at those lower speeds for a couple of hours earlier this year when transiting Lake Ontario and definitely would have enjoyed an Autopilot

 

[Comodave]

Most any autopilot will struggle at 4 or 5 knots with semi displacement boats due to the small size of the rudders. But it should work, just work harder…

 

[Gdavid]

My tech recommended me will prob get the Garmin Reactor with Smartpump V2. He says it’s very responsive and the pump will easily handle the MS390 but one concern is how well does it work at lower speeds, like 4-5 knots? Clearly not my normal cruising speed but I’ve run at those lower speeds for a couple of hours earlier this year when transiting Lake Ontario and definitely would have enjoyed an Autopilot

It should do just fine, my father's 390 has an older Simrad AP11 controlling a Robertson J3000 course computer and we troll as slow as 2.8 knots in at least 2' ,chop so far. It does just fine. The 350/390's are kind of sluggish with their helm response but autopilots seem to deal with their characteristics just fine.

 

[Cold Duck]

To Lshulan: Mounting pump on flybridge is fine. That is exactly how mine is located and works fine.

 

[Cold Duck]

I bought a used Raymarine system for about $500 to replace the bad computer unit in my Raymarine system. It came with the fluxgate, rudder position and an extra head (think it's a st2000 but can't remember for sure). It works fine at low speeds ( MS350 only has low speeds LOL). Tracks incredibly well in the rivers and sloughs of the Sac Delta. Can readjust course by a degree and keep boat centered in sloughs, canals less that 75 yds wide. Now I have spare fluxgate and rudder position sender. All these older Raymarine units have a computer, fluxgate, rudder position sensor, pump and readout head. I am not sure but the st5000 I believe is just the readout head on your dash. You will need all the other units to make an autopilot. Still, pretty simple and well worth it when you want to leave the flybridge to get a beer, er appropriate beverage.

 

[Lshulan]

Sounds like you got a great deal. I’m very happy to hear that your AP keeps the boat steering straight, that was one of my concerns. The other concern I have is where my tech wants to install the pump. He would mount the new pump near the upper helm and then he wants to takes hoses off the upper helm steering and attach those hoses to the input of the new pump and then attach the pump’s output hoses to the steering wheel. Since I know nothing about the steering system nor anything about the AP pump, I’m concerned this while it sounds simple, it is as far from the steering ram as it can be. And everything I’ve read said to keep the pump as close as possible to the steering ram. He claims that it would make no difference to the steering ram as it’s just hydraulic fluid coming from about the same spot, either from the steering wheel or the AP pump. Thoughts?

And where is Sac Delta?

 

[Cold Duck]

Your tech is correct. Under instruments on fly bridge is perfect. Sac Delta is the Sacramento Delta located in Calif where the Sacramento River from the north meets the San Joaquin River from the south before they flow to San Francisco and out to Pac Ocean. There are literally a 1000 miles of water to boat around 100s of natural and man made Islands. Always can find some calm water no matter where or how high the wind is blowing.

 

[Lshulan]

AP install

Thanks for comments, your reply helps me set my mind at ease. Your location sounds perfect, I’m on east coast on Barnegat Bay. Two inlets to ocean, one to go south towards Florida and one to go north towards Newport.

Will update the forum in the spring after my install is complete.

Thanks to all who put in the comments and suggestions