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-   -   Concerns From Survey and Sea Trial of 2006 MS34T (https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s11/concerns-survey-sea-trial-2006-ms34t-44612.html)

Heron 05-17-2019 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossWilson (Post 766301)
I'm unsure whether its Awlgrip or Awlcraft. Consensus opinion seems to indicate the latter. Nevertheless, I'd still not power buff.

Awlcraft is easily repaired and is buffable. Awlgrip, not so much. Do a search on Awlgrip Vs Awlcraft and you'll see the differences and recommendations. Different chemistry. I put Awlcraft on My boat and have been very pleased..Seems as tough as the Awlgrip I had on my last boat..

sean9c 05-17-2019 11:52 AM

If you think the paint has adhesion issues, it's flaking off, and if you care and if you want to remedy it correctly the only way is to remove the existing paint and repaint. Putting new paint over old paint that is flaking off is a waste of money. To remove the old paint and repaint the hull is quite a bit of labor, I'd think it'd be easily $30k by the time you include haulout and laydays.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heron (Post 766319)
Awlcraft is easily repaired and is buffable. Awlgrip, not so much. Do a search on Awlgrip Vs Awlcraft and you'll see the differences and recommendations. Different chemistry. I put Awlcraft on My boat and have been very pleased..Seems as tough as the Awlgrip I had on my last boat..

Thanks, Steve. I've done the research and understand the difference between Awlgrip and Awlcraft 2000. I agree that it would be an expensive undertaking. I'll take a closer look at the hull, hopefully with a qualified painter and/or surveyor.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean9c (Post 766332)
If you think the paint has adhesion issues, it's flaking off, and if you care and if you want to remedy it correctly the only way is to remove the existing paint and repaint. Putting new paint over old paint that is flaking off is a waste of money. To remove the old paint and repaint the hull is quite a bit of labor, I'd think it'd be easily $30k by the time you include haulout and laydays.

Thanks Sean. Good advice. But $30 grand! in USD? That's over $40k Cdn!! If that's the case, it could be a deal killer.

Comodave 05-17-2019 01:26 PM

If you have the canvas restitched only use Tenara thread. It will last the life of the canvas where poly thread will last 3 to 4 years before it dies. The incremental cost of Tenara should not be more than $120 for an entire spool of Tenara thread. The labor vastly outweighs the extra cost of the thread.

sean9c 05-17-2019 02:01 PM

Talk to your local boatyard that does painting. Explain to them that the existing paint is flaking and what it'd cost to remove the existing paint and repaint. The problem with flaking paint is that you don't know where it stops. It could be a small section with bad adhesion or the whole boat. Because you can't tell and painting is so expensive that it doesn't make sense to take a chance of not making sure that the prep was done correctly.
If it's important to you that the paint is not flaking and unless this boat is a smoking deal I'd keep looking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossWilson (Post 766335)
Thanks Sean. Good advice. But $30 grand! in USD? That's over $40k Cdn!! If that's the case, it could be a deal killer.


RT Firefly 05-17-2019 02:53 PM

Greetings,
Mr. RW. For the $$ you anticipate spending, the paint and canvas should be top notch IMO. You may be hard pressed to find a qualified person(s) to advise you on these items in Kingston. I have dealt with Quinte Canvas in the past and would NOT recommend their work. Over priced and shoddy IMO.



Another potential problem, if one can call it so, is the space in the ER with 2 engines. I looked up other MS 34's and even with one engine, there does not seem to be much room. Your call on that one.


I can tell from the tone of your posts that you are excited about this boat and she DOES show well (I looked her up) but this is NOT the time to be emotional IN ANY WAY! I advise TOTAL pragmatism. Tough to say but there ARE other boats out there. Both eyes open and patience, my friend.

Shrew 05-17-2019 02:55 PM

The exhaust you're seeing doesn't sound out of line. Particularly for what is probably the first run of the season. The fact that is starting 'campering' in can occur with wind at your stern.

The paint sounds like an adhesion issue, which is the result of improper prep and application. Buffing the top won't impact it's adhesion to the hull.

White splotches could be repairs (it's a used boat, bumps happen). It could be where someone has used a cutting agent and buffed through the paint. (hard to tell without seeing it).

Canvas and isinglass require replacing every now and then. Maybe sunbrella doesn't shrink, but it sure seems like Isinglass does. Isinglass does tend to stretch a bit more in the heat. They are always tough to fit in the spring, particular in cool weather.

There isn't anything on this list that would have me concerned at all. I almost assume going into a used boat that I'm going to need to do some heavy compounding and buffing, replace canvas and isinglass, electronics, anchor and rhode, and scrutinize all pumps and hoses with anticipation of replacement.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comodave (Post 766355)
If you have the canvas restitched only use Tenara thread. It will last the life of the canvas where poly thread will last 3 to 4 years before it dies. The incremental cost of Tenara should not be more than $120 for an entire spool of Tenara thread. The labor vastly outweighs the extra cost of the thread.

Thanks, Commodave. I'll remember the word Tenara. Good advice.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean9c (Post 766368)
Talk to your local boatyard that does painting. Explain to them that the existing paint is flaking and what it'd cost to remove the existing paint and repaint. The problem with flaking paint is that you don't know where it stops. It could be a small section with bad adhesion or the whole boat. Because you can't tell and painting is so expensive that it doesn't make sense to take a chance of not making sure that the prep was done correctly.
If it's important to you that the paint is not flaking and unless this boat is a smoking deal I'd keep looking.

That's the challenge, Sean. These MS trawlers are extremely rare in Ontario. I'd been looking for one for several months, finally found this one when it was listed in January, negotiated a purchase subject to satisfactory survey, and continued watching for new listings here. Nothing showed up since. That's why they command higher than expected prices, and why buyers must be prepared to pay. I just prefer to avoid being taken to the bank. My philosophy is that if both parties are not completely happy, then it's a fair deal.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RT Firefly (Post 766388)
Greetings,
Mr. RW. For the $$ you anticipate spending, the paint and canvas should be top notch IMO. You may be hard pressed to find a qualified person(s) to advise you on these items in Kingston. I have dealt with Quinte Canvas in the past and would NOT recommend their work. Over priced and shoddy IMO.



Another potential problem, if one can call it so, is the space in the ER with 2 engines. I looked up other MS 34's and even with one engine, there does not seem to be much room. Your call on that one.


I can tell from the tone of your posts that you are excited about this boat and she DOES show well (I looked her up) but this is NOT the time to be emotional IN ANY WAY! I advise TOTAL pragmatism. Tough to say but there ARE other boats out there. Both eyes open and patience, my friend.

Thanks RTF. In as much as I agree with everything you say, these fresh-water MS trawlers are quite rare here in Ontario and even Quebec. Aside from the subject, not one has been listed this year. And to buy a salt-water vessel in the USA with Cdn dollars doesn't make sense to me.


The ER is indeed crowded, made ore so with the recent installation of 2 very large Rolls Surrette batteries between the engines. Nevertheless, one can still move around everything, including to each side of each engine. The mechanic who has done almost all of the maintenance and upgrade work told me he'd have preferred to work there without the big batteries, but says he manages fine.


And you're absolutely correct that I must set emotions aside. I've actually advised former clients that for the best deal, you must be prepared to walk away from the negotiating table. But ...

RossWilson 05-17-2019 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrew (Post 766389)
The exhaust you're seeing doesn't sound out of line. Particularly for what is probably the first run of the season. The fact that is starting 'campering' in can occur with wind at your stern.

The paint sounds like an adhesion issue, which is the result of improper prep and application. Buffing the top won't impact it's adhesion to the hull.

White splotches could be repairs (it's a used boat, bumps happen). It could be where someone has used a cutting agent and buffed through the paint. (hard to tell without seeing it).

Canvas and isinglass require replacing every now and then. Maybe sunbrella doesn't shrink, but it sure seems like Isinglass does. Isinglass does tend to stretch a bit more in the heat. They are always tough to fit in the spring, particular in cool weather.

There isn't anything on this list that would have me concerned at all. I almost assume going into a used boat that I'm going to need to do some heavy compounding and buffing, replace canvas and isinglass, electronics, anchor and rhode, and scrutinize all pumps and hoses with anticipation of replacement.

Thanks, Shrew, for your comments. When I inspected this vessel in January when she was in heated storage, the hull had just been power buffed and waxed. And it looked wonderful with virtually no signs of damage or flaking. But when we returned to port after the sea trial yesterday, I noticed on the hull just aft of the bow what appeared to be 4-5 spots of white gelcoat showing where the paint had somehow been shed. That's the mystery for now. I don't mind small repairs and replacements, but the rather large expenditures associated with paint and canvas would be disturbing. Since it's rare to find one in Ontario, and because it's otherwise in top condition, I still prefer to buy this boat, but not at the price previously agreed.

Comodave 05-17-2019 04:34 PM

Get a knowledgeable painter and have them take a look at it and give an opinion. We just painted our whole boat last spring and it is a lot of work.

BruceK 05-17-2019 07:12 PM

Did the mechanical surveyor have any concerns about the insertion point for raw water injection into the exhaust? If not sufficiently away from the turbos, ie on the outbound side of the exhaust, there is a risk of standing salt water in the turbos. I rejected a boat with those engines,partly on that basis,on advice given on TF.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comodave (Post 766426)
Get a knowledgeable painter and have them take a look at it and give an opinion. We just painted our whole boat last spring and it is a lot of work.

Thanks, Commodave. Good advice. No doubt that your boat looks great in her new coat.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BruceK (Post 766464)
Did the mechanical surveyor have any concerns about the insertion point for raw water injection into the exhaust? If not sufficiently away from the turbos, ie on the outbound side of the exhaust, there is a risk of standing salt water in the turbos. I rejected a boat with those engines,partly on that basis,on advice given on TF.

Thanks Bruce. No - he had no concerns. And this vessel will not see salt water during my tenure anyway.

RossWilson 05-19-2019 11:18 AM

Since I'm returning to the negotiation table to discuss deficiencies, including the canvas and hull paint, and how they should relate to the ultimate sale price, and since the stuffing boxes need replacement along with the seals on the rudder shafts, do any of you know what it would cost to have these professionally replaced? One of each is actively leaking. And no doubt, when one starts, the other is sure to follow.



Fortunately, the leaks are slow, so I'll not have to haul the boat this spring and lose part of the season. They can await the fall haul.



And since the seller has agreed that all equipment will be in good operating order upon completion, I prefer to have these costs reflected in the purchase price.



Because the marina is extremely busy right now, they're unable to provide an estimate before my condition expires. So, any rough ideas would be helpful. Thanks again.

Comodave 05-19-2019 12:43 PM

To replace the bridge enclosure would be 6 to 8 thousand dollars here in Michigan. To do the restitching if the materials are in good condition probably 1 to 1.5 thousand.

The stuffing boxes are another deal entirely. Depending on what needs replacing it could vary a lot. I replaced the traditional stuffing boxes on a previous boat. One took about 3 hours and the other took over 15 hours due to the coupler being machined wrong. If they just need repacking then a couple of hours, donít remember if they were dripless or not.

The hull paint could be 1 to 30 thousand depending on what has to be done. I did all the fiberglass work on mine, PO was a charter member of the coalition of the docking impaired, and hired a painter to spray the hull. Labor cost me $980 but he said if he had done all the prep work it would have been over $25K.

Good luck.

RossWilson 05-19-2019 02:04 PM

The stuffing boxes are the dripless type. I've heard they're much more expensive than the regular variety. The broker just informed me that we'll have the marina's quote of the replacement of the boxes and rudder post seals on Tuesday. Hallelujah!


She also reported that the white splotches on the hull washed off with plain water. And she has no idea what it was. The photo of the area in the surveyor's report that was taken that same morning before the sea trial showed no such white defects. I'm heading up there on Tuesday to take another look.


The broker also said the canvas guy who did the cleaning and water-proofing last winter was able to stretch the canvas back into place except for a few fasteners. He said those will be re-fastened with warmer weather. And she said no seams were split. We'll see on Tuesday.


Thanks again for your comments.

Comodave 05-19-2019 02:42 PM

Glad to hear you are making progress. Good luck with the boat.


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