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-   -   Concerns From Survey and Sea Trial of 2006 MS34T (https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s11/concerns-survey-sea-trial-2006-ms34t-44612.html)

RossWilson 05-17-2019 09:59 AM

Concerns From Survey and Sea Trial of 2006 MS34T
 
Hello Everybody:


After my surveyor spent about 90 minutes on the final in-water phase of the survey inspection, we spent an hour or so on the sea trial yesterday aboard the 2006 Mainship 34T with twin 900+ hour Yanmar 240 diesels. (See photo of red-hulled vessel)




It went fairly well, and she moved much faster than I expected at WOT. I learned that the current owners, who accompanied us, were relative novices, and rarely operated at 80% of max RPM as Ive been told is advisable. And to save fuel, which sentiment I truly appreciate, they almost never ran it full out as also recommended occasionally to help reduce carbon buildup. She (the boat - not the owner) did smoke a little, a light grey/white exhaust, when cold started.




However, whilst standing in the cockpit underway, though I couldn't see any smoke, the smell of exhaust was quite strong. The survey, standing beside me, explained that it was the result of the slip-stream that caused the exhaust to be forced back toward the boat. Opinion?




Aside from slowly dripping "dripless" stuffing boxes and what appears to be a leaking seal on the port rudder post, and aside from what appears to be hull paint losing its adhesion, and the failure of the bridge canvas enclosure fitting properly after having been cleaned over the winter, everything looks great. Obviously, the paint and canvas issues are my primary concern. The other issues are easily rectified.




Upon my arrival in the morning,with the boat stern into a covered slip, I failed to notice several white splotches, each about 3-5" in diameter on the port hull just aft of the bow. I noticed them upon our return from the trial. I guess since the owner brought her in bow first, I could easily see the disturbing white marks. But when I did spot them, they'd already left me with the diesel mechanic and broker. So, I wasn't able to inquire about them at the time. When I later raised the issue with the broker, she said nothing, which in itself, I found disturbing.




I had been informed that the marina had, at the seller's request, power buffed and waxed the hull while in heated storage during the winter. During my initial careful inspection, the hull looked great. Later, during my research into Awlgrip paint, I learned that it was a mistake to power buff and wax this paint, that it might have shortened the life of the paint. Could this be the result? Paint falling off the hull after a rigorous sea trial? Maybe the twisting and mild ride was all it took to shake the damaged paint loose? I'll have to get an estimate on re-painting the hull. Any guesses?




While in the covered slip, the surveyor thought the canvas looked fine, except for the fact that many dome fasteners could not be secured. The canvas shrunk from being cleaned and was hanging quite loose in several areas. The broker assured me that with warmer weather, it'll stretch out again and will be fine. Because it was darker in the slip, the surveyor said he didn't notice until we were in the light of day that several seams were already opening. He said the top would definitely leak in the rain, particularly after it was stretched, and that a new enclosure will likely cost over $8000 Cdn.




I've agreed conditionally to pay what I feel was top dollar for an otherwise very clean fresh water vessel that's been well maintained and stored indoors every winter since new. (I had been told there was a competing bid. Not sure there actually was one, but took the broker at her word.) Comments? Opinions? I apologize for the long post, but it's important to me for obvious reasons. Any guidance would be much appreciated.

Bacchus 05-17-2019 10:32 AM

Ross
My Bacchus website has some info an MS hull paint in the Links section.

I did some hull / gelcoat repair and spot painted the area with very good results.
While buffing / wax is not recommended I don't think is results in any instant failure but that's just my opinion. Especially the wax portion - it results in build-up and yellowing over time but nothing catastrophic.
I buffed & waxed mine first season after acquiring it and nothing terrible happened - after learning more I have switched to the Awlcare polymer and like it a lot - easy on/off. The admiral and I do it by hand and it not a bad job.
IMO Awlcraft is not hard to spot patch but it has to be sprayed. I was lucky and had a friends w/ spray equipment & knowledge do mine and I helped him prep & paint a boot stripe on his at the same time. He added several coats of clear top coat after his prime & color. I don't think MS did that but it seems like a good option. Awlcraft can be buffed if necessary but it's not recommended on a regular basis.
I have used the PreVal aerosol sprayer for the Awlgrip/Awlcraft priming spots and it doesn't do a bad job - haven't tried it for topcoat but might when it comes time to do more touch-up small areas.
I was very pleased w/ color match on Awlcraft - I was fortunate as I had paperwork that defined the exact color as Awlgrip/Awlcraft has about a dozen different Blues - Red should be easier.

All in all it sounds like boat is in nice shape and well cared for.
We do like our MS 34HT and felt lucky to find a fresh water one that PO had in a covered slip as well.
Where in Georgian Bay is it currently? (we are getting ready to head that way in a few weeks if NY canals open by then)
Would you leave it on Georgian Bay or bring it closer to home?

Gordon J 05-17-2019 10:40 AM

Diesel smell story sounds right as does white smoke at start and later none. Canvas price does not sound out of line.

Reference awlgrip. NO Buffing. Buffing significantly reduces the life of the paint. Paint will not shake off if it is properly applied. Paint jobs can be expensive. Best to have a professional look to see.

I just painted my boat with awlgrip and expect the paint to last 10 to 15 years, depending on how much time we spend in the Bahamas in the winter.

GMS 05-17-2019 10:42 AM

The purchase process for larger boats includes an opportunity for a survey to uncover issues not obvious to the casual observer, and affords an opportunity to negotiate the final price based on results (otherwise what would be point be in conducting a survey).

Accordingly, assuming you remain interested in following through with the purchase, determine reasonable costs to resolve the issues you feel were not accounted for in your original offer and propose a price adjustment based on the survey.

Personally, I would put no weight on discussion of alleged competing offers, especially now that you have entered into a purchase agreement. Even if there were competing offers, those potential purchasers have either moved on or will be more cautious if your deal falls through.

All of the items you identified are likely to be issues any buyer would be concerned about...

Gordon J 05-17-2019 10:43 AM

Be careful
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacchus (Post 766286)
Ross
My Bacchus website has some info an MS hull paint in the Links section.

I did some hull / gelcoat repair and spot painted the area with very good results.
While buffing / wax is not recommended I don't think is results in any instant failure but that's just my opinion. Especially the wax portion - it results in build-up and yellowing over time but nothing catastrophic.
I buffed & waxed mine first season after acquiring it and nothing terrible happened - after learning more I have switched to the Awlcare polymer and like it a lot - easy on/off. The admiral and I do it by hand and it not a bad job.
IMO Awlcraft is not hard to spot patch but it has to be sprayed. I was lucky and had a friends w/ spray equipment & knowledge do mine and I helped him prep & paint a boot stripe on his at the same time. He added several coats of clear top coat after his prime & color. I don't think MS did that but it seems like a good option. Awlcraft can be buffed if necessary but it's not recommended on a regular basis.
I have used the PreVal aerosol sprayer for the Awlgrip/Awlcraft priming spots and it doesn't do a bad job - haven't tried it for topcoat but might when it comes time to do more touch-up small areas.
I was very pleased w/ color match on Awlcraft - I was fortunate as I had paperwork that defined the exact color as Awlgrip/Awlcraft has about a dozen different Blues - Red should be easier.

All in all it sounds like boat is in nice shape and well cared for.
We do like our MS 34HT and felt lucky to find a fresh water one that PO had in a covered slip as well.
Where in Georgian Bay is it currently? (we are getting ready to head that way in a few weeks if NY canals open by then)
Would you leave it on Georgian Bay or bring it closer to home?

According to the manufacturer, awlgrip life can be seriously shortened by buffing. If the paint is awlcraft, I am not so sure.

Gordon

ronlord 05-17-2019 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RossWilson (Post 766278)
Hello Everybody

It went fairly well, and she moved much faster than I expected at WOT. I learned that the current owners, who accompanied us, were relative novices, and rarely operated at 80% of max RPM as Ive been told is advisable. And to save fuel, which sentiment I truly appreciate, they almost never ran it full out as also recommended occasionally to help reduce carbon buildup.

Running at less than 80% of max RPM's is the norm for most of us Mainship owners, single or twins. I've never heard of a Mainship owner having problems with their diesels from running too slow.

Bacchus 05-17-2019 10:48 AM

Ross
Just a few additional comments re: canvas... I have done my own and other canvas jobs as a hobby business.
Sunbrella shouldn't shrink unless it is heated more than it should be. If removed & cleaned it does have a tendency to be tight going back on until it stretches out again. If there are any seams weak or separated I'd recommend restitching before doing any stretching. and don't just do the obvious seams - if some are failing others will be close behind. If you are a DIYer at all having your own sewing machine and learning to do canvas work can pay dividends.
The Sailrite machines are pretty common for individual DIYers and do a pretty decent job - once in awhile you find a used one on the market (I was lucky).
I certainly wouldn't recommend starting with a making a new full bridge enclosure to learn but restitching / repairing panels etc is a great way to start.
There are a few "threads" (pun intended) on DIY canvas work and my Bacchus website has an Intro to DIY Canvas that I put together for our local ABC-FLX boating group.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 10:54 AM

Thanks, Don. That's encouraging. I hadn't thought of patching. And you're probably right that the red would be easier to match. How many reds could there be?


However, if the paint is indeed beginning to fall off, might this just be the beginning of paint adhesion failure of the entire hull? I worry about how many power buffs this hull has undergone in her life.


She's currently moored in a covered slip in Victoria Harbour, southern Georgian Bay, where she'll remain at least for awhile. We plan to travel a fair amount this season around the bay, and possibly down the Trent-Severn and Rideau. Of course, we're experiencing high water levels here too, so am unsure what to plan for travel. We're also unsure whether we'll bring her to Oakville Harbour, or keep her up north. My wife hates the long drive to get there. My solution is to make the drive once and live aboard for the summer. :-)

Montenido 05-17-2019 10:57 AM

As Bachus said, repair the canvas seams before stretching. A good trick is to soak the canvas with water before installing. It allows more stretch initially, and will tighten up as it dries.

Cheers, Bill

RossWilson 05-17-2019 10:59 AM

Thanks Gordon. That's been my feeling too. It's so easy for a marine to just use the machine without checking the manufacture's website for recommendations. Good advice.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMS (Post 766290)
The purchase process for larger boats includes an opportunity for a survey to uncover issues not obvious to the casual observer, and affords an opportunity to negotiate the final price based on results (otherwise what would be point be in conducting a survey).

Accordingly, assuming you remain interested in following through with the purchase, determine reasonable costs to resolve the issues you feel were not accounted for in your original offer and propose a price adjustment based on the survey.

Personally, I would put no weight on discussion of alleged competing offers, especially now that you have entered into a purchase agreement. Even if there were competing offers, those potential purchasers have either moved on or will be more cautious if your deal falls through.

All of the items you identified are likely to be issues any buyer would be concerned about...

Thanks GMS. Since I want to own this vessel, I definitely will return to the negotiating table after obtaining a rough idea of the cost of repairs and replacements. I just want to be reasonable in this regard, without being duped.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon J (Post 766291)
According to the manufacturer, awlgrip life can be seriously shortened by buffing. If the paint is awlcraft, I am not so sure.

Gordon

I'm unsure whether its Awlgrip or Awlcraft. Consensus opinion seems to indicate the latter. Nevertheless, I'd still not power buff.

Comodave 05-17-2019 11:06 AM

As far as the exhaust smell, the configuration of the boat will cause the station wagon effect and suck the exhaust up into the cockpit, this is unwanted but normal due to the sedan style. You may reduce the smell by opening a forward facing hatch to break the suction. You may have to experiment a bit with different hatches or windows open. Diesels typically donít produce much CO like a gasser would but the smell can be annoying.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronlord (Post 766292)
Running at less than 80% of max RPM's is the norm for most of us Mainship owners, single or twins. I've never heard of a Mainship owner having problems with their diesels from running too slow.

Maybe the only adverse effect of running slow is carbon build-up? And maybe that can be rectified by an occasional brief WOT run?

RossWilson 05-17-2019 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacchus (Post 766286)
Ross
My Bacchus website has some info an MS hull paint in the Links section.

I did some hull / gelcoat repair and spot painted the area with very good results.
While buffing / wax is not recommended I don't think is results in any instant failure but that's just my opinion. Especially the wax portion - it results in build-up and yellowing over time but nothing catastrophic.
I buffed & waxed mine first season after acquiring it and nothing terrible happened - after learning more I have switched to the Awlcare polymer and like it a lot - easy on/off. The admiral and I do it by hand and it not a bad job.
IMO Awlcraft is not hard to spot patch but it has to be sprayed. I was lucky and had a friends w/ spray equipment & knowledge do mine and I helped him prep & paint a boot stripe on his at the same time. He added several coats of clear top coat after his prime & color. I don't think MS did that but it seems like a good option. Awlcraft can be buffed if necessary but it's not recommended on a regular basis.
I have used the PreVal aerosol sprayer for the Awlgrip/Awlcraft priming spots and it doesn't do a bad job - haven't tried it for topcoat but might when it comes time to do more touch-up small areas.
I was very pleased w/ color match on Awlcraft - I was fortunate as I had paperwork that defined the exact color as Awlgrip/Awlcraft has about a dozen different Blues - Red should be easier.

All in all it sounds like boat is in nice shape and well cared for.
We do like our MS 34HT and felt lucky to find a fresh water one that PO had in a covered slip as well.
Where in Georgian Bay is it currently? (we are getting ready to head that way in a few weeks if NY canals open by then)
Would you leave it on Georgian Bay or bring it closer to home?

BTW - I've visited your website a couple of time. Very helpful, Don.

Bacchus 05-17-2019 11:10 AM

Ross
If you can find an experienced boat painter in the area it would be worth having them look and offer an opinion. Probably only way to know for sure. It certainly can be a negotiating point - not following mfg recommendation and obvious issues...
Good luck w/ the deal and advebtures

RossWilson 05-17-2019 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacchus (Post 766293)
Ross
Just a few additional comments re: canvas... I have done my own and other canvas jobs as a hobby business.
Sunbrella shouldn't shrink unless it is heated more than it should be. If removed & cleaned it does have a tendency to be tight going back on until it stretches out again. If there are any seams weak or separated I'd recommend restitching before doing any stretching. and don't just do the obvious seams - if some are failing others will be close behind. If you are a DIYer at all having your own sewing machine and learning to do canvas work can pay dividends.
The Sailrite machines are pretty common for individual DIYers and do a pretty decent job - once in awhile you find a used one on the market (I was lucky).
I certainly wouldn't recommend starting with a making a new full bridge enclosure to learn but restitching / repairing panels etc is a great way to start.
There are a few "threads" (pun intended) on DIY canvas work and my Bacchus website has an Intro to DIY Canvas that I put together for our local ABC-FLX boating group.

Thanks again, Don. I'll see how negotiations go and what develops. I'm not exactly a seamstress, but your advice is certainly sound.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Montenido (Post 766296)
As Bachus said, repair the canvas seams before stretching. A good trick is to soak the canvas with water before installing. It allows more stretch initially, and will tighten up as it dries.

Cheers, Bill

Thanks, Bill. Will keep this in mind. A looming expesce of entire enclosure replacement is drifting into the fog. :-)

RossWilson 05-17-2019 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Comodave (Post 766302)
As far as the exhaust smell, the configuration of the boat will cause the station wagon effect and suck the exhaust up into the cockpit, this is unwanted but normal due to the sedan style. You may reduce the smell by opening a forward facing hatch to break the suction. You may have to experiment a bit with different hatches or windows open. Diesels typically donít produce much CO like a gasser would but the smell can be annoying.

That's a good idea. I could open the centre window of the windshield, or possibly crack the forward hatch a tad. Good advice.

RossWilson 05-17-2019 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bacchus (Post 766306)
Ross
If you can find an experienced boat painter in the area it would be worth having them look and offer an opinion. Probably only way to know for sure. It certainly can be a negotiating point - not following mfg recommendation and obvious issues...
Good luck w/ the deal and advebtures

Thanks again, Don. Will do.


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