Defever 51 POC - Repower / Rebuild

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Injection pumps are expensive, no doubt about that, but. Inside they are actually very similar to an engine. They can be rebuilt for around $1,500.

At least take one in to be looked at.

pete
 
As best I remember there is a raw water line at the exhaust elbow that is pretty high on 3208s in the DF engine room. A leak in that hose may explain a raw water soaked fuel pump. Also, didn't the POCs have a hull side intake air setup that could mist the engine in a gale?

Yes correct on both counts
 
Greetings,
Mr. KZ. REALLY tough call given we don't know the condition of the rest of the vessel. Is she worth investing the $$ and effort into? Any engine change other than another 3208 also will potentially include the rest of the drive train components + whatever unknown or unplanned peripherals as Mr. r notes (post #27)


Another question arises. What are your plans for the use of the boat? Are you planning on continuing the Toronto-Bahamas-Toronto marathons of her past? Simply toodling around the Great Lakes? Liveaboard? Future usage may determine what level of investment you might be wise to undertake. Research the minimum $$ required to achieve said ends and proceed from there.


As mentioned above, the engines MAY be good or bad. Best determine exactly what you now have, beforehand. Perhaps a second or third mechanic's opinion?

Great questions and insight! Thanks for that.

Rest of the vessel is in very good condition, per the eye test and the survey. In terms of total budget I'm fairly confident it makes sense, I'm about $44k usd into it currently. It's equipped with two generators, water maker, inverter, autopilot, which are all in operating condition.

It's a liveaboard vessel for me, and I do a lot of lake Ontario cruising at the moment. Long terms plans can always be hazy, but I'm two years from sabbatical and 12 from retirement, so the option to return the boat to it's Bahamas cruising days is enticing to me.
 
I believe on the 3208 you have a combination fuel/governer/injection pump on top of the engine (in the V between the banks) just in front of the air intake. I can't image how sea water would enter it short of submersion. I image you could get a new one from Cat for a couple grand.

It's a bit mystifying to me also. I can't image the've been submerged as I'm sure that would be evident elsewhere.

Price from local cat dealer is $7000 per side :/
 
Great questions and insight! Thanks for that.

Rest of the vessel is in very good condition, per the eye test and the survey. In terms of total budget I'm fairly confident it makes sense, I'm about $44k usd into it currently. It's equipped with two generators, water maker, inverter, autopilot, which are all in operating condition.

It's a liveaboard vessel for me, and I do a lot of lake Ontario cruising at the moment. Long terms plans can always be hazy, but I'm two years from sabbatical and 12 from retirement, so the option to return the boat to it's Bahamas cruising days is enticing to me.


That sounds great, and if you can get the engine's sorted at reasonable cost you could end up with a good boat.


I think next step is to get a really good assessment of what's wrong with the engines. Are both known to not work? Was there some event that led to that? I think you said they bar over? How does the oil look? Coolant? Fuel filters, especially any water in them? What's behind the whole "they sat too long is seawater" diagnosis? Did they physically sit in a pool of water, and if so, from where? Does other evidence support his, like a rusted pool water line? Or was there water in the fuel such that the insides of the pump were exposed to water? And if so, are there other signs of water in the fuel? It must have gotten in there somehow.


It's very possible that there is a ton more info that led to a correct conclusion by the mechanic. But from what we have heard so far, the diagnosis is not very credible. I'd even say highly suspect. And in a world where many techs just want a quick diagnosis (aka guess), change a part, and move on to the next job, thorough troubleshooting is an early casualty in the process, and you pay the price.


At this point I think you need to figure out two things with the engines. First is whether there really an a issue with the injection pumps, why both of them at the same time, what caused it, and how to prevent to again. It's quite a coincident if both pumps on both engines failed the same way at the same time, so that needs explaining. It's possible if there was a major water-in-fuel event, but there should be lots of other supporting evidence In other words, are the injection pumps really bad, and why?


Second, what else is wrong or weak on the engines? You want to have as full and accurate a scope of work to bring the engines back into service. Peel the onion now through diagnostics, not through a sequence of expensive repairs. A lazy tech will replace the injection pump, fire up the engine (hopefully), then see what repair is required next. With that approach you will know what you are getting yourself into only AFTER you are all the way into it. Fine for the tech, bad for you. Before you set out to fix anything expensive like injection pumps, confirm that there is no oil contamination, coolant contamination, check turbos for water ingestion or other issues, check compression, check value clearances for heavy wear indication, check fuel system for water or other contamination. Pressure test cooling system and raw water system (heat exchangers and aftercoolers can be VERY expensive to replace). I'm sure there is a ton more.
 
When I was re-powering my first sailboat I was told the parts for the peripherals will equal the engine costs. They were right.
 
Reat TTs post carefully and try to follow his advice. You don’t want to blindly buy new injection pumps and then find that the engine needs tens of thousands more parts and work. Is there a Cat engine guru anywhere near you? It would be worth paying to bring one in to evaluate the engines before you do any work and invest thousands into maybe junk engines, hopefully not junk but get the best info before you make the first leap. Good luck, hoping that it goes well.
 
Seems like options might be:
- replace "pumps" in situ (injection pumps, whatever) do your own labor
- replace pumps in situ, hired labor $12K CAD
(no telling how great that'd be)
- replace with 3208 naturals
- replace with same 3208 TAs
- replace with something else
- Cummins B remans?
- Cummins C remans?
- JD something that somebody recommended above?
- new Peninsulars?
- other? (maybe ideally something that will bolt up directly to your existing gears?)

Issues with 3208s seem to be about age, parts availability, and they're not wet-sleeved so have to be pulled if cylinder work is necessary (as in a full rebuild, not just injection pump replacement). Cost of outie and then back innie would be about the same, without regard to whether you're reinserting your own rebuilt engines... or new (running take-out) replacements.

Issues with "something else" replacements might arise with the rest of the drive-train. A thought: what gears do you have now? What other engines might they bolt to directly (if any)?

Were it me, I think I might consider whether cost of new pumps -- but with your own labor -- might be an OK interim step while you think about it some more. (Would greatly depend on what that coast might be, plus whether I thought I could actually pull it off myself... or not.)

-Chris

Thanks Chris is is really good perspective. I'm pretty mechanically inclined, having rebuilt the Chrysler 318s in my Trojan F32, but I'm a total newbie when it comes to all things diesel, so your overall input plus potential refit recommendations are most welcome.
 
Plus $1K core charge if not rebuildable but still a way better price than he is getting in Canada. Now can you get them shipped across the border???

Good question, I hadn't considered import implications, I'll have to look into that
 
As far as I know the low pressure pump and the injection pump are on the same body. They are on top of the block in the valley. Seawater in the pump would be a huge concern. How in the world did it get in there.

My opinion owning a pair of 3208s I would not rebuild or repower with 3208 rebuilds. They are good engines but long out of production. Finding parts is not bad now but beginning to get tough.

Ok I hadn't thought much about parts availability... A naturally aspirated 3208 was a thought. I wonder if there is a modern alternative that would matter up with my gearbox.. I'll have to research this.
 
Injection pumps are expensive, no doubt about that, but. Inside they are actually very similar to an engine. They can be rebuilt for around $1,500.

At least take one in to be looked at.

pete

I've almost got one out and I'm planning to at least get a second opinion, thank you for this
 
Thanks Chris is is really good perspective. I'm pretty mechanically inclined, having rebuilt the Chrysler 318s in my Trojan F32, but I'm a total newbie when it comes to all things diesel, so your overall input plus potential refit recommendations are most welcome.

We had an F32 Trojan with 318s too at one time.
 
That sounds great, and if you can get the engine's sorted at reasonable cost you could end up with a good boat.


I think next step is to get a really good assessment of what's wrong with the engines. Are both known to not work? Was there some event that led to that? I think you said they bar over? How does the oil look? Coolant? Fuel filters, especially any water in them? What's behind the whole "they sat too long is seawater" diagnosis? Did they physically sit in a pool of water, and if so, from where? Does other evidence support his, like a rusted pool water line? Or was there water in the fuel such that the insides of the pump were exposed to water? And if so, are there other signs of water in the fuel? It must have gotten in there somehow.


It's very possible that there is a ton more info that led to a correct conclusion by the mechanic. But from what we have heard so far, the diagnosis is not very credible. I'd even say highly suspect. And in a world where many techs just want a quick diagnosis (aka guess), change a part, and move on to the next job, thorough troubleshooting is an early casualty in the process, and you pay the price.


At this point I think you need to figure out two things with the engines. First is whether there really an a issue with the injection pumps, why both of them at the same time, what caused it, and how to prevent to again. It's quite a coincident if both pumps on both engines failed the same way at the same time, so that needs explaining. It's possible if there was a major water-in-fuel event, but there should be lots of other supporting evidence In other words, are the injection pumps really bad, and why?


Second, what else is wrong or weak on the engines? You want to have as full and accurate a scope of work to bring the engines back into service. Peel the onion now through diagnostics, not through a sequence of expensive repairs. A lazy tech will replace the injection pump, fire up the engine (hopefully), then see what repair is required next. With that approach you will know what you are getting yourself into only AFTER you are all the way into it. Fine for the tech, bad for you. Before you set out to fix anything expensive like injection pumps, confirm that there is no oil contamination, coolant contamination, check turbos for water ingestion or other issues, check compression, check value clearances for heavy wear indication, check fuel system for water or other contamination. Pressure test cooling system and raw water system (heat exchangers and aftercoolers can be VERY expensive to replace). I'm sure there is a ton more.

Thanks so much for this. I spoke to the mechanic that looked it over prior to my ownership, and when I did I don't think I asked the right questions. I'm going to try and get a hold of him again, now that I feel better equipped to ask the right ones, thanks to y'all. I'm also worried about the turbos, after cooling system, heat exchangers, which are also somewhat foreign to my experience with gas engines.
 
Reat TTs post carefully and try to follow his advice. You don’t want to blindly buy new injection pumps and then find that the engine needs tens of thousands more parts and work. Is there a Cat engine guru anywhere near you? It would be worth paying to bring one in to evaluate the engines before you do any work and invest thousands into maybe junk engines, hopefully not junk but get the best info before you make the first leap. Good luck, hoping that it goes well.

Honestly this feels like the most rational next step to me Dave
 
When I was re-powering my first sailboat I was told the parts for the peripherals will equal the engine costs. They were right.

So I think you're saying find the right engine, and double the price to be realistic about cost?
 
We had an F32 Trojan with 318s too at one time.

It's served me well for the past few years, and it's going to be my daily driver at least until I get this defever sorted out. This off-season I've added some down riggers and a modern fish finder so I can bag me some lake Ontario Salmon
 
Thanks so much for this. I spoke to the mechanic that looked it over prior to my ownership, and when I did I don't think I asked the right questions. I'm going to try and get a hold of him again, now that I feel better equipped to ask the right ones, thanks to y'all. I'm also worried about the turbos, after cooling system, heat exchangers, which are also somewhat foreign to my experience with gas engines.

I have Cummins 6CTAs in my boat. They are 450HP. I pulled one aftercooler to do a routine service on it. Boat is a 1998. I tried for a couple of days to get the core out of the housing without success. Now I am almost paranoid about the aftercoolers failing and then I have to rebuild the engine. One aftercooler is going to be very difficult to get back on so I had my mechanic look at it and he thinks he can do it. I did an emergency order from Cummins for a new $3,900 aftercooler that they predict will be here in about 100 days, emergency order…. I will have the mechanic put the new one on the difficult engine after I take it apart and lube it, Cummins doesn’t lube them prior to installing the aftercooler. Then I will have 2 aftercoolers to try and get one serviced and installed on the easy engine.

My point is check on all the parts you referenced above and get a ballpark idea of cost before you decide which way to go. I would hate to see you put new pumps on and then find out you need new head gaskets, rebuilt head, new aftercoolers, etc. the costs can be staggering when you are buying diesel parts. Once you know what the costs are and what the predicted part’s necessary to do the job, then you can make an informed decision as to how to proceed.

You might be able to find running take outs of a more recent engine that would fit your needs if the currently installed engines need too much work.
 
Ok I hadn't thought much about parts availability... A naturally aspirated 3208 was a thought. I wonder if there is a modern alternative that would matter up with my gearbox.. I'll have to research this.
My point about parts availability is with respect to a Cat 3208 repower or Cat 3208 full rebuild. Why spend $100 K or more for engines decades out of production? If you can be sure damage is limited to the fuel pump but the rest of the engines are OK that's another matter. Getting those Cats running again then treating them gently will be the most cost effective way to go. And develop a good relationship with a resourceful parts dept.
 
Not to chase you away, but you might want to check out the DeFever Forum as well:

https://defevercruisers.groups.io/g/Forum

If you post your situation there, odds are pretty good someone will come back who has been through that exact same situation, and you'll get specific information regarding re=powers that worked etc. Best of luck going forward, and Welcome to the forum!:thumb:
 
I just did a Google search and found several injection pumps for $2,000.
You may want to check different pump suppliers.
 
For sure, do your due diligence with a mechanic to see where the motors are truly at. With 10,000 hours on them though, they're getting close to end of life which is why I'd be leery to dump much money into them.
What may end up being the solution is to just pick up some rebuilt 3208 Naturals as these would bolt right up to your current tranny. Heres a shop that sells "short block" 3208 N's completely rebuilt for $9000 each. Then you can bolt up the rest of the stuff you need. Maybe the best way to go eventually. Plenty of parts out there for 3208's.......
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2919461264...044&customid=e9cfc91e526d170d55c1ad0074415f65
 
What @Taras is saying makes great sense, except the OP said this would be his lifetime boat. I don't recall what speed he wanted to be able to achieve, but those heading into retirement with "normal" levels of finances usually find themselves slowing down. If that is the case and he'll be cruising the typical 7-8 knots on his "lifetime" boat then I'd say look into a complete repower using newer more fuel efficient and much, much smaller engines. Power to your use case. Twin mechanical engines running at 50%-70% of their rating, at your desired Vcr, would be a perfect match.
 
Boats and engines are designed to work together. If you are going to repower, select engines the closely match the specs of the 3208. Under sizing the power plants to safe money on fuel is asking trouble. You can always run slower and burn less fuel but when you need to get the boat moving you will need the hp and especially the torque to get out of a situation and potentially, harms way. Ask yourself, would you want to negotiate Haul Over Inlet under powered? https://www.google.com/search?q=hau...#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:288075e6,vid:5FL9JlA6NSs
 
I own a Defever 49, which is roughly the size of your 51. Mine is powered with 2 x Ford Lehman 2715E engines and they deliver about 120 Hp each. Their lifetime should be around 25.000 hours and they are not that expensive. I just bought 2 overhauled blocks for 5000 Euro a piece. Guess you will be able to get them, with gearboxes, coolers and fuelpump for about 10.000 - 12.000 each.
And my guess is they will fit without a problem in your Defever, it might be an option.
 

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