Driving from the fly bridge or not?

I'm a dinosaur, I like new stuff like electronics but have difficulty trying to figure them out.

View attachment 63671

There was a boat, Great Harbour I think, that sank primarily because a battery was not properly secured and damaged a stuffing box. Sure an ER check might well have saved it. But so would securing the battery, and that's the better approach.

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It was a Florida Bay Coaster, as noted here on TF:
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/steel-away-552.html

How would you feel if you traveled for 12 weeks sometimes 18 hours a day checking ER every 2 hours and you had a catastrophic problem 15 minutes after you did a ER check

Greetings,
Mr. g. 12 weeks for 18hrs/day? Wow. Sleep deprived for sure...

gaston said:

How would you feel if you traveled for 12 weeks sometimes 18 hours a day checking ER every 2 hours and you had a catastrophic problem 15 minutes after you did a ER check

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In similarity:

How would you feel if you always took care of yourself and then had an early life heart attack??

In both of those, as well as regarding many other instances that could/can/do happen, if I were lucky enough to stay alive... I'd feel that Murphy's Law is never far off my beam!

However, the down fall regarding either mentioned instance does not diminish the importance of ER checks and/or always taking care of oneself.

Analogy to Murphy's Law is "Shat Happens"; no matter how carefully avoidance techniques are applied!

Miz Trom said:

View attachment 63671It was a Florida Bay Coaster, as noted here on TF:
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/steel-away-552.html

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My apologies. Thanks for the correction.

We are all comparing different boats in different circumstances.

I don't have a flybridge, but I have great 360 degree vision from the saloon and I can open the windows on all four sides for good ventilation. A flybridge would have limited additional benefits in my case other than extra real estate.

In regards to checks while underway, it depends on the situation. If I am cruising along in benign conditions at moderate rpm I might not do engine checks all day.
If I am pushing the engine hard, in high winds and/or rough seas where a shutdown could put me in a dangerous situation I might lift the hatches for a check every hour or two.

It only takes a minute or two, with the boat on autopilot. I don't have cameras, but I prefer to look, listen and smell. A camera only looks.

Should also ask just how often dose anyone find a problem on there 2 hour visit to the ER and what did they find ?

I once knew I had a sticky bilge pump switch and thought I better check it regularly on the 12 hour trip home. The seas were rough with about 4-5 foot waves on the beam, but the rolling steadied out after I the sails up. Less than an hour into the journey, I lifted the hatch and found water up to the engine starter motor. The hose had slipped off the water muffler and was pumping into the bilge.
I now have a backup bilge pump and alarm, but at that time the check saved my ass.

I can't think of any other serious issues I've discovered; only the odd drip or the fan belt guard starting to come loose. But I do enjoy getting to know my engine intimately, normal temperatures at all parts of the cooling circuit, the sounds and vibrations at different revs, etc.

gaston said:

Should also ask just how often dose anyone find a problem on there 2 hour visit to the ER and what did they find ?

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Starboard engine raw water pump had begun spraying/leaking.

psneeld said:

Like I said...my experience says check a few things often as my engine is far from new....

And operating things is totally different than maintaining them.

As to how it relates to flying bridges...well, I guess experience explains that as well.

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I'm with you. I've never flown an aircraft, however, I've jumped from everything from C5 Galaxy to a Huey, from way up. System and equipment checks are and should be routine. Cursory (eyeball equipment) inspections should take place as a discipline, regardless of what your driving.

Another note: My port engine antifreeze tank was always empty after a run. I couldn't figure out why for awhile. I'm not a mechanic. So, I had my wife start the port engine as I sat there, noticed water coming from a piece of metal attached at the rear of the engine. Exhaust Manifold, as it turned out was broken at the bottom.

Here's my point. When I inspected the engine prior to starting I saw black exhaust evidence around the area of the manifold. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS LOOKING AT!! Experience the hard way. A camera could have saved me lots of axiety, for I was very concerned that I hurt the engine.

Sorry, if I took the thread in another direction. Over---

gaston said:

Should also ask just how often dose anyone find a problem on there 2 hour visit to the ER and what did they find ?

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And even better to know whether / how that condition could have been detected without a physical inspection -- whether my conventional gauges, cameras, alarms, or otherwise.

As others have noted, conventional equipment won't substitute for a sense of smell. And in a boat, unusual noise and vibration are best discovered by physical inspection. That said, I have built sensor substitutes. One instrument, which has 4 arduino driven sensors, monitors particulate matter and various organic and inorganic gasses. It is quite sensitive (I had my wife merely walk past a prototype after putting on her hair spray and the thing went wild). I am working on the code to determine baseline at various engine rpms (the higher the rpm, the lower the concentrations), but am optimistic that it will learn to do a better job than I can. I also have vibration and noise sensors, that also sample and compare at a bunch of frequencies against rpm-specific baseline measurements.

gaston said:

Should also ask just how often dose anyone find a problem on there 2 hour visit to the ER and what did they find ?

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Perhaps once a month we find something. Nothing critical, as we find things before they become critical. Typically it's something like seeing a Racor that will need changing before the day is over or a belt that needs tightening, of a very small leak around a connection that just requires a small twist. When your trip is a 50 hour ocean run then finding something minuscule 4 hours in may prevent a sizable problem later. We also detect if an engine needs oil added. Finding a loose connection on the hose from toilet to holding tank is very worthwhile. We have gauges galore and cameras but these are all things before the gauges would show and not detectable on camera. I can't say with any certainty that any of these would have become a problem, but can say I feel better when they're found early.

Now as to the subject of bridge vs lower helm, they don't impact our ER checks at all. The slight additional walk just isn't significant.

I guess I'm living dangerously. I have carpeting and underlayment on my salon floor, so hourly checking is out of the question. I do periodically visually inspect the engine room and check the oil levels. But I do use my ears constantly.

No one has discussed the personal danger inherent in engine
room checks underway. Burns, falls, contact with moving parts such as shafts and belts. Contact with sharp objects, being thrown by an unexpected wave or wake etc. I for one find it much safer to check things after a run or before. Engines can be run at the dock or at anchor. Much safer me thinks to keep an eye on gauges underway.

hmason said:

No one has discussed the personal danger inherent in engine
room checks underway. Burns, falls, contact with moving parts such as shafts and belts. Contact with sharp objects, being thrown by an unexpected wave or wake etc. I for one find it much safer to check things after a run or before. Engines can be run at the dock or at anchor. Much safer me thinks to keep an eye on gauges underway.

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To large extent what you say is true. That said and however... IMO, while on-site taking visual account we're not supposed to place ourselves in precarious positions near running engines. As well, the nose knows! Yes checking gauges many times per hour is very important; but, so is visual and smell factors on a longer duration scheduled basis.

hmason said:

No one has discussed the personal danger inherent in engine
room checks underway. Burns, falls, contact with moving parts such as shafts and belts. Contact with sharp objects, being thrown by an unexpected wave or wake etc. I for one find it much safer to check things after a run or before. Engines can be run at the dock or at anchor. Much safer me thinks to keep an eye on gauges underway.

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Very well said, Howard. Some ERs are not conducive to safe checks while underway. When you think about it, it's relatively simple in most areas to be able to find a safe place to drift and shut down for the 5 minute ER check.

Sounds like I'm lucky to have 3 ER entry points on my 34 - fwd bulkhead under the steps, salon double hatches and aft lazarette. My normal entry point is the fwd access because pulling the salon carpet takes some effort. Even then, I'm doing the Army man crawl to check temps and fluids.

A couple video cameras provide some visual reassurance that all appears normal. Maybe it's a false sense of security, but it seems to help me.

hmason said:

No one has discussed the personal danger inherent in engine
room checks underway. Burns, falls, contact with moving parts such as shafts and belts. Contact with sharp objects, being thrown by an unexpected wave or wake etc. I for one find it much safer to check things after a run or before. Engines can be run at the dock or at anchor. Much safer me thinks to keep an eye on gauges underway.

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Good point and reason some ER's aren't conducive to checks or require lesser checks. We also never go to the ER without the person at the helm fully aware so they can keep an eye on us and await the return. They will keep the ER camera on screen. Also, we carry walkie talkie to engine room.

God bless Art DeFever for understanding the importance of spacious safe ERs. In rough seas I pop open the ER door and with IR gun can shoot oil and water temps as well as see most of the critical things that could prove problematic.

Of course the lifting of hatches on a bumpy day can forestall visuals. Howard, is your GB a hatch lifter? If so, can't say as I blame you for hanging loose.

BB, how in the heck do two way radios work in an ER with a noise level pushing 120 dbs?

hmason said:

No one has discussed the personal danger inherent in engine
room checks underway. Burns, falls, contact with moving parts such as shafts and belts. Contact with sharp objects, being thrown by an unexpected wave or wake etc. I for one find it much safer to check things after a run or before. Engines can be run at the dock or at anchor. Much safer me thinks to keep an eye on gauges underway.

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Not only that, but the noise level in the ER when running is of a volume potentially injurious to hearing, (I've measured it at over 100dB), especially if repeated often, and who claims to put on ear muffs when they do the check..? Hands up..! And if you do, you're cancelling out the benefit of hearing that things are running normally, which we all agree is important. That and the smell, and both hearing and smell just need a hatch to be briefly popped at most. Last but not least is that it is not possible to check coolant levels while running without risking serious scalding, (not to mention losing all the header tank coolant - ever taken the cap off your car radiator when still hot..?), and checking oil levels while running risks a hot oil spray as well. So all you can do is check for spraying type leaks from broken joins in hoses, etc, but a good check of those at start-up before leaving serves as well, that and a check when back at the dock at close-down.

I have a confession I was a very naughty boy this weekend I didn't check the ER for 5 days and guess what nothing happened and this happened the week before and the week before that as well .

Greetings,
Mr. PB. Yup, 2 sets of ear muffs standing by outside the ER door.

All

Boating is inherently dangerous (as compared to watching TV). �� You assume certain risks, I use cameras and don't do a physical inspection while running if it can be avoided. If I have to go to the engine room I slow the engines down to barely making headway. I do have ear muffs but usually can't find them. ��

sunchaser said:

God bless Art DeFever for understanding the importance of spacious safe ERs. In rough seas I pop open the ER door and with IR gun can shoot oil and water temps as well as see most of the critical things that could prove problematic.

Of course the lifting of hatches on a bumpy day can forestall visuals. Howard, is your GB a hatch lifter? If so, can't say as I blame you for hanging loose.

BB, how in the heck do two way radios work in an ER with a noise level pushing 120 dbs?

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My GB has 3 hatches in the saloon floor that provide ER access. They are not hinged and are extremely heavy. Definitely a no go underway. I also have a door access from the below decks storage area which makes access easy. Could I open the door and peek inside? Sure, but this would not allow a reasonable inspection. If I did enter the ER, the only areas I could inspect underway would be the inboard sides of the engines. The outboard sides would be a dangerous situation to say the least.

I feel a whole lot more comfortable making my inspections before the trip and immediately after. An injury in an engine room underway could be life threatening. Even a non life threatening injury could start a cascade of events that I for one would not even care to think about.

There are many boats I've looked at with serious thoughts of purchase. Lack of ER or engine compartment accessibility was reason that some simply did not pass muster. I must have quick, easy, wide open access to engines with fully standing head room in most if not all the areas. Also, the engine every side needs to be either readily accessible or at least relitively [some contortions not excluded] accessible for repairs/maintenance.

Art

Having a requirement of a standing room engine compartment with access to the entire engine/s really limits your choices unless you approach 60 feet or more.

Best of luck. I've never had a standing engine room that meets your specs but I'm now looking and would like to find it. So far the GB 54 (now discontinued) and Marlow 49 and up have been what I have found that meets my other requirements too.

Bigsfish said:

Art

Having a requirement of a standing room engine compartment with access to the entire engine/s really limits your choices unless you approach 60 feet or more.

Best of luck. I've never had a standing engine room that meets your specs but I'm now looking and would like to find it. So far the GB 54 (now discontinued) and Marlow 49 and up have been what I have found that meets my other requirements too.

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Big - Open-up piano hinged, gas levered, 5'6" x 5'6" total open stand-up area double hatches in middle of salon sole - with no center beam. Then step down onto teak platform in bilge center. Then do as you like/need to accomplish.

This wide-open twin engine, gen set, house batt bank compartment feature, among other attributes that both my wife and I require in a boat, is one reason we own and really like using our 34' tri cabin Tollycraft.

Pete

I get your point, you can't check your ER due to poor access, boat size and desire.

But for those of us that have good access, wear ear muffs, know where to shoot the IR gun, know what pink stuff in the bilge can mean, look at shaft logs and and check temps of same, assess if the drip is fresh or salt water, look at stabilizer function, assess AP pump plumbing, look at alternator belts, etc etc and emerge safely after spending 5 minutes ----

Just leave us alone in our blissful ignorance,

We require muffs too, but the walkie talkies have lights and the person in the ER can use it. The highest decibel level we've recorded is just under 100 and generally it's in the 80's. It's one reason we aren't as big a fan of CAT's as others, the noise factor.

The one tool that doesn't get mentioned that we use on checks periodically is FLIR. Our two methods of checking for leaks are gloves and FLIR.

BandB

Could you explain your procedure when using Flir? While I have Flir in not sure of how to use it in the e give room.

Thanks.