Consumer Checking In

Tkgc · Sep 6, 2022

PGreeting

Consuming info, looking and learning!
I have 1000's of hours running boats in FL.
Biggest one yet is a 30 foot Pearson.
I did help bring a 50 foot Searay from Tampa to Bay St Louis.

In a couple weeks I am boarding a Heritage East 42 and will be doing a lot of time at the Helm.

I have tons of local knowledge.
I am very cautious while boating. I never drink and boat, because boating is a much better buzz!

Someone else is buying the boat, fuel and food.
Basically he is saying. Let's go out for atleast a week. With his wife on board.
The route is totally up to me.

The weather window is still to far out to decide a route. The vessel is in Panama City Beach. Home port will be Pensacola

My concern is the steep learning curve.

The owner admittedly has 0 boating experience.

As I am 60 years old and permanently disabled, this is a life long dream come true.

Anyway I am in the process of consuming as much relevant info as possible.

I am bringing 2 jugs with line and weights to practice backing into a slip.

Thanks
Tim

Comodave · Sep 6, 2022

Welcome aboard.

O C Diver · Sep 7, 2022

Hire a captain for a day to show you and the owner how to handle and dock the boat. Simply, when it comes to that much of a leap in size and windage ( over what you have experience with), there will be a significant learning curve. Running the boat in open water and navigating local areas may be less of a challenge for you, but putting a big boat to the dock, possibly with wind and current, solo (you have 2 people with zero boating experience on board), is a recipe for an insurance claim.

Ted

Hippocampus · Sep 7, 2022

I’m transitioning from sail to power. Issues to learn docking.
Windage. Motor seems to have a lot less in the water and moves very differently than sail in response to wind. Even big ones move a lot. Need to plan ahead.
Steerage. C/w sail they steer like crap at slow speed. Often need a burst of throttle to get a response. Have taken to steer with thrusters at extreme low speeds leaving rudder in neutral. They wander backing up. Prop walk and wash effect varies on speed and conditions non linearly.
Unfortunately every boat handles differently. Other than experience there’s no apparent way to learn a particular boat.
A captain for a day is a very good idea. But adding a week or three of actual docking while increasing the difficulty is good as well.
You don’t state your disability. Up on the flybridge (preferred spot for docking) sight lines can still be difficult. You may need to move around quickly to see stuff then get back to the helm even with cameras. You need good situational awareness which means good eyesight and visual processing.
You need good communication with the person on your deck. Both people need to be using the same terms. You need to avoid having anyone on the dock screwing you up (if there is anyone “helping”).
I’ve had this boat still the fall. I’m still not confident. I did have a skilled person teach me for 2 days. It was helpful but just the first step on a big ladder.

lwarden · Sep 7, 2022

Do you have experience with a twin screw boat? That boat has a lot of windage but with twin screws if you are experiences with them should be no problem. Since it's an aft cabin with no cockpit ingress and egress from the dock can be a challenge, and depending on your disability might make line handling a challenge. The couple will need to practice docking and line handling while you master the boat handling. I third the comment about hiring a captain for a day or so.

With some training for a day or so you should be fine depending on where you plan to go and the sort of conditions you face.

Tkgc · Sep 7, 2022

Great Advise

Excellent advice thank you!
Now I have to pitch it to the owner.
More on him later.

Hiring a Captain to ride from Panama City to Pensacola will be my first pitch to him.

He thinks a H.E. 42 ? deck trawler ( Sorry for covert description ) is gonna take him and his wife to the Bahamas and beyond. Open water crossings.
He is 80 and a triple bypass survivor.

I know i know.
The pastor of our church and i have tried very hard to list reasons why (buying this boat) is a really bad idea.

I know they will be safer with me on board then without.

I read the info on following seas and recommendations to coastal cruse with this hull type.
Durning some massive consumption last night.

This is a fantastic site with an incredible amount of info.
But, ,
You see I understand the difference between an explanation and practical application thanks to my gig in the military.

However the owner does not yet grasp the how steep the learning curve is. The amount of work just in cruzing. Never mind at dock.

S.A situation awareness is one thing I have practiced while boating for a very long time.

My disability, no right leg.

In closing I'd like to share one of my biggest life lessons. I just wish it would not have taken me so long to learn it.

The greatest test of intelligence is not how long it takes you to know it all.
It's how long after that to realize you don't!
20 years ago I realized I did not know it all.
I give myself a D+.
My son is 24 and understands already that's a solid B+

Tim

O C Diver · Sep 7, 2022

Tkgc said:
He thinks a H.E. 42 ? deck trawler ( Sorry for covert description ) is gonna take him and his wife to the Bahamas and beyond. Open water crossings.
He is 80 and a triple bypass survivor.

With his lack of experience, them going to the Bahamas isn't likely to end well. Unfortunately, you're enabling him. Best advice is to let a captain (disinterested party) show him everything he doesn't know. Nothing against 80 year olds, but he's not a good candidate to take up cruising.

Ted

psneeld · Sep 7, 2022

Simple, local cruising, low initial knowledge necessary.

The longer the distance, the more unfamiliar the water/weather/complexity of the cruise the more experience necessary.

1000 years of part time boating in one location and focusing on the basics is about 1/1000 of what the vast majority of boaters have experience in and needed for safe, long term cruising.

Boating cruises like the loop gave been compared to a years worth of day cruises.... pretty accurate depending on where you start, how much you bite off in a day, your general background, aptitude for boating, and how fast you ask for local info and digest it. Newbies successfully complete loop type cruising all the time, not all, but most.

You start discussing overnight passages, evening landfalls and the open water between Florida and the Bahamas and a new can of worms besets you.

Leaving the Bahamas and heading down island takes a whole new set of experiences to be comfy AND safe.

Not saying I know it all too, just rescued or assisted plenty who I know didn't follow the above advice.

Jmarsh203 · Sep 7, 2022

If he reads give him the book cruising under power, that will inadvertently tell him he has the wrong boat for the job if he wants to do serious offshore work. The boat certainly looks capable enough to make the Bahamas if you picked the right day and knew what you were doing, the boat could Definitly do the keys but don’t think I would be taking it down into the Caribbean, would be a comfortable great loop boat. Boats of lesser capability regularly make the open water jump from Tampa to appalachacola so light offshore work can be done if proper consideration for weather is taken . With where the boat is now Why not start with taking the boat to Nola, open ish water but still semi protected with lots of turn offs and safe harbors along the way. Baby steps, no matter the book knowledge (which doesn’t seem like he has or he would have bought a different boat if offshore work was his desire)nobody should be starting the beginning of there boating lifestyle with long distance multi day passages even if the boat was capable. Lots of things to learn by experience and day hops before large passages should be considered. 80 does seem a little late in the game but if he is capable of standing by himself and can hold onto a grab handle don’t take his dream, may be the best thing for him to extend his life and will more than likely be the thing he is remembering as he is on deaths door.

hmason · Sep 7, 2022

I jumped from 46’ to 65’ and it’s a learning curve for me. I’ve owned boats for 56 years, sail, and power. Lessons for you and the owners are highly recommended.

Tkgc · Sep 8, 2022

hmason said:
I jumped from 46’ to 65’ and it’s a learning curve for me. I’ve owned boats for 56 years, sail, and power. Lessons for you and the owners are highly recommended.

No disrespect intended but.

On 7/10/22
A licensed commercial Capt sank a 50 foot sport fishing boat in 35 foot of water at a marked wreak that has been in the same location since 1920. It's less then 2 miles from the pass.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nps.gov/articles/ussmassachusetts.htm&ved=2ahUKEwid7azhr4T6AhXUlmoFHS_LAQoQFnoECEoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw01TiRwxRnILhkzk_eU_ci8

He put 9 souls in the water while chartering a trip. Only 8 had pdf's

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/10/1110774990/coast-guard-boat-rescue-florida

I guessing the class was not much help. Not funny I know.
But sinking a 50 foot boat in 35 foot of water 1.5 nm off the beach at a marked reef is not good.

I have fished the Mass hundreds and hundreds of times The turret is above the water at low tide.
In the picture you can see the turret, also the stern of the 50 footer is on the bottom.
Rumor has it the Massachusetts has sank more boats after it was sunk then before.

I am very aware of the danger factors involved.

Tkgc · Sep 8, 2022

Jmarsh203 said:
If he reads give him the book cruising under power, that will inadvertently tell him he has the wrong boat for the job if he wants to do serious offshore work. The boat certainly looks capable enough to make the Bahamas if you picked the right day and knew what you were doing, the boat could Definitly do the keys but don’t think I would be taking it down into the Caribbean, would be a comfortable great loop boat. Boats of lesser capability regularly make the open water jump from Tampa to appalachacola so light offshore work can be done if proper consideration for weather is taken . With where the boat is now Why not start with taking the boat to Nola, open ish water but still semi protected with lots of turn offs and safe harbors along the way. Baby steps, no matter the book knowledge (which doesn’t seem like he has or he would have bought a different boat .....

Thanks for the book recommendation.
I am ordering it.

However with the hull speed and the current speed I don't believe we could arrive at NOLA in a reasonable amount of time.

Most of my fishing friends over there over power thier boats because of the extreme distances they travel to fish.

I was thinking an island hopping trip. If weather is permitting.
Round to Horn to Ship then Chandler.
Fort Massachusetts on ship is an impressive sight

https://www.nps.gov/guis/learn/historyculture/fort-massachusetts.htm

Maybe pop in to Biloxi for a nice dinner.

Not sure how many hours I have running a twin screw boat. Not more the 60 for sure. I did some swimming for SeaTow out of Port Canaveral about 36 years ago.
That was on a 39' Shamrock with twin Cummings, also the 50 foot Searay trip. Not much.

The Searay trip was insane. A story for another time.
It started with to port motor spitting out the dip stick.
Then a friend calling me saying. I have someone on the way to pick you up, please come and help.

Thank you all for the solid advise!
Back to consuming

Tim

Question is there a way to post links that works?

O C Diver · Sep 8, 2022

Tkgc said:
No disrespect intended but.

On 7/10/22
A licensed commercial Capt sank a 50 foot sport fishing boat in 35 foot of water at a marked wreak that has been in the same location since 1920. It's less then 2 miles from the pass.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oQFnoECEoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw01TiRwxRnILhkzk_eU_ci8

He put 9 souls in the water while chartering a trip. Only 8 had pdf's

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/10/1110774990/coast-guard-boat-rescue-florida

I guessing the class was not much help. Not funny I know.
But sinking a 50 foot boat in 35 foot of water 1.5 nm off the beach at a marked reef is not good.

I have fished the Mass hundreds and hundreds of times The turret is above the water at low tide.
In the picture you can see the turret, also the stern of the 50 footer is on the bottom.
Rumor has it the Massachusetts has sank more boats after it was sunk then before.

I am very aware of the danger factors involved.

I'm pretty sure hmason was referring to you taking lessons on putting the boat to the dock, as you indicated you have no experience with that size boat. It was pretty clear from his post that although he has lots of experience, he sought training for the increased size of his new boat.

Ted

Gdavid · Sep 8, 2022

I cannot speak to your abilities and skills regarding that boat, so I won't.

I would be most concerned about becoming familiar with that particular boat, its systems and operations as the owner is unfamiliar with it. This is something you can definitely do something proactively to address, if the boat has not been surveyed yet, ask if you can tag along, a good surveyor will be examining not only the condition of the systems but how they operate, what switches or valves do and when should they be in a particular configuration. Specifically I am referring to operations for selecting fuel tanks, finding tank levels, changing fuel filters, operating the navigation systems, where are circuit breakers or fuses for the thruster(s) and windlass.
If manuals exist for the boat, ask to review them and walk through the boat to ensure nothing has been changed from the original configuration. I you need to figure it out on your own, much better to do so at the dock when you are under not rush or pressure.

hmason · Sep 8, 2022

Right you are Ted. Exactly my meaning.

mvweebles · Sep 8, 2022

As i read the thread this morning, my first thoughts were to hire a captain for a few hours of close quarter training. As long as thr OP is reasonably adept at mechanical things, should pick it up fairly quickly.

But then I got to the part about the disabilities. This may sound insensitive, but I'll say it anyway. A totally newbie owner who's 80 and a triple bypass survivor. Captain, who is stepping way-up in class, is missing his right leg.

What could possibly go wrong?

Peter

I'll edit this by saying I realize disabled folks do some amazing feats. I recently read an interview of a circumnavigator who was a paraplegic. Even as someone who has taught many, many people chose quarter maneuvering, this is above my pay grade. Maybe over the course of months, but this sounds interesting

Tkgc · Sep 8, 2022

O C Diver said:
I'm pretty sure hmason was referring to you taking lessons on putting the boat to the dock, as you indicated you have no experience with that size boat. It was pretty clear from his post that although he has lots of experience, he sought training for the increased size of his new boat.

Ted

My bad sorry

psneeld · Sep 8, 2022

Not sure boat handling requires 2 legs.

I have known of at least 2 skippers in wheelchairs that manage sportfish solo from the flybridge.

Of course they arranged for line handlers when arriving, but getting in the slip wasnt an issue for them.

Again, they are careful of how much they bite off, but I have yet to run a piwer boat that had control pedals.

With thrusters and remotes, my guess it is easier than ever.

Plus, the larger the vessel, often tbe less athletic each individual's participation is as long as the boathandler is good enough.

I pass along reservations on crew capabilities said so far, but they are more to be extra vigalent, but not coplete showstoppers.

As I posted before, keep it simple at first, and consider some training is usually never bad.

Tkgc · Sep 8, 2022

mvweebles said:
As i read the thread this morning, my first thoughts were to hire a captain for a few hours of close quarter training. As long as thr OP is reasonably adept at mechanical things, should pick it up fairly quickly.

But then I got to the part about the disabilities. This may sound insensitive, but I'll say it anyway. A totally newbie owner who's 80 and a triple bypass survivor. Captain, who is stepping way-up in class, is missing his right leg.

What could possibly go wrong?

Peter

I'll edit this by saying I realize disabled folks do some amazing feats. I recently read an interview of a circumnavigator who was a paraplegic. Even as someone who has taught many, many people chose quarter maneuvering, this is above my pay grade. Maybe over the course of months, but this sounds interesting

Hey I'm old school. my real friends called me wheels when I got out of hospital after 88 days. Now they call me limp.

It's real no problem with me, please speak your mind.

Survey start 7:30 am tomorrow.
If sale proceeds the Panama City to Pensacola trip should start on 9/16.
I am going out with a dive boat to get some more seat time on a twin screw vessel.

Again thank you all.

Tim

backinblue · Sep 8, 2022

My perspective is that 80 yo triple bypass survivor doesn't end well regardless. I applaud him at this point in his life to embrace a new adventure. He could play it safe and stay home on the couch for whatever time he has left, but is that living or just waiting to die? He may soon realize that cruising is harder than he imagined and he is in over his head, but better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

mvweebles · Sep 8, 2022

Tkgc said:
Hey I'm old school. my real friends called me wheels when I got out of hospital after 88 days. Now they call me limp.

It's real no problem with me, please speak your mind.

Survey start 7:30 am tomorrow.
If sale proceeds the Panama City to Pensacola trip should start on 9/16.
I am going out with a dive boat to get some more seat time on a twin screw vessel.

Again thank you all.

Tim

First, a soft apology. My comments were a bit too harsh. I think there are some obvious challenges here, but I gotta believe this would be one of the easier hurdles you've had to clear. But I do think you need to find the right teacher who can spend time with you to really understand the pressure points of docking and help you develop Plan B if needed. If I recall correctly, Tristan Jones, a 1970s era single handed cruiser lost both legs late in life and continued sailing, though with line handlers and such as Psneeld states.

Very little physical strength is needed to run a boat, but does require patience which I'm sure you have in abundance, as do older people. But sometimes when conditions are difficult, being able to move quickly is important, which could be a gap for you both. Knowing how to recognize these conditions and having a Plan B will make life easier.

Allow plenty of time for learning. Best success. And again, apologies.

Peter

backinblue · Sep 8, 2022

I was recently in rough conditions for about 90 mins getting to my home slip. I was surprised how much my leg muscles felt like I had climbed a mountain that day. So although it doesn't take strength to run a boat, it can take some strength just holding on and bracing yourself agains the sea.

psneeld · Sep 8, 2022

backinblue said:
I was recently in rough conditions for about 90 mins getting to my home slip. I was surprised how much my leg muscles felt like I had climbed a mountain that day. So although it doesn't take strength to run a boat, it can take some strength just holding on and bracing yourself agains the sea.

There are many ways to deal with disabilities, let the disabled worry about them as most of us have no clue.

I see many exhausted after a day's cruise where some are fresh and ready for anything.... experience is a great teacher and the OP said he was an experienced boater.

Tkgc · Sep 8, 2022

backinblue said:
My perspective is that 80 yo triple bypass survivor doesn't end well regardless. I applaud him at this point in his life to embrace a new adventure. He could play it safe and stay home on the couch for whatever time he has left, but is that living or just waiting to die? He may soon realize that cruising is harder than he imagined and he is in over his head, but better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.

Awesome.

Tkgc · Sep 9, 2022

Ya I should have said earlier he is a retired Navy pilot and one of the few surviving Vietnam Vets I know.

He wants me to teach him how to fish he has never been into that stuff. At his age admirable to say the least.

This time of year the blue water comes close to shore in Pensacola. Black fin and Mahi as well as other game fish come in close. There is fall Cobra migration as well, they head east in the fall around 100 yards or so from the beach.

YouTube sleigh ride pensacola you'll see what I mean.

I have a spool of Andies 500 pound mono. I'm thinking of dragging a skirt about 50 yards back tied straight to a cleat. Time to go skiing.
I also have a very short roller tipped deep sea rod with a 6/0 electric reel should be fun.

In shore a popping cork and a silver dollar size pin fish will produce a Reds or Speckled Trout. We also have a pretty good Flounder migration this time of year, a jig head and a grub works well.

Before I got Necrotizing Fascalitis, we were fishing alot on my 18 foot Boston Whaler Outrage.
I had to sell my Whaler when I got out of the hospital, but I still have my MacGregor 26x with a very low hour 50 Yahama 4 stroke.

If any of you all come through Pensacola, PM me if nothing else. I'll give you a hot fishing tip consisting of where and how.

Tim

Tkgc · Sep 9, 2022

mvweebles said:
First, a soft apology. My comments were a bit too harsh.

I don't believe they were harsh.
Honestly no apology needed.

Picture 1 is the prospective buyer.
2,3 show bottom while out of the water today

Cheers
Tim

thataway · Sep 12, 2022

I live in Pensacola, and have a number of hours on a Symbol 41 I owned for 4 years, very similar to the Heritage Nova 42 (one of which I considered). Incidentally I sold that because it was too big to take care of (not handle) when I was in my late 60's. Yes, the boat can go to the Bahamas on a good day--but they may wait weeks to get back. Also the boat should have a water maker and good generator for that type of cruising. How about stabilizers? At slow speed, these could make it to the Caribbean--certainly not an ideal boat however. I believe they have 500 gallons of diesel--maybe 450 usable, with some margin. If you could drop down to a slow enough speed to use 1/2 to one mile per gallon, then the "Thorny path" would be doable to the Caribbean. However not comfortable with beam seas a part of the way.. Also this boat is terrible for fishing. High freeboard--who is going to gaff the fish? Where from? Who is going to run the boat while one works the line, and another uses the gaff from the swim step, and no "Staples" to hang onto?)

I see several issues--who is going to run the boat once they have been :"Trained"? I advocate equal training for wives. If she does not do well with the hired captain then a special class for women only. (probably 2 days of captain would be better--the training for the owner-and one for the wife, -not the OP!)

These boats have high freeboard, and difficult to get onto floating docks from the "Sun Deck " aft or the side decks. Someone has go to the swim step. This puts them at risk of falling overboard especially if the boat is suddenly put into gear and they are not holding on. Also a steep ladder to the swim grid. The swim grid is not visible from the flying bridge helm.

First buy a set or 3 of Ear Tec duplex intercom sets. That will be the best $370 he spends. Spend the time with the teacher docking at real docks, not just milk jugs (although this is an excellent idea)

With two aboard, if anchoring, one will be on the bow, handling the anchor--and one handling the helm. Same for docking. Who is most capable. Also with the history (and having had two triple bypasses and still alive at age 86) there has to be someone to get the boat home if there is a fatal issue. That is why my wife is a very capable boat handler. She once had to get our 62' motor sailor 60 miles to a port when my leg was paralyzed due to a spinal injury and I was incapacitated.

Be sure the fuel tanks are OK--or have been replaced. This is a weak point in these boats. You have to remove the engines to get the tanks out--and also cut up some of the floor (unless you want to cut the side of the boat out). Figure about $20,000 for each tank replacement.

I know the gulf coast very well, and have plyed it for 30 years. The run from Panama City to Pensacola is a milk run in comparison to many other parts of the US coast line (or the Bahamas for that matter.). I have also done the entire eastern coast as well as the entire Western coast from Icy Straits AK to Mt. Desert Island Maine, with the exception of the Bay of Campeche. I have made 3 transits of the Panama Canal as skipper of my own boat, as well as a year+ in Central American and Mexico, as well as over 6 months in the Caribbean. The point is that small cruisers can do many of these runs, under certain circumstances. My boats all had ranges of close to 3000 miles under power alone. I would be reluctant to do that with a boat like the Nova unless it held in excess of 1000 gallons of fuel.

How well can you get up and down the straight ladder (safety issue)--I have known a number of very capable amputee boat owners, but one takes some time to learn all of the tricks of each boat. Just riding on a boat, does not make you an expert on handling.

I have 4 friends who are doing the "Great Loop". They all had had many years in 25' boats, but going to a 45' Californian (very similar to the Nova 42 with the aft sundeck). They have done over 3000 miles and spent over 6 months on the boat underway almost every day. They had 2 days of training before taking over the "new boat". They still prefer to anchor out, and take the dinghy ashore, rather than dock in some of the more challenging slips in marinas. I agree that the Heritage Nova 42 is a great boat for the Loop (if the air draft is less than 18 feet. (That might require that the Bimini and arch be lowered?? )

Send them to see me if they want to talk about going to far away lands--I am on upper Perdido bay off old Lillian Hwy.

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