Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-07-2021, 05:10 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
NWpilot's Avatar
 
City: Vancouver, WA
Vessel Name: Yukon Jack
Vessel Model: 30' Tollycraft sedan
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 26
Wagner steering cylinder replacement

My Tollycraft 30' sedan has a worn out steering cylinder. I personally couldn't figure out how to tear it down so I found a local hydraulic cylinder repair shop and left it for repair. It's not going well as all the shops are busy and these guys keep making excuses.

It's now June and my boat sits in it's berth so I went to find a new cylinder.

I emailed Wagner (it's a series 700 Wagner cylinder) and they replied that it was discontinued and they do not have a drop in replacement.

It's a simple cylinder with 1-1/4" bore and 7" stroke so I don't see any reason that I can't use most any cylinder on the market. Has anyone here ever replaced the wagner cylinder with another brand and if so, what one did you use.

Picture below.
Thanks
Attached Thumbnails
Cylinder.jpg  
__________________
Advertisement

NWpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2021, 08:01 PM   #2
Guru
 
Lou_tribal's Avatar
 
City: Quebec
Vessel Name: Bleuvet
Vessel Model: Custom Built
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 4,279
I have the exact same cylinder and got it rebuilt by an hydraulic shop nearby. They were more busy with their industrial customers but the guy made it between 2 jobs and I go it few days later. The guy show me how to do it myself, quite easy. Just have to unscrew cap at the extremity. Someone made a post about it on that forum.

I am wondering what kind of hydraulic fitting you have mounted on it (the brass ones)? I am looking at replacing mine.

If you want to replace it you may look on the side of Seastar/Teleflex, they have similar ones.

L
__________________

Lou_tribal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2021, 08:14 PM   #3
Guru
 
City: Clearwater, Florida USA
Vessel Name: Seas the Bay
Vessel Model: 1981 42' Hardin Europa
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,483
I don't really know. Hydraulics aren't my thing. But, I'd think if you'd get whatever Seastar/Teleflex has that is an approximation of the same thing, you'd be fine. If you have two, and the replacement is more than a little different, you probably want to replace both to keep their movement about the same.
gkesden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2021, 08:23 PM   #4
Guru
 
City: Clearwater, Florida USA
Vessel Name: Seas the Bay
Vessel Model: 1981 42' Hardin Europa
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,483
Actually, I wonder how close a Seastar or Jastram or other cylinder would be.

Can you:

(a) Tell me how many full turns of the wheel it takes to go stop-to-stop on your steering (bled of air, e.g. assuming a hard stop and no skipping)

(b) Post a close up of the label on that cylinder?

I'm trying to figure out the volume, etc.
gkesden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 12:44 AM   #5
Veteran Member
 
NWpilot's Avatar
 
City: Vancouver, WA
Vessel Name: Yukon Jack
Vessel Model: 30' Tollycraft sedan
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 26
Answers to questions:

1. The previous mechanic installed tees on the cylinder ports and ran a line between the 2 sides of the cylinder for some reason. That simply pushes oil from one side to the other without moving the cylinder. I don't know what he was thinking. I removed the line. Fittings can be purchased at any hydraulic supply shop.

2. The head of the cylinder is screwed in (you can see the threads) and there is no way to grip it without destroying the threads. That's why I went no further.

3. Based on Wagner's legacy info the cylinder volume is 6.44 cu.in. and the helm pump is 1.95 cu.in resulting in a lock to lock of 3.3 turns.

4. The label has no model or serial number on it.

Added a couple of pictures below.
Attached Thumbnails
Cyl Head.jpg   Label.jpg  
NWpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 12:47 AM   #6
Veteran Member
 
NWpilot's Avatar
 
City: Vancouver, WA
Vessel Name: Yukon Jack
Vessel Model: 30' Tollycraft sedan
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 26
To clarify, the extra hose on each port is for the autopilot and the clear hose is the one I removed.
NWpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 07:47 AM   #7
Guru
 
Portage_Bay's Avatar
 
City: Coupeville Wa.
Vessel Name: Pelorus
Vessel Model: Californian 42 LRC
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 1,330
I understand the frustration. It looks like the chrome on the rod is in good shape so it should be simply replacing internal seals. It's a relatively simple job for a hydraulics shop with the right tools and access to the parts.

I had my ram, two helm pumps and the auto pilot pump rebuilt by Skagit Hydraulics in less than a week for $500 total. Maybe give them a call and consider shipping your ram to them?
https://www.skagithydraulics.com/

If you want to replace the ram reach out to SeaStar with the info you have on the ram, measurements from mount to rudder(s) etc. They should be able to provide you with a replacement.
__________________
Some things are worth doing simply because they are worth doing.
Portage_Bay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 08:16 PM   #8
Guru
 
Lepke's Avatar
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,337
To grip the threads use a barrier between the threads and a tool like channel lock pliers. I use rubber gasket material.
The cylinder is easy to rebuild. Just be clean and lube the inside cylinder and seals with hydraulic oil. I did mine and lots of others.
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 09:39 PM   #9
Veteran Member
 
City: Grand Manan,N.B.
Vessel Name: Puffin II
Vessel Model: Mascot 28 PH Motorsailer
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 65
Compare the Wagner/Jastram N series vs your 700. / Len
https://wagnerengineering.ca/


https://wagnerengineering.ca/categor...00_series_1-25
__________________
:) My personal experience &/or my personal opinion-feel free to ignore.
deblen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 11:07 PM   #10
Veteran Member
 
NWpilot's Avatar
 
City: Vancouver, WA
Vessel Name: Yukon Jack
Vessel Model: 30' Tollycraft sedan
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 26
Len
I know, it looks basically the same. I don't see any reason I couldn't flip it over so the ports are on top.

I also don't understand why Wagner didn't recommend a replacement from their product line. I'm thinking I got a lazy salesman.
NWpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2021, 11:51 PM   #11
Guru
 
City: Clearwater, Florida USA
Vessel Name: Seas the Bay
Vessel Model: 1981 42' Hardin Europa
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,483
What about an Ultraflex UCI-116I?

-- https://uflexusa.ultraflexgroup.com/...versione_m.pdf
-- https://uflexusa.ultraflexgroup.com/...cylinders.html
-- https://www.ebay.com/itm/18373690419...evt=1&mkcid=28
-- https://www.wmjmarine.com/ufx-uc116i.html
gkesden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2021, 12:10 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
City: Anacortes
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 353
There are likely holes in the face of the end cap for a pin wrench if you want to remove it.
Easiest and likely least expensive replacement is the Seastar BA125-7ATM cylinder, it's around $500.
The mounting holes on any replacement cylinder are likely to be different from your Wagner so plan for that. You'll also want to make sure that spherical end has the correct hole size for the bolt that attaches it to your tiller arm
sean9c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2021, 02:37 AM   #13
Veteran Member
 
City: Grand Manan,N.B.
Vessel Name: Puffin II
Vessel Model: Mascot 28 PH Motorsailer
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWpilot View Post
Len
I know, it looks basically the same. I don't see any reason I couldn't flip it over so the ports are on top.

I also don't understand why Wagner didn't recommend a replacement from their product line. I'm thinking I got a lazy salesman.

You are correct in assuming "any balanced(piston rod goes right thru & out the other end) cylinder" will work.
If you replace with a 1 1/4 dia.x 7" stroke and same dia. piston rod (same displacement) your turns will remain the same. If you go to larger disp. cyl.,your turns go up & effort reqd will go down andvs/vs for smaller disp.
Position of ports/fittings do not matter.

There is a used 700 cyl on ebay but any brand will do.

Bit pricey for used but...https://www.ebay.com/itm/25431531194...wAAOSwW7ldQI6V

Quick way of bleeding the system-use the autopilot to run the ram HO-HO-HO several times while adding helm oil as reqd. Saves bleeding.
Cheers/Len
__________________
:) My personal experience &/or my personal opinion-feel free to ignore.
deblen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2021, 09:58 AM   #14
Guru
 
Lepke's Avatar
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,337
If you don't bleed the ram, you get an air pocket that compresses and may not move the rudder the full range. I have Wagner steering and not bleeding leaves 5-10° of hard over rudder angle not used.
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-16-2021, 02:35 PM   #15
Veteran Member
 
NWpilot's Avatar
 
City: Vancouver, WA
Vessel Name: Yukon Jack
Vessel Model: 30' Tollycraft sedan
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 26
Well, I looked at everyone's comments and suggestions and ended up ordering an Ultraflex UCI 116-I cylinder from WMJ Marine.
I also called and told the shop to forget about working on my old cylinder, since they hadn't started on it yet.
Thanks to everyone for confirming that there are no hidden perils in replacing a cylinder with one of the same capacity.

Chas
__________________

NWpilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×