Valise or Canister (Life Raft)

[markbarendt]

So kicking around the thought of a life raft and where to store it.

I'm not above trying to save a few hundred bucks where it makes sense, and a choosing a valise saves $200 and the raft is the same.

Any thoughts?

 

[rsn48]

Do you have a dinghy? Are you in open water a lot or boating mostly close to land?

 

[Portage_Bay]

I don't know about a valise, never owned one. But a canister properly mounted in a cradle with a hydrostatic release will auto deploy when your boat sinks.

 

[markbarendt]

Do you have a dinghy? Are you in open water a lot or boating mostly close to land?

Yes a nice inflatable dinghy.

Mostly close to land but can see being 25-50 miles offshore. The life raft isn’t about most of the time though. When someone goes skydiving most of their day is still spent on the ground...

 

[markbarendt]

I don't know about a valise, never owned one. But a canister properly mounted in a cradle with a hydrostatic release will auto deploy when your boat sinks.

I take offense at the use of the word ‘when’.

The auto release idea is worth considering.

I wonder if I could find stats on how often that feature gets used.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I don't think the stats on use of the hydrostatic release are relevant to the decision to purchase a valise or canister raft.

What matters is are you concerned about having to abandon ship? Are you concerned about that happening far enough from safety that your dink isn't up to the task? If yes then you want a raft.

Next ask yourself if you can reliably, in an emergency be confident in digging the valise raft out of storage, doing whatever it takes to prep, launch and inflate it? Or do you want to toss the canister raft overload and pull the painter to inflate it?

If you've decided on a canister raft then having a hydrostatic release is a no brainer.

I take offense at the use of the word ‘when’.

The auto release idea is worth considering.

I wonder if I could find stats on how often that feature gets used.

 

[DDW]

Two things to consider when buying a life raft: insist that the one you are buying was recently packed. The pack is good for 3 or at most 5 years, if they hand you one off the shelf that is already a year into that (like they did me) you should turn it down. Second, consider the repacks, every 3 years, that cost about 1/2 what a new raft costs. Rental is expensive, but if the need is rare, cheaper, because of the maintenance costs.

A canister will sit in the sun and weather all the time. Supposed to protect it but there are plenty of stories. A valise can sit in your air conditioned home most of the time. Even a small raft is fairly heavy and bulky to handle though.

 

[Jeff F]

How big a raft are you considering? I have a 4 person coastal raft in a valise and it's very compact and light. I take it between boats and store it inside the boat. Larger offshore rafts are harder to handle and bulkier to store , and are more often kept on deck in cannisters.

 

[markbarendt]

I don't think the stats on use of the hydrostatic release are relevant to the decision to purchase a valise or canister raft.

What matters is are you concerned about having to abandon ship? Are you concerned about that happening far enough from safety that your dink isn't up to the task? If yes then you want a raft.

Next ask yourself if you can reliably, in an emergency be confident in digging the valise raft out of storage, doing whatever it takes to prep, launch and inflate it? Or do you want to toss the canister raft overload and pull the painter to inflate it?

If you've decided on a canister raft then having a hydrostatic release is a no brainer.

Yes, there is a concern that the dinghy wouldn't be able to get the job done.

Any raft we chose would be stored outside, was considering a back corner on the flybridge to start, maybe held in place with a cargo strap.

It's my assumption that the rafts are the same, the only difference is hard vs soft wrapper so in either case it's just pulling the painter.

 

[markbarendt]

Two things to consider when buying a life raft: insist that the one you are buying was recently packed. The pack is good for 3 or at most 5 years, if they hand you one off the shelf that is already a year into that (like they did me) you should turn it down. Second, consider the repacks, every 3 years, that cost about 1/2 what a new raft costs. Rental is expensive, but if the need is rare, cheaper, because of the maintenance costs.

A canister will sit in the sun and weather all the time. Supposed to protect it but there are plenty of stories. A valise can sit in your air conditioned home most of the time. Even a small raft is fairly heavy and bulky to handle though.

There are two rafts on craigslist close to me and both are old, one the canister is in poor shape, either would need to be repacked. They are both old enough that I'm thinking they may be past their useful lives.

The rental idea would be very workable for the next couple years, after that though we'll need one pretty much full time. We could go either way.

 

[markbarendt]

How big a raft are you considering? I have a 4 person coastal raft in a valise and it's very compact and light. I take it between boats and store it inside the boat. Larger offshore rafts are harder to handle and bulkier to store , and are more often kept on deck in cannisters.

There is a small bit of debate on the size, probably 6 person, but 4 person may be very doable.

The grand majority of time it will be the Admiral and myself.

The wildcard is when family and friends come along, that is something I need to learn about.

Starting small and renting or buying up if/when needed is sounding better given that thought.

 

[psneeld]

In cold water/climates, immersion suits can be just as important as a liferaft....you can still die of exposure in a liferaft.


If you don't cross oceans, boat near countries with helicopter rescue resources, stay within reach of them, have an EPIRB and PLB equipped immersion suits....they can be a suitable alternative to a lferaft.

 

[Hippocampus]

Here’s what I’ve learned over the course of decades pissing away money on something I’ve yet to use.
There are devices aimed at the coastal market. They are in general 1/3 to 1/2 the cost. Unlike ocean/offshore rafts which are industrially floored they are not. Coastal rafts may be allowed to have one tube. Offshore two or more. Coastal need not be proven to not capsize in large waves. Offshore must. So commonly have automatic drogues/sea anchors and water contained chambers below them. Coastal have different requirements for what is packed inside. We supplemented our raft with a ditch bag as most offshore sailors do.
Water intrusion, heat and UV shortened the workable life of a raft. Vertical mounted canister rafts are more likely to have issues. Hydrostatic releases are complicated. All to often rafts are mounted incorrectly which can impede or prevent the release from working. You need to read instructions carefully and even speak with the manufacturer to install correctly. Rafts are commonly stolen in some areas for the world so some people prefer valise over canister and store below. If you choose a valise it must be light enough that the smallest person onboard can lift and deplo the raft. My wife is 4’10” and 100lbs. We went with a Winslow when we wanted a valise for that reason.
Repack costs vary widely depending on manufacturer. In my experience have never costed 1/2 of the price or even close to that. But you need to think about repack. We were concerned that a manufacturer’s certified vendor for repack would be in existence in our various cruising grounds. You should watch the repack and get into you raft at each repack. You get labels and paper to demonstrate that your raft is currently certified. That’s important for races but may also impact insurance. It’s required if you ever take passengers for hire. Rafts usually only have a service life of 10 years and then need to be replaced as no one will repack them and re certify them.
Most boats burn quickly or go down quickly. Unless you’re dragging a dinghy it very likely you will be swimming before it’s deployed. You are safer in a boat than in a raft. Raft deployment must be quick and easy or totally automatic. You should be spending your time saving the boat not messing with a raft.
Take a safety at sea course. You’ll learn a lot and be surprised how hard it is to get into a life raft.

 

[Hippocampus]

Few other thoughts.
Gumby suits do protect from hypothermia. They include your head, hands and feet. They are a total bear to put one and once on you really can’t work the boat at all. Immersion suits leave your feet and hands out so aren’t nearly as effective even with the straps pulled tight. Also usually no thick neoprene over your head so aren’t nearly as effective. You can work the boat wearing one but they’re sure hot and restrictive. I worn a Imhoff oil workers suit when in gale/storm conditions/ or freezing rain. Even with frequent use getting it on and tightening the straps took minutes and it was quicker than the Mustang we now use.Do like the mustang but will only wear it when it’s real cold outside.
So my opinion is if you’re on a very big boat or a ship Gumby suits make great sense. If you’re on a recreational craft not so much. Immersion suits make great sense if you’re exposed to cold wet weather but are uncomfortable and not a substitute for a good raft. Trawler folks are usually inside so overheating is a concern. They make sense if you’re going to layer up and put on foulies anyway. Ours hang near the ditchbag and will be thrown into the raft if time allows.
Almost all rescues occur in the first 24 hours. Weather isn’t the only reason boats go down. Fire, blown throughhulls, burst pipes/hoses , shaft seals etc. are also considerations. Beyond the raft you need to think about rescue. We carry a ships epirb, a raft epirb a vhf in the ditchbag, all day smoke and flares in the raft, medkit in the raft and bigger one in the ditchbag, water, food, exposure blankets etc.etc. You’re looking at a boat buck or two to do a really good ditch bag/epirb set up.
Much has been written about this subject. It’s worth reading. It’s surprising how many rafts don’t deploy. How often people get into rafts and their boat keeps floating. How well people who are prepared do and how poorly others do.

 

[Hippocampus]

Will note personal locator beacons are becoming the de rigor for attachment on harnesses on ocean going sail as they allow MOB by the boat. But many SAR organizations can’t monitor them. If you’re coastal would check with your local SAR if they have that capability. Otherwise get a personal epirb rather than a PLB.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Hippocampus's post covers most all considerations in purchasing, maintaining and using a raft. I will disagree with his statement that hydrostatic releases are complicated. I've found them quite simple to rig and use. But you MUST rig them correctly or they won't work.

Psneeld's post about immersion suits vs life raft makes a good point. However do think about carrying others beyond your immediate family. Those who are regular crew can learn how to use the suit(s), PLB(s), EPIRB and how to stay together on the water. Occasional guest would be a different story. And 4 or 5 immersion suits will take up a lot of storage space.

OP is in Portland Oregon so the comment up thread about sun deteriorating the canister does not apply. In the PNW the canisters last the full service life of the raft.

Sizing the raft is not easy on a recreational boat. Ideally the raft should be the smallest that will work. The reason is that in sloppy weather you and the crew will be sitting in salt water, sliding around getting sores and abrasions. Better to be packed in like sardines. But when your crew varies from 2 to 4 to 6?

You are considering a life raft. This implies you are taking you and your crew's safety very seriously. I think it is a good idea to take a basic safety training course, I'm not sure what it's called now the name of the course has changed. The course is aimed at professional mariners but teaches a number of things valuable to any mariner. Proper rigging and use of a life raft. Proper use of an immersion suit. 1st aid. Basic fire fighting and other areas of study. The better schools will give hands on experience with all of the above. It is an eye opener to try boarding a life raft from the water, even in a swimming pool. Putting on an immersion suit in the water. Fighting fires. Not only will you learn the basics, you will learn how important it is to do everything you can up front to avoid the emergency in the first place. The biggest draw backs to taking this course is much of the training is geared towards a larger crew, it is usually a week long, and it is expensive.

Perhaps you can find a course geared more towards the recreational boater. I'd look for a course suited to the area and kind of boating I would be doing that offers hands on training.

I'm sure you can find good training in Portland. If not Seattle has several very good training facilities.

 

[Iggy]

Hippocampus, good reading!

 

[psneeld]

When I used the term "immersion suit" I guess I should have been more specific.


While true gumbys are probably the best for survival, once fully donned, they make it very difficult to do anything but abandon ship. However, pulled up to your waist, they are still cumbersome, but you can still perform many tasks as you could without one.


There are many different kinds of "survival suits" (a better term for the great variation in design)...some (at least used)have separate gloves and hoods to help protect. If not, buy wetsuit gloves and a hood.


As far as many boats sink fast...not really in my experience...but enough do that any survival gear unless already on or laying out ready to don may not come with you when in the water. For the 15 years I was assistance towing, my company made us do water drill and don gumbys both on land against a 2 minute clock and while in the water. yes it is difficult, but can be done when your life depends on it.


Survival starts before you leave the dock and lasts until you are home safe and no longer threatened by hypothermia. It's an involved thought process to be mentally prepared from avoiding survival situations, to damage control, to properly abandoning ship (not too early, not too late), properly using survival equipment, rescue signalling, and proper rescue.


PS...a PLB IS a personal EPIRB

 

[MYTraveler]

You should be spending your time saving the boat not messing with a raft.

Boats go down (and burn) fast. If there is ever any doubt about my ability to save the boat, I am going to focus on saving the people. Get everyone safely into a raft, get the ditch bag, set off the EPIRB, make some mayday calls, get the dinghy into the water, if possible. Meanwhile, the boat sinks or burns but that will be the least of my concerns.

 

[Hippocampus]

SAS (safety at sea) is required for most ocean races and is aimed at the recreational boater. In order to race you need to show you’ve done it recently. It’s much shorter and less expensive than the courses aimed at the professional mariner. You will have to put up railmeat and other ragbaggers but most are good people LOL.

 

[Hippocampus]

In current common usage PLB is AIS technology. Personal epirb is satellite technology. Both cats but different species.

Excellent article in Attainable Adventures explaining the differences and strengths/weaknesses of each totally different type of device. As expected those who single or have boats where people stand single handed watches want a personal epirb first. Those with boats who always have two up like personal AIS(PLBs). Many have taken to having both on each crew as one is generally better for MOB (AIS) and the other for SAR(epirb).

Agree with you MYT. Save our Souls. It’s a judgment call where to direct your energies. We do drills and assignments before leaving even if our crew has been used before for passage. That allows you to focus on both if you can. One crew is assigned to get ready to abandon ship. Another to assess situation (me). Another to get everyone ready. Another to communications until we abandon ship. Assignments are modified in accordance to the situation.
We post diagrams of where all through hulls are positioned. Where rescue materials are and instruct on use. Plugs are attached to all through hulls. Fire extinguishers are current and locale known to everyone as well as being demarcated.
The list is extensive so not fully written here. But you get the idea. Crew knows what to do, where things are and we practice doing it before leaving. Same with MOB.

 

[markbarendt]

Good stuff guys. We do intend to take the safety courses over time.

I don't see the immersion suits as a real option, takes too long to don in an emergency and if the conditions are that intimidating, we're not going to be steaming, I'm not fishing for a living.

Have definitely considered using our inflatable to fill the roll of the life raft. Given our good weather bias. Having a motor is a huge advantage over a raft especially if the distance to shore is small. Just needs to be ready all the time.

Lots to think about.

 

[Porgy]

Will note personal locator beacons are becoming the de rigor for attachment on harnesses on ocean going sail as they allow MOB by the boat. But many SAR organizations can’t monitor them. If you’re coastal would check with your local SAR if they have that capability. Otherwise get a personal epirb rather than a PLB.

What are you talking about? PLB is the same as an EPIRB except for size and battery life.

Do you mean personal AIS or Crew Watch or OLAS? Completely different.

 

[psneeld]

What are you talking about? PLB is the same as an EPIRB except for size and battery life.

Do you mean personal AIS or Crew Watch or OLAS? Completely different.

I don't know where he got that from...maybe from the tiny circle of offshore sailors... but not from day to day reality of the average boater....


YES!!!! PLB means personal locator beacon...but I have NEVER met anyone before that didn't think a PLB was a mini EPIRB.


Overwhelming evidence on Google about using PLB.

 

[psneeld]

Good stuff guys. We do intend to take the safety courses over time.

I don't see the immersion suits as a real option, takes too long to don in an emergency and if the conditions are that intimidating, we're not going to be steaming, I'm not fishing for a living.

Have definitely considered using our inflatable to fill the roll of the life raft. Given our good weather bias. Having a motor is a huge advantage over a raft especially if the distance to shore is small. Just needs to be ready all the time.

Lots to think about.

What a lot of Safety at Sea graduates say is "hard to don"... true.


But being the guy who has plucked may a boater out of the drink and debriefed survivors....the vast majority already had gumby suits on long before the idea to abandon ship was implemented.


I too am often torn by one or the other argument...that's because there is a lot going for either product and a lot going against both. A frame of reference (like exactly your boat and how you use it and where you use it) is what actually tips the balance.

 

[psneeld]

Sorry to have driftd away from the OP question...valise or canister?


If the raft and contents are the same....it's more a question of where stored and how deployed.


While rollovers do occur, sometimes they put the raft underwater for hours till the boat sinks and the hydro-static release is deep enough to release the raft. Sometimes the opposite, people bury the valise in storage and don't have accessibility to get it out.


Hard to say which is best for you...you have to picture in your minds eye where and when you boat to envision the scenario you are most likely to encounter.


One of the problems with jumping into big boats and far off voyages for many...they might be able to buy all the equipment...but choosing what's right for them and how to use it escapes their experience level. Not directed at the OP...just a general throwout.

 

[Hippocampus]

My bad can see why psn called PLB satellite based. He’s right that’s how personal epirbs are still marketed. At present there’s 3 choices for MOB (can’t get used to POB) smart phone based, satellite based personal and ships devices and AIS based. This thread is about life rafts so would want a ships based epirb ( longer transmission time and stronger signal) along with the personal ones on the crew.
Apologies to PSN I was wrong in usage.

BTW PSN makes an excellent point. Unless you practice using your safety equipment it’s worthless. You can’t buy safety no matter how much money you spend.

 

[Porgy]

We went with a valise. While the hydro has the distinct advantage of deploying itself after the boat is under the water by 6’ or so and recognizing it can also be manually deployed, we thought the valise gave us some flexibility.

Removed from its Pelican case on deck it has a carry handle to easily take it to the launch point of our choosing be it bow stern or mid.

In the admittedly unlikely event someone else’s boat is sinking, it may be possible to toss it over with a messenger line for them to use. I’m thinking of a scenario where I might not be able to get close enough to physically get the crew but close enough to toss a line.

In its Pelican case, although not exactly light, it can be easily transported and carried aboard other boats when needed.

Its all compromises of one sort or another but that was our thinking.

 

[psneeld]

We went with a valise. While the hydro has the distinct advantage of deploying itself after the boat is under the water by 6’ or so and recognizing it can also be manually deployed, we thought the valise gave us some flexibility.

Removed from its Pelican case on deck it has a carry handle to easily take it to the launch point of our choosing be it bow stern or mid.

In the admittedly unlikely event someone else’s boat is sinking, it may be possible to toss it over with a messenger line for them to use. I’m thinking of a scenario where I might not be able to get close enough to physically get the crew but close enough to toss a line.

In its Pelican case, although not exactly light, it can be easily transported and carried aboard other boats when needed.

Its all compromises of one sort or another but that was our thinking.

Exactly...every situation at sea rarely is defined by another but is by centuries of what can or might happen.


Like pre-voyage planning....


Quote Investigator: In 1950 Dwight Eisenhower wrote a letter to a U.S. diplomat in which he ascribed a military-oriented version of the saying to an anonymous soldier. Emphasis added to excerpts by QI: 1

. . . I always remember the observation of a very successful soldier who said, “Peace-time plans are of no particular value, but peace-time planning is indispensable.”

https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/18/planning/

also.....lots of practical experience doesn't hurt either.
​

 

[Porgy]

The 406 output for both PLB and EPIRB is the same 5 watts. The less critical 121.5 homing is 25 and 50 mW respectively.

We decided to carry multiple PLBs. Easy to clip on and pocket, each have one in case we’re separated and the possibility that a CAT 1 EPIRB floats away from us.