Valise or Canister (Life Raft)

[Hippocampus]

My bad . Haven’t been good in terminology.
Totally agree different animals. AIS good when you’ve rehearsed MOB protocols with your crew but worthless if you singlehand in most instances.
GPS better for SAR but especially for the first 24hours and for single handing.
It’s rare we've had the luxury of 2 up during the night. So have had the rule if you’re going to leave the helm station to do something outside you wake someone up (last watch person up to 3h into your watch-next if in last hour of your watch) to watch you. Given we’ve bought stuff over time PFDs are set up with both AIS/GPS.
Think if you go outside 200 nm from nearest SAR station personal GPS doesn’t replace a dedicated ships GPS. The added battery power and length of broadcasting time is meaningful.
Think most SAR events are coastal. Think you and your crew are more likely to be less focused. Know most people get real business minded and focused on passage. Approach their watch as their job. Will admit when it’s just me and the bride on a nice day would have the PDFs out but not worn. Even for a 30 to 50 mile transit as we sun and chat. So think a MOB device such as. mOM-8 is key.

 

[psneeld]

If you’re an electronics engineer with transceivers (I’m not) we’re all ears. This subject has come up before and admittedly it’s been a few years since I’ve last read about it. So maybe technology has improved.

But, what had been discussed was that you would need two separate transmitters, antennae and battery packs for each function to operate as intended. Maybe it’s physically possible to create such a device but it likely wouldn’t be any smaller than two separate devices, possibly more expensive and the market for those whose emergency management scenarios desiring a combined device is possibly small. I think I’d rather have separates anyway. If one fails and needs to be sent for service I still have the other.

Pretty sure PLBs also transmit on 121.5 mhz so SAR resources can home in on it when close by.


Don't see any reason a man overboard system for boats can't be set up to activate and home in on it too.


The biggest obstacle is the manual activation/auto activation where I think PLBs have to be manual as being carried versus mounted the worry about auto activation when not necessary. Micro-electronics nowadays though seems to overcome problems like this pretty easily.


Probably just nt a big enough demand for the tech yet.

 

[Porgy]

So have had the rule if you’re going to leave the helm station to do something outside you wake someone up

You bring up a good point. I’ve been in discussions with several trawler owners who had done transoceanic passages and one circumnavigation as well as long ocean passages. The consensus was that there is almost zero excuse for falling overboard on a trawler. Other than for some exigency you don’t have to be outside where one might go over. Not to say that a personal AIS isn’t still a good idea. Just that one’s risk management on a trawler passage should nearly obviate the need for it. It’s not a sailboat.

Our rules. No one goes outside unless someone else can see them. On watch alone at night, doors locked, no one goes outside. Exception, someone else present to stargaze.

 

[markbarendt]

If you’re an electronics engineer with transceivers (I’m not) we’re all ears. This subject has come up before and admittedly it’s been a few years since I’ve last read about it. So maybe technology has improved.

But, what had been discussed was that you would need two separate transmitters, antennae and battery packs for each function to operate as intended. Maybe it’s physically possible to create such a device but it likely wouldn’t be any smaller than two separate devices, possibly more expensive and the market for those whose emergency management scenarios desiring a combined device is possibly small. I think I’d rather have separates anyway. If one fails and needs to be sent for service I still have the other.

I'm not talking sci-fi here

https://www.standardhorizon.com/ind...3DD4EBE62DC0E44BFED&DivisionID=3&isArchived=0

That handheld radio is darn close already, only lacking the GPS(EPIRB) uplink (it does receive GPS) and automatic activation of the beacon (though it does activate a light when submerged so the 'switch' is even there for that).

It is also less expensive than a PLB at only $199

It would allow the person in the water to communicate directly with rescuers.

It gives the person in the water a visual beacon.

 

[psneeld]

Remember....it is often the certification that costs money....too much at times. That's why a lot of products don't have UL or other certification.


MOB systems aren't in the SAR/EPIRB network so who does what testing on them? PLBs and EPIRBs that are certified have to pass rigorous standards at international levels.

 

[Porgy]

I'm not talking sci-fi here

https://www.standardhorizon.com/ind...3DD4EBE62DC0E44BFED&DivisionID=3&isArchived=0

That handheld radio is darn close already, only lacking the GPS(EPIRB) uplink (it does receive GPS) and automatic activation of the beacon (though it does activate a light when submerged so the 'switch' is even there for that).

It is also less expensive than a PLB at only $199

It would allow the person in the water to communicate directly with rescuers.

It gives the person in the water a visual beacon.

A good bit of the previous discussion was about personal AIS and PLB. DSC handheld VHF has been around for a while and pretty common. DSC transmits on channel 70 of the VHF band so there’s no real magic to it. It can’t do what a PLB can which transmits at 406 MHz and homing beacon at 121.5 MHz. That’s why I mentioned my recollection that a combined AIS and PLB would need two distinct transmitters, as would a combined VHF and PLB.

 

[Porgy]

Moving a little bit closer in that direction.

https://www.icomjapan.com/lineup/products/IC-M94D/

But only receiving AIS, not transmitting.

 

[markbarendt]

A good bit of the previous discussion was about personal AIS and PLB. DSC handheld VHF has been around for a while and pretty common. DSC transmits on channel 70 of the VHF band so there’s no real magic to it. It can’t do what a PLB can which transmits at 406 MHz and homing beacon at 121.5 MHz. That’s why I mentioned my recollection that a combined AIS and PLB would need two distinct transmitters, as would a combined VHF and PLB.

Yes it would take a little extra hardware, that's ok by me. If standard Horizon had that, I'd give them an extra $50-100.

The other thing for me is that I only really care that the system works in a real and practical sense.

For example, the homing in idea is great but addressable in more than one manner and while the USCG can home in on one, I don't know that I or anyone on the boats around me has the tools or expertise needed to home in on a vhf beacon.

Essentially the boat I just fell off of losses it's ability to track me if I use a satellite based locator.

Conversely if I fall overboard and activate that HX890 radio, it becomes GPS locatable on all the AIS systems in range and an all ships call alert is sent.

 

[markbarendt]

Moving a little bit closer in that direction.

https://www.icomjapan.com/lineup/products/IC-M94D/

But only receiving AIS, not transmitting.

So I think I've mis spoken a bit.

The radio you suggested and the Standard Horizon are very comparable. The do send the gps info via DSC but I don't know that they become visible on AIS.

I'm learning.

 

[psneeld]

Homing in on something is no different than steering to the dot the current MOB gear gives you.


Worst case, you turn right or left following a pointer or something till you run over it or it swaps and points/goes behind you.


You might be surprised at how many of us in the old days navigated by tuning a receiver to AM radio stations and homing on them with crude instruments to find inlets.


But sure AIS tech in a handheld with GPS might be the way to go...a little larger and clunkier now but that can be fixed maybe.


Just remember, in most survival situations, you often only have the gear you have on your person at the time of emergency.

 

[markbarendt]

Homing in on something is no different than steering to the dot the current MOB gear gives you.


Worst case, you turn right or left following a pointer or something till you run over it or it swaps and points/goes behind you.


You might be surprised at how many of us in the old days navigated by tuning a receiver to AM radio stations and homing on them with crude instruments to find inlets.


But sure AIS tech in a handheld with GPS might be the way to go...a little larger and clunkier now but that can be fixed maybe.


Just remember, in most survival situations, you often only have the gear you have on your person at the time of emergency.

You are right that homing isn't tough. Many years ago I got my pilots license, practiced homing in on airports there.

I just don't have a radio direction finder to do that on my boat, doubt most of my neighbors do either.

 

[Hippocampus]

Remember radio directional finders lol. Was in my teens so real old school.
My impression is rescue stuff should all be passive or as passive as possible. Think even flipping the protective cover open and pushing the button is a lot to handle when MOB. Let alone pulling out the tape antenna on some devices. Maybe sitting in a raft a waterproof VHF is a viable solution (there’s is one we keep charged in the ditch bag along with a small solar panel for charging radios and phones). But as a primary aid when you’re floating in the water trying to keep from aspirating think a handheld VHF isn’t an ideal choice.

 

[markbarendt]

Remember radio directional finders lol. Was in my teens so real old school.
My impression is rescue stuff should all be passive or as passive as possible. Think even flipping the protective cover open and pushing the button is a lot to handle when MOB. Let alone pulling out the tape antenna on some devices. Maybe sitting in a raft a waterproof VHF is a viable solution (there’s is one we keep charged in the ditch bag along with a small solar panel for charging radios and phones). But as a primary aid when you’re floating in the water trying to keep from aspirating think a handheld VHF isn’t an ideal choice.

I definitely like simple. But the more I read the small PLBs all have to be activated by hand. I don’t necessarily wanna carry an EPIRB on my life vest.

 

[Caballero II]

Once again, a PLB is the same as an EPIRB except for size and battery life. I’ve not read anywhere including NOAA who registers them, call it “an SAR device (personal epirb)” If you’re referring to a personal AIS device, it should be called that.

There’s no question that a personal AIS could assist in a MOB quicker than a PLB but they are intended for two different emergency situations. It’s not either/or. It’s what tools do you use to address myriad different scenarios, of course weighed against the likelihood of them occurring.

Porgy, please read my post again, maybe more slowly. Of course I am contrasting an AIS-driven personal device with an Epirb-driven PLB. They are two different things that operate in very different ways. Even if the personal epirb is not often called a "SAR" device, that is exactly the system being invoked when it is activated. Not confusing.

 

[Porgy]

Or rather I think, both. I am coming to the conclusion that a PLB gets you connected to the boat you were on nearly instantly, making saving your life much more likely...

How does a PLB get you connected to the boat nearly instantly? A PLB sends a signal to SARSAT via a satellite from which assets are dispatched. As far as I know, recreational boats do not have 406 MHZ satellite receivers to near instantly receive a signal. Maybe there are 121.5 MHz homing receivers but I’ve never seen one for sale to the average boater.

 

[caltexflanc]

I always thought of PLBs to be an adjunct to an EPIRB for open ocean cruising, not a replacement.

We bought a True Kit dinghy to solve that problem, the design allows the bow to be pulled down to water level for entry. https://truekit.nz/

I’m thinking about adding a special ditch bag with epirb and such instead of buying a raft.

I'm thinking that's a bad plan. That exposed dinghy is not designed for open ocean drifting.

People tend to imagine that their will boat will be slowly sinking for whatever reason, much like depictions of the Titanic. That's not often the case; fire for instance. Whatever your plan is, make it executable as quickly as possible, and practice it. Including how to make the PLB deploy when you are in the water.

A good idea, which I never did myself but could have/ should have, but heard from someone who I respect, is to deploy your life raft when it comes due for a repack and practice the full drill. He had done just that the day I noticed him running a cart up the dock with the thing stuffed into it.

Hippocampus: note the spacing between the paragraphs. You contribute some great content here but it can be really hard to read sometimes.

 

[Caballero II]

What are you talking about? PLB is the same as an EPIRB except for size and battery life.

Do you mean personal AIS or Crew Watch or OLAS? Completely different.

Hey Porgy, back off. You are clearly not reading the full thread of this or the earlier post concerning PLB's. In this conversation, we all seem to know the difference between an AIS-based system, and an EPIRB-based system. Please take a minute and read the full threads before commenting!! Christ!!

 

[Porgy]

My apologies. I’ve been going by the definitions that NOAA, USCG and COSPAS-SARSAT have been using since forever and not the made up redefinitions by forum posters whenever the whim suits them.

Because the devices function differently and are for different emergency situations I guess I’m one of the few who thinks that terminology is relevant, especially for those unfamiliar with the devices and seeking accurate information.

 

[psneeld]

Hey Porgy, back off. You are clearly not reading the full thread of this or the earlier post concerning PLB's. In this conversation, we all seem to know the difference between an AIS-based system, and an EPIRB-based system. Please take a minute and read the full threads before commenting!! Christ!!

Talk about back off.

Keeping terminology as correct as can be helps smoothly reading and understanding the posts within the thread.

When people were referring PLB as being tracked by the boat I had to slow down an make sure I was connecting the right attributes to the right device.

I worked within the SAR system for a long time and MOB devices are comparatively new/popular.

I agree the 2 technologies should be incorporated together, and I suspect they will be or one will stay/become dominant and absorb the other....or new tech will make both obsolete.

 

[Porgy]

Talk about back off.

Keeping terminology as correct as can be helps smoothly reading and understanding the posts within the thread.

When people were referring PLB as being tracked by the boat I had to slow down an make sure I was connecting the right attributes to the right device.

I worked within the SAR system for a long time and MOB devices are comparatively new/popular.

I agree the 2 technologies should be incorporated together, and I suspect they will be or one will stay/become dominant and absorb the other....or new tech will make both obsolete.

Thanks. Also, it appears at least McMurdo has an EPIRB with AIS built in. It seems to be new but I don’t know how recent. So personal sized such devices may indeed someday be available. I suppose until then all of the crew could wear one on their life jackets.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I wonder if the two devices, PLB and MOB/AIS will or should ever be combined. I'm using the terms PLB to mean a mini EPIRB and MOB/AIS a device to alert the watch and nearby boats with AIS that someone is overboard and make the search easier and more effective.

One should be manually activated, the other can and should be automatically activated.

A PLB being a mini EPIRB communicating with a global satellite system we don't want false alarms going off. If not quickly cancelled it could trigger a wide area or possibly global response. For those reasons the PLB is manually activated. An on switch and due to needing to broadcast to satellites an external antenna that needs to be extended.

A MOB/AIS is local, a false alarm is not nearly as much of a problem. A MOB/AIS can be activated automatically. Often by immersion in water. Sometimes a good soaking from wave spray will set it off.

Additionally I see the need for and use of each device differently.

A MOB/AIS device could be worn by anyone aboard. For those very concerned about safety it could be worn anytime on deck away from the dock.

A PLB belongs in the ditch bag. Ready to go into the life raft or dingy either as a replacement/backup for or in addition to the EPIRB. Other uses for a PLB would be a solo sailor wearing it 100% of the time. They have no one else aboard to assist if they go overboard. And for those of us who like to explore wilderness by dingy or boots. We're away from the mother ship and in areas where calling for help in an emergency on the cell phone isn't going to work.

Think about how you're going to handle a MOB situation on your boat, with your regular crew, in your cruising area.

My plans for recovering MOBs. I leave the plotter's tracking on 100% of the time underway and know how to use the plotter's MOB function. When someone goes overboard there are things that need to be done. In need to notify SAR authorities, put out a distress call to nearby boats, ready the recovery gear. There are usually just two of us aboard and now one is overboard. All of those duties fall to one person. In darkness, restricted visibility, rough weather it gets tougher.

While I'm making the distress calls I can set the plotter's MOB and turn the boat back on it's track line. I use the autopilot to free me to get the recovery gear ready. If my crew was wearing a MOB/AIS search is easy. If not I have the plotter's MOB waypoint and my track line to set me up for the search.

 

[psneeld]

I disagree a PLB belongs in a ditch bag, unless you also have ones for a crewmember or two.

I also don't think separating them has to be done. A MOB is often a USCG/SAR alert anyhow, so dual notification is not a bad thing.

An auto switch for AIS and a manual for the PLB is easily incorporated in a single device, maybe the antenna systems are a bit of an issue, but that sounds like a relatively simple fix.

I still wonder what the stats are and why there isn't a bigger push for something with dual function.

 

[Portage_Bay]

My post was not a statement of how it should be, rather thinking it through. Your experience in SAR and assistance is notable. So I've got some questions for you.

I disagree a PLB belongs in a ditch bag, unless you also have ones for a crewmember or two.

Please expand on this. For my situation I have an auto activated EPIRB in a float free hydrostatic release. I don't have a life raft. I have a RIB on the swim step secured in such a way that it can be deployed in an emergency with a single cut of a knife. The ditch bag is stowed in the lazarette. My plan is an orderly abandon ship where I have time to get the EPIRB and activate it as we board the RIB. The PLB is backup if that plan fails for any reason. It will work if for some reason I can't get to the EPRIB or it does not float free and activate or it floats free but drifts off without me. The PLB will be with me in the RIB when SAR comes if the EPIRB isn't.

Because I boat near shore and inshore I find a MOB/AIS device the ticket to getting an overboard crew member back quickly.

A MOB is often a USCG/SAR alert anyhow, so dual notification is not a bad thing.

Yes, on or near waters where the PLB is registered. My concerns are in regard to a false alarm where multiple, possibly global response is triggered. I am registered with the FCC. I decide to cruise internationally. At this point I am ignorant of how the system works. Not so much the technical function, but the agency and personnel response. The PLB sends out a distress via satellite link. To whom? If a US agency then they have to alert the SAR agency in the area where I am in distress. For my personal boat that could be the remote areas of Canada meaning CCG. For the deliveries I do it could be the Mexican Navy. For those doing more remote passages such as blue water transits or the Northwest Passage the response to a false alarm could be enormously expensive. For those reasons I want the PLB if worn by myself or crew to be manually activated. I still want the MOB/AIS device to be automatic.

 

[psneeld]

Every situation is different...so no "system" works for everyone, all the time.

Several rules generally apply in survival.

1. Things never go as planned, otherwise most of the time they wouldn't turn into survival situations.

2. Because things aren't going as planned, often auto devices don't auto, and you are in a survival situation with what you and your partners have on them, not what was "supposed" to be available.


As far as a MOB device being auto and not alerting the world combined with a PLB that is manually activated? Simple engineering fixes and appropriate.

Hard to know for sure how any worldwide system works, but I believe all countries participating in the Cospas/Sarsat system relays any ELT/EPIRB/PLB signal to the registered nation and simultaneously to the nearest SAR resources. There are multiple websites that explain the system much better...but using a properly registered on will get the right actions taken. Whether or not rescue resources are available, can respond due to weather or even close by depends on a lot.

 

[Hippocampus]

We cruise internationally. Feel in that setting a life raft is a must. Think both AIS and epirb are necessary. We have
Eripb on the boat and clipped.
Epirb in the ditchbag.
These will signal reliably for 48h
AIS and PLB attached to each personal flotation device. They have crotch straps and sea hoods along with light, mirror etc.
One exposure suit.
One MOM-8
Ditchbag (long list of what’s in it ).
All are registered as required.
Also a Spot (will be replaced with a Go).
Life sling

Friends with similar programs have similar set ups with slight variations. Expectations are the boat will be more effective than a outside party for MOB. Even with AIS or a gps coordinates spot on the screens a MOM is necessary for locating the MOB. In any kind of waves locating a MOB without that inflated pole sticking up is nearly impossible. Hence the MOM-8 or similar device. Have no expectations of a SARS response outside 200m. And believe the old saw “by the time they get there you’ve either figured it out or someone is dead”. Believe others vessels not SARS are your equally likely saviors.
Getting someone out of the water even with a swim platform is nearly impossible without mechanical aid. Our engine hoist served on the prior boat. Next will have some from of block and tackle for this function. Hence the life sling.
Evacuation can be necessary very quickly or slowly. You just don’t know. Our plans and training take this into account.
Personally still think coastal is more dangerous than passage. Delay in outside response time can prove lethal. Hence believe even inside 200m you need to be self reliant enough to allow for a response to be meaningful.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Thank you for the good response!

Every situation is different...so no "system" works for everyone, all the time.

Several rules generally apply in survival.
1. Things never go as planned, otherwise most of the time they wouldn't turn into survival situations.

2. Because things aren't going as planned, often auto devices don't auto, and you are in a survival situation with what you and your partners have on them, not what was "supposed" to be available.


As far as a MOB device being auto and not alerting the world combined with a PLB that is manually activated? Simple engineering fixes and appropriate.

Hard to know for sure how any worldwide system works, but I believe all countries participating in the Cospas/Sarsat system relays any ELT/EPIRB/PLB signal to the registered nation and simultaneously to the nearest SAR resources. There are multiple websites that explain the system much better...but using a properly registered on will get the right actions taken. Whether or not rescue resources are available, can respond due to weather or even close by depends on a lot.