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Old 11-24-2021, 04:52 PM   #41
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We transitioned due to wife being unsafe on the foredeck.
Boat was on the hard in Grenada. I was sick and to fly out the next day. Asked her to check water tanks were drained. She fell 11’ from top of the ladder and broke her ankle in three places. Now healed but her balance is just enough off as to be unsafe on passage. I remain in love with oceanic passage making but love my wife more. So the only new boat I ever spec’d and built (Outbound46) was sold. Now on a Nordic tug 42. After 8 years going New England to leewards our plan was the azores then Med. That dream is over. New dream starts. As they say a man who has known the ocean is ruin for land. Loved the deep water now will love the skinny water as well.
Respectfully disagree about weather. In a proper boat and a experienced crew weather is part of package. You hear different estimates and numbers have shifted for the better with improved weather routing. Still, about 80% is below fresh breeze and majority of 8 and above is brief (line squalls, t storms and the like.) The problem is storm force for days. Even then with a proper vessel you deploy the jsd, button up, lay on the sole and wait for it to go by. In 35 + years I been in one storm. Multiple gales but only one storm. Think for most recreational blue water sailors that’s about average. Issue you see now is 2 footitis is a thing of the past. In the past people would do regional coastal, then long jump near shore . Then a brief ocean race or two like Marion Bermuda or Halifax. Then passages. First as crew . Then as captain. So they would have seen gradiually worse and worse conditions. This would be in the company of more experienced people. The fear of the unknown would be conquered.
Now people work their butts off and go buy the biggest baddest boat they can. Maybe they’ve been doing regional coastal for decades but they have no experience of sustained serious weather. Fear is paralyzing. Poor preparation occurs. Bad decisions are made. Was part of Salty Dawg fleet that was caught out. Many boats requested and received outside assistance. Many turned back. Many were damaged. But many had an uneventful sail. Got to know this group fairly well. Those who had an uneventful sail had one thing in common from what I could tell. All went through the 2’itis. The gradual transition as crew and captain to further horizons. If that’s your goal crew for others then captain that transit. As captain learn from your crew. Never stop learning. Don’t think motor or sail makes much difference except fewer blue water recreational motor is made in mom and pop sizes. No issue taking a 28’ Bristol Channel cutter or a Westsail round the clock or 40’ Nordie. See 80’ motor I wouldn’t take out of sight of land. But as voyaging under power has proven there’s no real obstacle to a mom and pop doing blue water and experiencing serious weather. The problem isn’t the boat v crew. The problem is the crew hasn’t put in the dedication and prep work to be able to work the boat to its capabilities. That takes time and the gradual accumulation of experience. Not taught in a course nor a book.
Still, totally agree with Peter. It’s much more difficult to produce a BWB motor vessel at a reasonable price point than sailboat. All the things that improve quality of life in power over sail are likely detrimental to a seaworthy ocean boat. Those wide open spaces makes moving around hazardous. Those wonderful views from inside increase down flooding risks. Designing to move above hull speed makes getting to an acceptable AVS problematic. Don’t accept the EU rating system as a measure. That only applies for the moment the vessel first splashes. Any cruising boat will get worked hard and age over time . All to often have seen A rated vessels at build come nowhere close to being a BWB after as short as a year or two. Realize when first set up provisions concerning durability were curtailed. The many production boat builders had their say. View that system as the floor. Next question is how does that vessel hold up with actual use. Have more trust in Norse, Lloyds and ABYC than anything EU says.
There’s a reason N,KK and others have their rep. Stick built and strong even after being cruised extensively if maintained. Like Peter think I’m on a good boat. But there’s no question in my mind it’s not a BWB so won’t be used as such.
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Old 11-25-2021, 01:55 AM   #42
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I agree with mvweebles, and my last boat was a great sailing motorsailer.

After 15+ years of ownership I realized I was motoring almost exclusively.
This was mainly due to the convenience of not having to do most of the sail
handling myself when taking non-sailors out for the day.

I was also spoiled by having a solid Perkins 4-236 that made motoring a pleasure.

My perfect trawler would probably have a useable sail plan like a Diesel Duck ketch.
Couldnít agree more good luck finding one . I mentioned the duck a few days ago and told I was a inexperience green horn, didnít know anything but I just fell under the spell of The guy that wrote the book on them .And due to that inexperience I would give up all the comfort Of a proper trawler with a covered deck space or whatever he likes . Being a greenhorn I was unable to pick good weather and needed a boat that can handle the perfect storm
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Old 11-25-2021, 03:36 AM   #43
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Sailor > Trawlor?
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Old 11-25-2021, 07:24 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
We transitioned due to wife being unsafe on the foredeck.
Boat was on the hard in Grenada. I was sick and to fly out the next day. Asked her to check water tanks were drained. She fell 11í from top of the ladder and broke her ankle in three places. Now healed but her balance is just enough off as to be unsafe on passage. I remain in love with oceanic passage making but love my wife more. So the only new boat I ever specíd and built (Outbound46) was sold. Now on a Nordic tug 42. After 8 years going New England to leewards our plan was the azores then Med. That dream is over. New dream starts. As they say a man who has known the ocean is ruin for land. Loved the deep water now will love the skinny water as well.
Respectfully disagree about weather. In a proper boat and a experienced crew weather is part of package. You hear different estimates and numbers have shifted for the better with improved weather routing. Still, about 80% is below fresh breeze and majority of 8 and above is brief (line squalls, t storms and the like.) The problem is storm force for days. Even then with a proper vessel you deploy the jsd, button up, lay on the sole and wait for it to go by. In 35 + years I been in one storm. Multiple gales but only one storm. Think for most recreational blue water sailors thatís about average. Issue you see now is 2 footitis is a thing of the past. In the past people would do regional coastal, then long jump near shore . Then a brief ocean race or two like Marion Bermuda or Halifax. Then passages. First as crew . Then as captain. So they would have seen gradiually worse and worse conditions. This would be in the company of more experienced people. The fear of the unknown would be conquered.
Now people work their butts off and go buy the biggest baddest boat they can. Maybe theyíve been doing regional coastal for decades but they have no experience of sustained serious weather. Fear is paralyzing. Poor preparation occurs. Bad decisions are made. Was part of Salty Dawg fleet that was caught out. Many boats requested and received outside assistance. Many turned back. Many were damaged. But many had an uneventful sail. Got to know this group fairly well. Those who had an uneventful sail had one thing in common from what I could tell. All went through the 2íitis. The gradual transition as crew and captain to further horizons. If thatís your goal crew for others then captain that transit. As captain learn from your crew. Never stop learning. Donít think motor or sail makes much difference except fewer blue water recreational motor is made in mom and pop sizes. No issue taking a 28í Bristol Channel cutter or a Westsail round the clock or 40í Nordie. See 80í motor I wouldnít take out of sight of land. But as voyaging under power has proven thereís no real obstacle to a mom and pop doing blue water and experiencing serious weather. The problem isnít the boat v crew. The problem is the crew hasnít put in the dedication and prep work to be able to work the boat to its capabilities. That takes time and the gradual accumulation of experience. Not taught in a course nor a book.
Still, totally agree with Peter. Itís much more difficult to produce a BWB motor vessel at a reasonable price point than sailboat. All the things that improve quality of life in power over sail are likely detrimental to a seaworthy ocean boat. Those wide open spaces makes moving around hazardous. Those wonderful views from inside increase down flooding risks. Designing to move above hull speed makes getting to an acceptable AVS problematic. Donít accept the EU rating system as a measure. That only applies for the moment the vessel first splashes. Any cruising boat will get worked hard and age over time . All to often have seen A rated vessels at build come nowhere close to being a BWB after as short as a year or two. Realize when first set up provisions concerning durability were curtailed. The many production boat builders had their say. View that system as the floor. Next question is how does that vessel hold up with actual use. Have more trust in Norse, Lloyds and ABYC than anything EU says.
Thereís a reason N,KK and others have their rep. Stick built and strong even after being cruised extensively if maintained. Like Peter think Iím on a good boat. But thereís no question in my mind itís not a BWB so wonít be used as such.
I have been slow to come around to the CE Rating system. Im only partially there. Mostly supportive that there is a system even if flawed. I'm sure builders 'study for the exam' so the rating classification is a maximum vs a minimum. But at least there is something that correlates design with a use case.

A word about that use csse: for CE A, above 40 kts wind and 13 foot seas (Force 8). Note that's combined. Seeing 40 kts is uncommon but not rare. Seeing 13 foot seas is uncommon for recreational boaters. Seeing them together is really, really bad weather because it drives the period between waves down to single digit seconds which takes a lot of atmospheric energy.

Nordhavn builds a nice boat. Well thought out and well executed with strong customer support network. Those are all good reasons to recommend the brand. But few need the design and I wish so many posters would think twice before recommending them so quickly to newbies. Many transitioning sailors have excellent seamanship skills and can safely and comfortably move a wide spectrum of boats on long coastal passages. Someone may want and can afford the extra insurance of a CE A boat (or equivalent), but too many on forums like this immedialy jump to the recommendation that you need an N or KK. These are of course nice boats which is reason enough to own one. But very, very few need them and even then, just for a small fraction of their boating time.

In short: The chorus of recommendation is misleading. Hippocampus has been a great example of selecting the right boat for his usage and, failing that, adjusting his usage slightly to adapt to the boat he was able to purchase. That's a good example of seamanship skills.

Peter
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Old 11-25-2021, 07:54 AM   #45
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Couldnít agree more good luck finding one . I mentioned the duck a few days ago and told I was a inexperience green horn, didnít know anything but I just fell under the spell of The guy that wrote the book on them .And due to that inexperience I would give up all the comfort Of a proper trawler with a covered deck space or whatever he likes . Being a greenhorn I was unable to pick good weather and needed a boat that can handle the perfect storm
That would be me who said you were a newbie. I said it because you are so forceful in defining a trawler in a narrow manner - obviously a disciple of George Beuhler (RIP). I met George long before he was famous, and I am very familiar with the evolution of Seahorse Marine.

I pinned you as a rare type of newbie because you act and write like a very special subset - those who are so confident of their book-formed opinion that they believe they have earned the right to forcefully and obnoxiously interject. They wantonly derail and hijack threads. They use remedial argumentation techniques and mistake their ignorance as genius because they are the only person who sees the dim light they see. Comes off as drivel.

This rare breed of newbie is insecure about their credentials and pontificates about outlandish accompaniments that do not have the ring of truth. They form opinions and cannot see past them. Ford Lehman bad. Diesel Duck good. Wet exhaust bad. Dry exhaust good. Dock queen whatever. That type of simplistic thinking is the hallmark of early learning and development. and is usially a springboard for discovery. It's important because it creates a context to be inquisitive and we've all been there. But I guess it's possible for someone to never advance past this stage. The boating version of "failure to launch." To never use question marks at the end of sentences.

If you're not that special (and fortunately rare) class of newbie but rather just arrogant snd obnoxious by nature, well, I apologize.

Peter
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Old 11-25-2021, 09:31 AM   #46
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Scooby please read Peter’s posts understanding there’s a difference between wisdom gained by experience and knowledge. He posts much wisdom. There’s a bit of naval history that may inform your thinking.
George was enamored by trollers not trawlers. A hull form with more rocker and having hard chines. This allowed simple strong, inexpensive construction in wood while preserving relatively low frontal plane and parasitic drag hence requiring low HP while operating in full displacement speeds. Due to the chines the harmonic rolling frequency was favorable while working these fishboats. Fuel costs kept moderate and popularity in the NW increased. He astutely saw this hull form was suitable for voyaging recreational power craft. Adding fin stabilization to these vessels markly increases expense and complexity requiring increase electrons +/or hydraulics. So fish +/sails are used as stabilization. Both have significant inherent problems in coastal use that can’t be circumvented. Sails don’t work unless loaded. Fish are problematic in skinny water. So if your use is voyaging the Ducks are a viable choice as compared to soft chined or round hulls but for near shore or coastal particularly when done in steel with its issues may not be the best choice for most of us. You live on a boat. Those specialized for one use pattern limit your quality of life in other patterns. When boat hunting the DD 46 and 42 were near the top of our list. They are fine vessels. Came very close to buying a heavily modified 46 . He wanted $650k but with his modifications boat was good value. However even when we were voyaging that activity was less than 10% of usage. Came to the decision there are better platforms for our usage. All boats are compromises. Educate yourself not only as to the benefits of a particular hull form but also to its negatives. Peter was only trying to make you aware of that fact. Go get a DD. They’re a fine boat and excellent value. Just realize they are a compromise as are all boats.
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Old 11-25-2021, 10:09 AM   #47
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Hippocampus- did those DDs you looked at have wet exhaust? I assume they were steel Seahorse built. Beuhler and Seahorse both evolved over time. Both wanted dry exhaust though for different reasons. Beuhler was KISS incarnate. Seahorse was trying to market as affordable alternative to Nordhavn. I worked with an early owner - Apparently neither Beuhler nor Seahorse had much experience with dry exhaust in a deep engine room of a boat with living space above the engine room. According to the owner, Seahorse eventually gave up a on dry stack and went wet. Curious what system they used in later boats.

BTW - that early owner was interesting in his own right. He brought the DD38 on it's own bottom from China. He had very little prior boating experience and did the trip singlehanded to California with just one or two stops as he didn't have harbor charts. I met him at a TrawlerFest in Alameda in San Francisco. He sheepishly asked me for some docking lessons as he had only docked the boat a few times and was frequently single handing. Turns out half his problem was his boat had the PH door on stbd side but had a RH prop so stern pulled to port when docking. Hopefully Seahorse paired things a bit better on future builds.

Peter

EDIT. Interesting article from Beuhler on dry stack heat. Maybe it was only Seahorse that wanted dry stack for marketing purposes. I do remember Beuhler being a proponent of Deutz air cooled engines. He definitely had a unique perspective.

https://georgebuehler.com/stack-heat/
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Old 11-25-2021, 10:56 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
That would be me who said you were a newbie. I said it because you are so forceful in defining a trawler in a narrow manner - obviously a disciple of George Beuhler (RIP). I met George long before he was famous, and I am very familiar with the evolution of Seahorse Marine.

I pinned you as a rare type of newbie because you act and write like a very special subset - those who are so confident of their book-formed opinion that they believe they have earned the right to forcefully and obnoxiously interject. They wantonly derail and hijack threads. They use remedial argumentation techniques and mistake their ignorance as genius because they are the only person who sees the dim light they see. Comes off as drivel.

This rare breed of newbie is insecure about their credentials and pontificates about outlandish accompaniments that do not have the ring of truth. They form opinions and cannot see past them. Ford Lehman bad. Diesel Duck good. Wet exhaust bad. Dry exhaust good. Dock queen whatever. That type of simplistic thinking is the hallmark of early learning and development. and is usially a springboard for discovery. It's important because it creates a context to be inquisitive and we've all been there. But I guess it's possible for someone to never advance past this stage. The boating version of "failure to launch." To never use question marks at the end of sentences.

If you're not that special (and fortunately rare) class of newbie but rather just arrogant snd obnoxious by nature, well, I apologize.

Peter
You call me arrogant and obnoxious or whatever terms you use fine .Iím not looking for any friends I have my wife and my dog thatís enough for me . I try to keep my responses short and to the point now my writing skills are horrible I Taught myself how to read and write .I donít think I should have to submit a rťsumť do you have my point taken seriously especially when itís so obviously right.I bought my first Taiwanese trawler in 1987 and rarely kept one for more than a year. Iím certain I Have owned more than 20 of them all old as of late anyways neglected Dock queens.Oh by the way I never learn punctuation either I donít think itís all that hard to understand my writing but OK.You Right write quite well and your punctuation and your vocabulary is quite good How are you at Tigg welding .As far as Me being arrogant and obnoxious OK.One thing at a time 1. Dry exhaust Every boat Iíve ever owned had wet exhaust Iíve seen many boat engines either damaged or ruined by poorly designed or maintained wet exhaust . But it is the industry standard for recreational boats. Iíve come to the conclusion that I think it should be the other way around for obvious reasons ,If for no other reason adapting an industrial engine would be common place And make it much easier for people to re-power their boats ,a lot of boats get a Abandoned because of bad engines .I wouldnít buy a boat that needed to be re-powered because it didnít pencil out #2 Lehman engines again Iíve owned more than 20 of them am very familiar with that engine which is why Iíve come to this conclusion , theyíre not worth investing any money in I personally think they would make a better boat anchor they werenít a particularly good engine to begin with and they havenít produced them for several decades now. I wonder why? The Detroit Series 71 is a very good engine also an old engine a good one ,or a Cummings n14 both worth rebuilding if you Ever need to .This isnít opinion it is fact call it arrogance if you like but I doesnít change anything .I could go on and on itís already getting too long , how they power boats twin engine north of 200 hp each to go on extra four knots not smart in my opinion .#3 George Bueller ,Diesel duck,Seahorse Marine never heard any of these names until fairly recently. I was surprised that somebody had came to the same conclusion I have come to .I never heard anybody talking about it .First diesel duck boat I ever saw was when I was sitting on the back deck of my 42 Ponderosa also a Taiwanese boat one of the better ones .I saw this boat and I couldnít figure out exactly what it was but I knew I liked it .I had no idea seahorse marine even existed but it was nice to hear about somebody finally building a boat that I agree with this is enough of my drivel I donít know who is the bigger AW me or you You decide donít care
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Old 11-25-2021, 12:34 PM   #49
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Dry exhaust Every boat Iíve ever owned had wet exhaust Iíve seen many boat engines either damaged or ruined by poorly designed or maintained wet exhaust . But it is the industry standard for recreational boats. Iíve come to the conclusion that I think it should be the other way around for obvious reasons ,If for no other reason adapting an industrial engine would be common place And make it much easier for people to re-power their boats ,a lot of boats get a Abandoned because of bad engines .I wouldnít buy a boat that needed to be re-powered because it didnít pencil out
You might want to start a separate thread on dry vs wet for your NT26. There are some interesting nuances that I've learned on this forum that have steered me away from dry to wet. I was also surprised at the article off Beuhlers website that I posted up-thread that cites enough challenges with dry that he proposed wet exhaust (albeit with an air cooler engine) .

Good luck with whatever direction you chose. Pictures are always exciting

Peter
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Old 11-25-2021, 12:59 PM   #50
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That would be me who said you were a newbie. I said it because you are so forceful in defining a trawler in a narrow manner - obviously a disciple of George Beuhler (RIP). I met George long before he was famous, and I am very familiar with the evolution of Seahorse Marine.

I pinned you as a rare type of newbie because you act and write like a very special subset - those who are so confident of their book-formed opinion that they believe they have earned the right to forcefully and obnoxiously interject. They wantonly derail and hijack threads. They use remedial argumentation techniques and mistake their ignorance as genius because they are the only person who sees the dim light they see. Comes off as drivel.

This rare breed of newbie is insecure about their credentials and pontificates about outlandish accompaniments that do not have the ring of truth. They form opinions and cannot see past them. Ford Lehman bad. Diesel Duck good. Wet exhaust bad. Dry exhaust good. Dock queen whatever. That type of simplistic thinking is the hallmark of early learning and development. and is usially a springboard for discovery. It's important because it creates a context to be inquisitive and we've all been there. But I guess it's possible for someone to never advance past this stage. The boating version of "failure to launch." To never use question marks at the end of sentences.

If you're not that special (and fortunately rare) class of newbie but rather just arrogant snd obnoxious by nature, well, I apologize.

Peter
There’s a lot of wisdom in this post.
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Old Yesterday, 07:04 AM   #51
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Paragraphs are a good thing.

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Old Yesterday, 11:26 AM   #52
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We were interested in MobyDuck and Mauri. Very different approaches to using the same basic hull. Ended up Mauri was of more interest to us but due to Covid restrictions the logistics were just too difficult. The thought that went into Moby Duck was quite evident and she’s a great full time long distance cruising platform but cost of ownership didn’t make sense. You need to consider cost in selling price out and time to sell her. Appreciated when I sold the sailboat got full ask on first offer. Was sold before she hit yacht world. Think how limited the market is for true BWB that needs to be part of the equation. GRP Ns, KKs and the like are apparently rarely used to their capabilities so turn over is rapid and at or near ask. Can’t count on that with one offs or single purpose BWBs except for those exceptions. Even a drop dead gorgeous Artnautica 58 has sat on the market much longer than one would expect.
BTW- while practicing medicine in order to help keep my brain straight went through the welding course at the local vol tech. Learned TIG, MIG, stick and how to play with plasma cutting and the like. Was great fun and got good enough to pull puddles that passed to be certified weren’t heat distorted even using thin Al. Could use some improvement in stick and when doing SS but otherwise feel very comfortable I can do what I want particularly with a millermatic. Difficult with forums to know the skill,set, background and experience of who you’re talking with Scooby. A poster here signs with a wonderful phrase pointing out everyone you meet has something they can teach you. I like to believe when you stop learning they have better thrown dirt in your face or they soon will.
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Old Yesterday, 01:52 PM   #53
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We were interested in MobyDuck and Mauri. Very different approaches to using the same basic hull. Ended up Mauri was of more interest to us but due to Covid restrictions the logistics were just too difficult. The thought that went into Moby Duck was quite evident and sheís a great full time long distance cruising platform but cost of ownership didnít make sense. You need to consider cost in selling price out and time to sell her. Appreciated when I sold the sailboat got full ask on first offer. Was sold before she hit yacht world. Think how limited the market is for true BWB that needs to be part of the equation. GRP Ns, KKs and the like are apparently rarely used to their capabilities so turn over is rapid and at or near ask. Canít count on that with one offs or single purpose BWBs except for those exceptions. Even a drop dead gorgeous Artnautica 58 has sat on the market much longer than one would expect.
BTW- while practicing medicine in order to help keep my brain straight went through the welding course at the local vol tech. Learned TIG, MIG, stick and how to play with plasma cutting and the like. Was great fun and got good enough to pull puddles that passed to be certified werenít heat distorted even using thin Al. Could use some improvement in stick and when doing SS but otherwise feel very comfortable I can do what I want particularly with a millermatic. Difficult with forums to know the skill,set, background and experience of who youíre talking with Scooby. A poster here signs with a wonderful phrase pointing out everyone you meet has something they can teach you. I like to believe when you stop learning they have better thrown dirt in your face or they soon will.
I want to thank you this is the kind of response I was hoping to get . Although my writing style isnít conducive to this type of response I guess . I have been obsessed lately on Specing engines and Controllable pitch propellers .75 hp with a controllable pitch propeller and near 10 knot cruise for a 58 ft Boat Now thatís what Iím talking about . The 58 artnautica Is an interesting design modern and sleek if you ask me .His webpage on the boat is an interesting read .Wasnít able to find a used one or even a recently sold used one .A new one Is probably a million dollars maybe the reason that the one you mentioned was for sale for so long .It would be nice if these boats were the norm instead of the exception they donít have to be 60 ft long .Although to get a 10 knot cruise They would need to be .Iíve been trying to find a controllable pitch propeller ,the only thing that I have seen is tens of thousands of dollars not doable for me .The auto prop seems interesting it automatically adjusts supposedly accomplishing the same thing ,although I do wonder, that propeller is north of $5000 Another hard pill to swallow for me .But you really do need a way of getting just the right pitch for efficiency .If anybody knows of a controllable pitch system thatís affordable I would be grateful .As a sidenote I just recently replaced a welder that was stolen with an Everlast 250 amp AC tig welder. I like it quite well .Fraction of the cost of an industry standard Miller you know Chinese stuff It has all the bells and whistleís and I can weld aluminum with it
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Old Yesterday, 02:36 PM   #54
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It's been DECADES since our engine was last produced!

Alas, woe is me, I am crushed (insert suitable cries and lamentations) to discover that my boat and it's drive train are totally unsuitable to our intended use of sailing in water deeper than say 10', or (horrors of horrors) perhaps even occasionally out of sight of land!

I didn't realize that whether or not they are still produced is THE litmus test for whether a specific engine was a good engine or not. Here I was thinking we had bought a boat of good design, and with a good engine. I guess I'll have to bow to superior knowledge on engines and especially since our engine was last manufactured in 1994 I mean, it's been DECADES since my engine was last produced . . . so according to the obviously vast experience and knowledge out there, it is obviously only good for . . . what was it you said? Ah, yes, a boat anchor, I believe you said.

Here I am now, a sadly wiser and better educated mariner due to your sage advice.

Looking forward to your next piece of wisdom that I can scribe into stone.

By the way, our 50' Beebe Passagemaker is powered with a Gardner 8LXB, coupled to a Hundested CPP through a reducing gear.




Did anyone notice that I used sentences, punctuation, and even the occasional (wait for it) PARAGRAPH in my above post?
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Old Yesterday, 03:45 PM   #55
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Vessel Model: Nordic tug 26
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 248
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowgoesit View Post
Alas, woe is me, I am crushed (insert suitable cries and lamentations) to discover that my boat and it's drive train are totally unsuitable to our intended use of sailing in water deeper than say 10', or (horrors of horrors) perhaps even occasionally out of sight of land!

I didn't realize that whether or not they are still produced is THE litmus test for whether a specific engine was a good engine or not. Here I was thinking we had bought a boat of good design, and with a good engine. I guess I'll have to bow to superior knowledge on engines and especially since our engine was last manufactured in 1994 I mean, it's been DECADES since my engine was last produced . . . so according to the obviously vast experience and knowledge out there, it is obviously only good for . . . what was it you said? Ah, yes, a boat anchor, I believe you said.

Here I am now, a sadly wiser and better educated mariner due to your sage advice.

Looking forward to your next piece of wisdom that I can scribe into stone.

By the way, our 50' Beebe Passagemaker is powered with a Gardner 8LXB, coupled to a Hundested CPP through a reducing gear.




Did anyone notice that I used sentences, punctuation, and even the occasional (wait for it) PARAGRAPH in my above post?
Who am I to disappoint you I stand by my statement about the Ford Lehman ,if my drum winch was larger I might just use one for a boat anchor just for the fun of it .anyways getting past that I donít know too much about the gardeners what I do know theyíre supposed to be a very good engine old school of course slow turning motors accounts for a lot of the longevity, being able to repair one in pieces thereís another big plus ,parts are a rare expensive and hard to find .Detroit Se 71 will probably be a very good engine for your boat you can do all the same things repair individual cylinders, long-lived Great motors parts are everywhere and cheap as far as ccp Systems . Hundested units would be awesome if they didnít cost tens of thousands of dollars ,Iím looking for something affordable if you happen to know anything about that .even an auto prop supposed to do the same thing is north of 5000 .I quite enjoy your sarcasm My favorite type of humor
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Old Today, 12:30 AM   #56
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City: Puget Sound
Vessel Name: Muirgen
Vessel Model: 50' Beebe Passagemaker
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 1,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby5959 View Post
Who am I to disappoint you I stand by my statement about the Ford Lehman ,if my drum winch was larger I might just use one for a boat anchor just for the fun of it .anyways getting past that I donít know too much about the gardeners what I do know theyíre supposed to be a very good engine old school of course slow turning motors accounts for a lot of the longevity, being able to repair one in pieces thereís another big plus ,parts are a rare expensive and hard to find .Detroit Se 71 will probably be a very good engine for your boat you can do all the same things repair individual cylinders, long-lived Great motors parts are everywhere and cheap as far as ccp Systems . Hundested units would be awesome if they didnít cost tens of thousands of dollars ,Iím looking for something affordable if you happen to know anything about that .even an auto prop supposed to do the same thing is north of 5000 .I quite enjoy your sarcasm My favorite type of humor

Actually, you may want to go back and rethink "what you know" about Gardners. Parts are exceptionally easy to procure, and not that expensive. Even if you can't find source them in the US for some reason, (and they are readily available in the PNW, can't speak to other markets) you can order gaskets, injectors, seals, pistons, rings, valves, to and including crank shafts, etc directly from England. One phone call to Mike at Gardner, and he can have stuff to you pretty much anywhere in the US next day air, or if you're not in a hurry, within 5 days regular post. Cost isn't much more than going down to the local store and getting Cat parts, or Cummins parts either. I was favorably impressed with his pricing. I gave him a short list of common parts for our engine, he quoted the prices, all on hand, and said less than a week to get them. Prices including shipping were VERY reasonable!

As to the Hundested, We bought used, so the original builder/buyer paid the premium for that setup, we merely benefited from his good taste! Parts are likewise readily available, and unless you are buying a whole new CPP actuating mechanism, or new prop, not all the unreasonable . . . and by the way, a spare blade for the prop was included in the spares on the boat when we purchased.

I am definitely NOT in agreement with you regarding the Ford Lehman engines. Had we not found our current boat, I was looking specifically for a boat with Lehmans, preferably 135's, or a John Deere, with a fall back of Perkins. Not a great fan of Volvo's, but I've never owned one personally, so I can't speak to them except from what I've been told by others who owned them and had problems. They appear to be good engines until you have problems . . . but they do have their proponents. I've owned Cats, Cummins, and even an old Norberg Knight, a marinized Hercules flat head gas engine. They all had their uses, and the best engine I ever had was the one I currently owned at the time. Play nice with them, whatever they are, treat them right, and they will treat YOU right!
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Vessel Name: Muirgen
Vessel Model: 50' Beebe Passagemaker
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Old Today, 06:30 AM   #57
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City: Annapolis
Vessel Model: 58' Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 5,747
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Originally Posted by slowgoesit View Post
Did anyone notice that I used sentences, punctuation, and even the occasional (wait for it) PARAGRAPH in my above post?
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Old Today, 11:26 AM   #58
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City: Newport, R.I.
Vessel Name: Hippocampus
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 1,351
SGT you have a boat to drool over with a great set up. Still wonder if the general thinking for LRCs has some merit. Each hull and engine has a sweet spot. The thoughtful builder or owner/operator will have the engine spec’d to match the sweet spot of the hull. So both will be operating in their sweet spots in the absence of the complexities of variable pitch and tuning to exhaust temperatures. Now with the decrease in intolerance of long operation at various loading parameters from electronically controlled common rail even more flexibility is available and less benefit from variable pitch.
So at this time do you think CPP is still necessary for a long distance cruising boat?
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