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Old 09-13-2019, 12:33 PM   #21
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...I honestly don't think you need a kicker as an aux. There thousands of commercial fishing boats running asingle diesel that go very, very far offshore without a 'get home' engine.
My concern would be near shore such as rounding a point in rough conditions or even in the middle of a 2 mile wide channel with a brisk onshore wind, the engine quits, and there's not enough time to figure things out and fix it...and there's nobody close enough to help in time.
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:17 PM   #22
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Waters on the east coast on average are more benign with more boaters per area than Alaska and many parts of coastal BC and Vancouver Island, particularly the West coast.

For me, if I were to use the kicker to move my boat, it would be at the side where you are suppose to use it with a dinghy. A number of publications endorse this method including Chapman's.

For me and many here in BC and Alaska, the purpose of the swim grid is to carry a dinghy. So in my case, no kicker on the swim grid.

I did seriously look at propane and in fact went to purchase a Lehr but drove away without one. When talking to my good friend, a retired BC Ferries Captain, I asked him his thoughts on propane and electric. His main concern was range. If you are in an isolated area with the main engine conked out how much range do you have with propane and electric.

I find it easier to bring one or two five gallons of gas as part of my paranoia of running out of fuel. With propane, you get less than you think. By law a propane tank can only be filled to 80% so a 20 pound propane tank is really 16 pounds. I have brought along an extra normal 20 pounder only to have the very bottom rust in about ten minutes (okay I exaggerate but not by much). So if I were using a propane tank it would be fiberglass and the tank closest to 20 pounds is 17 and 80 % of 17 is 13.6 far to little fuel to make me feel safe in some of the more desolate locations in BC and Alaska. And filling the propane tank can be a pain in the butt in many marina locations.

https://ca.binnacle.com/p9907/Triden...duct_info.html
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:30 PM   #23
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My concern would be near shore such as rounding a point in rough conditions or even in the middle of a 2 mile wide channel with a brisk onshore wind, the engine quits, and there's not enough time to figure things out and fix it...and there's nobody close enough to help in time.

In those situations, will a small outboard provide enough power to make a big difference? Sure it would help. Even worse are the much narrower channels that we have with strong winds and currents and rather unforgiving shorelines. The best it may offer would be to provide just enough propulsion and control to be able to get anchor down in a safer location.

How fast with your OB push your boat in calm weather?
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:27 PM   #24
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rsn48's suggestion is the best compromise. We all need a decent dinghy, and usually have an outboard to power that. From personal experience, when the main engine died while entering a river mouth to anchor in a sheltered place, I just quickly moved the dinghy round under power and tied it onto a bow cleat. I then found that even in reverse, (as the painter was fixed to the dinghy bow, and there wasn't time to move it aft), I was able to gently tow/coax, guide the mother vessel to a place where we could moor. The fact that the dinghy was a rubber ducky was an added advantage, as I could nudge the boat with it as well, in forward motion just like a tug would.

So no, I definitely agree, forget an outboard as a wing (get home) engine, and set yourself up as above. It won't get you home, but it will allow for a safe mooring while help is summoned. And as others have pointed out. Very unusual for the main engine to quit anyway if maintenance is up to scratch.
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:16 PM   #25
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In those situations, will a small outboard provide enough power to make a big difference?
More power than nothing.

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How fast with your OB push your boat in calm weather?
Lehr estimates a 20lb tank will last 11 hours at 3000 rpm and 5 hours at 5000 rpm...that's enough time in the waters we travel in to find a safe nook/bay to tuck into.
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:43 PM   #26
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How about this "belt and suspenders" approach, when the wind dies an outboard, if that one breaks down, another outboard.
Who knows, maybe there is an inboard engine in the boat too?
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Old 09-13-2019, 11:48 PM   #27
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Lehr estimates a 20lb tank will last 11 hours at 3000 rpm and 5 hours at 5000 rpm...that's enough time in the waters we travel in to find a safe nook/bay to tuck into.

So you've never run out of propane barbequing? Eleven hours is great on a full tank, not so great if the tank is down to 1/4 or less. I don't have a diesel engine, gas instead with two large gas tanks, 80 gallons each. So I can always add more gas to the small tank on the dinghy.

I'm actually a big fan of propane instead of gas, but in our location in the pacific northwest, coastal BC and southern Alaska, for fuel for a boat, not so much. I went out of my way to purchase a small propane fuelled generator so I know it will start even if has been three years since it was started previously. With my Merc kicker I will use Chevron 94 gas without methanol so as to ward off some problems if the engine hasn't been used recently.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:01 AM   #28
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More power than nothing.



Lehr estimates a 20lb tank will last 11 hours at 3000 rpm and 5 hours at 5000 rpm...that's enough time in the waters we travel in to find a safe nook/bay to tuck into.


Thanks for the information Murray. Iím not trying to question or argue with your choice, just trying to figure things out. :-)
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:48 AM   #29
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Thanks for the information Murray. Iím not trying to question or argue with your choice, just trying to figure things out. :-)
No worries
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:59 AM   #30
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So you've never run out of propane barbequing? Eleven hours is great on a full tank, not so great if the tank is down to 1/4 or less. I don't have a diesel engine, gas instead with two large gas tanks, 80 gallons each. So I can always add more gas to the small tank on the dinghy.

I'm actually a big fan of propane instead of gas, but in our location in the pacific northwest, coastal BC and southern Alaska, for fuel for a boat, not so much. I went out of my way to purchase a small propane fuelled generator so I know it will start even if has been three years since it was started previously. With my Merc kicker I will use Chevron 94 gas without methanol so as to ward off some problems if the engine hasn't been used recently.
Don't use the kicker for fishing or barbecuing, so the tank is essentially full.

We don't think of the kicker as a 'get home' device, just a way to get to a safe place when help isn't possible.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:19 AM   #31
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I know on my boat, it doesnít take much power at all to push me along at 5 knots with a bit over a 38í LWL. A typical 9.9 hp would be able to do that, but for how long on a typical sized OB gas tank?
.
All wonderful in theory.
Add in the slightest bit of chop let alone actual waves, a bit of wind, some current.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:24 AM   #32
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My concern would be near shore such as rounding a point in rough conditions or even in the middle of a 2 mile wide channel with a brisk onshore wind, the engine quits, and there's not enough time to figure things out and fix it...and there's nobody close enough to help in time.
But there's enough time to figure out how to get that toy outboard working in a seaway?

We had a high thrust 9.9 on a previous 33ft cat weighing 1.2 tonne in cruise mode.
It barely held ground pushing against 30knots and a few meters of sea.

Doubt it'd do anything on a boat with actual windage and weight.
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Old 09-14-2019, 06:42 AM   #33
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The OP's desire for a 20hp motor should come close to successfully moving and handling the vessel in a moderate seaway. The big if seems for what distance thus how much fuel to carry.

Thus, get the main engine in the best repair state possible. The list of check and replace items is long and potentially time consuming on a new to him vessel. But hopefully just normal PMs will suffice.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:54 AM   #34
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Waters on the east coast on average are more benign with more boaters per area than Alaska and many parts of coastal BC and Vancouver Island, particularly the West coast.

For me, if I were to use the kicker to move my boat, it would be at the side where you are suppose to use it with a dinghy. A number of publications endorse this method including Chapman's.

For me and many here in BC and Alaska, the purpose of the swim grid is to carry a dinghy. So in my case, no kicker on the swim grid.

I did seriously look at propane and in fact went to purchase a Lehr but drove away without one. When talking to my good friend, a retired BC Ferries Captain, I asked him his thoughts on propane and electric. His main concern was range. If you are in an isolated area with the main engine conked out how much range do you have with propane and electric.

I find it easier to bring one or two five gallons of gas as part of my paranoia of running out of fuel. With propane, you get less than you think. By law a propane tank can only be filled to 80% so a 20 pound propane tank is really 16 pounds. I have brought along an extra normal 20 pounder only to have the very bottom rust in about ten minutes (okay I exaggerate but not by much). So if I were using a propane tank it would be fiberglass and the tank closest to 20 pounds is 17 and 80 % of 17 is 13.6 far to little fuel to make me feel safe in some of the more desolate locations in BC and Alaska. And filling the propane tank can be a pain in the butt in many marina locations.

https://ca.binnacle.com/p9907/Triden...duct_info.html
Your not going to be towing mother ship with dinghy alongside in anything other than benign waters, so following your logic of west coast conditions, probably not a real option?
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:32 PM   #35
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But there's enough time to figure out how to get that toy outboard working in a seaway?

We had a high thrust 9.9 on a previous 33ft cat weighing 1.2 tonne in cruise mode.
It barely held ground pushing against 30knots and a few meters of sea.

Doubt it'd do anything on a boat with actual windage and weight.
Sigh...

Sure, we can all cherry pick conditions where our boats will do poorly, even while using the main engine.

What option would you suggest then, knowing radio contact is impossible due to surrounding mountains, you haven't seen another boat for days, dropping the anchor won't help due to mountains plunging nearly vertically into the sea, and even if you fire off an SOS on your SPOT Messenger help is at least several hours away, even by helicopter?

Do you sit idly by while you, your family, and the boat which has faithfully served you for years goes aground or do you fire up the kicker (or dinghy) and try extricating yourself by the most plausible decision path considering the circumstances?

As for a strong head wind...an option might be to use a 'ferry glide' to move sideways.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:42 PM   #36
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Simi 60 wrote;
“But there's enough time to figure out how to get that toy outboard working in a seaway?”

What is it that you wish to accomplish calling somebodies OB a “toy”?

I see you like big. Many here like and prefer small. But I don’t consider anybodies equipment here on TF a toy.
Drones ? TV ? Could be so there may be a toy here and there. But when your engine quits the get home whatever is anything but a toy.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:49 PM   #37
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All wonderful in theory.

Add in the slightest bit of chop let alone actual waves, a bit of wind, some current.

Yup. Murray certainly gets chop, wind, and current. However, the outboard would be very quick and easy to fire up and potentially give enough help to allow you to set an anchor, safely negotiate the downstream current etc... to get to a safer spot to then figure out why the main engine quit.
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:28 PM   #38
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Sigh...

Sure, we can all cherry pick conditions where our boats will do poorly, even while using the main engine.

,

They were the conditions you picked

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. Originally Posted by MurrayM
My concern would be near shore such as rounding a point in rough conditions or even in the middle of a 2 mile wide channel with a brisk onshore wind, the engine quits,
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. What option would you suggest then
I'd certainly try anything, I just wouldn't hold my breath thinking a small low thrust outboard on a plunging transom pushing a heavy boat in rough conditions is the answer.
Id be more inclined to make sure the main gear was not going to let me down in the first place.
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:32 PM   #39
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They were the conditions you picked.
Nope...you suggested 30 knots.

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I'd certainly try anything, I just wouldn't hold my breath thinking a small low thrust outboard on a plunging transom pushing a heavy boat in rough conditions is the answer.
What then? Oars?

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Id be more inclined to make sure the main gear was not going to let me down in the first place.
Well, Duh...
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Old 09-14-2019, 02:38 PM   #40
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What is it that you wish to accomplish calling somebodies OB a “toy”?

.
No need to get upset.
Merely stating the fact that any small strap on outboard is essentially a "toy" in comparison to the primary diesel engine.
Different story if you are talking high thrust Yamaha 50 or 60 that are made with a heavy load in mind.

https://yamahaoutboards.com/en-us/ho...st/high-thrust
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