Setting up a PC, Time Zero and Furuno networks

[ChristineKling]

I chimed in asking for help on the recent thread about a Nav Computer Monitor. I was really asking a networking question, so rather than hijack that thread, I decided to start something new.

Wayne and I are building our new 78-ft. aluminium passagemaker Möbius, and I have taken over the networking duties. I am in way over my head, but determined to learn. The boatyard would normally hire a specialist to do this, but if we can figure out how to install all this ourselves, then hopefully, we can fix it when it inevitably packs it in.

We are going as a pure PC boat, i.e. no MFDs. I have read that Furuno wants all their equipment on an isolated network. We have a FAR1525 black box radar and the BBD-S1 bottom discriminating sounder that both output ethernet, not N2K. We'll have tons of other stuff on ethernet like the Flir camera, the engine room and security cameras, the Victron GX devices, the Wakespeed regulators, Nemo Gateway, Synology NAS, and all the Internet paraphernalia.

We intend to have two Windows 10 computers, a fairly powerful PC I built and a back up NUC, both running TZ Pro with 2 monitors up and two down and 2 TV screens. I'm trying to figure out how to design the boat's ethernet network to keep the Furuno gear happy, but to have all info available on all screens. I gather from the conversation on the previous thread that this will require firewalls and additional routers and switches.

If you can help with more specific suggestions for gear or if you have a drawing of your boat's network, please share. I need to climb my way up this learning curve.

Thanks in advance.

Christine
http://mobius.world

 

[rslifkin]

Do you have any thoughts on what you want to run for network switches? If you run something that supports VLANs you can maintain 2 functionally separate networks without needing 2 separate switches or 2 cables to PCs that need to be on both networks. You can feed both virtual networks over 1 cable to each PC.

Personally, despite the quirks of having a PC on 2 networks at the same time, I'd prefer that instead of routing between the 2 networks in this case. It's less likely to introduce weirdness with Furuno's gear wanting to be isolated.

 

[DDW]

With Windows 10 running on the PCs, I'd want to make sure I had an iPad for backup navigation. ;-)

 

[teknoid]

Not sure how current this is, but interesting observations here: http://furunousaforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2743&hilit=Subnet&sid=a232b6be1bf4500533047fd191eda359

 

[syjos]

With Windows 10 running on the PCs, I'd want to make sure I had an iPad for backup navigation. ;-)

I believe the PO intends to have 2 Win 10 PC's which should back each other up.

 

[HenryD]

I did a similar setup with two Lenovo "Tiny" computers. I had access to Cisco switches and routers so I setup a switch with VLANs. The radar (for me is Simard) floods the LAN so it is on it's VLAN. I found this not as useful as I wished so direct connected it to the Simrad Chartplotter. My radar would not display as an overlay on the Rosepoint. I have Rosepoint Coastal Explorer on both PCs. The HDMI output show on both Simard displays. Maretron M2KView runs on one of the PCs. I use a Cradlepoint router with cellular interface and my Wifi Extender plugged into it.

I would recommend drawing out your network (I used Visio).
I also have a third Lenovo P92T computer that is built and then disconnected and stored as a plug/play backup.

 

[ChristineKling]

Do you have any thoughts on what you want to run for network switches? If you run something that supports VLANs you can maintain 2 functionally separate networks without needing 2 separate switches or 2 cables to PCs that need to be on both networks. You can feed both virtual networks over 1 cable to each PC.

Personally, despite the quirks of having a PC on 2 networks at the same time, I'd prefer that instead of routing between the 2 networks in this case. It's less likely to introduce weirdness with Furuno's gear wanting to be isolated.

I don't know yet what type of switches I'll be using. We will need several. I am trying to steer away from VLANs because they seem inherently less reliable. I'd like things to be hard wired on the boat.

I spoke to a friend who suggested adding additional network ports to both computers, dedicating one PC to Furuno and the other to everything else and then using a bridge to join them. But my searches so far for a bridge like that have produced nothing. Perhaps VLANs have made them obsolete.

Thanks for your response!

Christine
http://mobius.world

 

[ChristineKling]

With Windows 10 running on the PCs, I'd want to make sure I had an iPad for backup navigation. ;-)

Hey, I'm normally a Mac person, so I'm right with you! I still love my MacENC.

Actually, we have 3 older iPads and CE running on a laptop. We have lots of back-ups.

We better, though, because husband wants to get from the Med to BC and he is starting to look at the NW Passage!

Christine
http://mobius.world

 

[ChristineKling]

I did a similar setup with two Lenovo "Tiny" computers. I had access to Cisco switches and routers so I setup a switch with VLANs. The radar (for me is Simard) floods the LAN so it is on it's VLAN. I found this not as useful as I wished so direct connected it to the Simrad Chartplotter. My radar would not display as an overlay on the Rosepoint. I have Rosepoint Coastal Explorer on both PCs. The HDMI output show on both Simard displays. Maretron M2KView runs on one of the PCs. I use a Cradlepoint router with cellular interface and my Wifi Extender plugged into it.

I would recommend drawing out your network (I used Visio).
I also have a third Lenovo P92T computer that is built and then disconnected and stored as a plug/play backup.

Thanks Henry. Yes, I was working on my pencil sketch yesterday when I decided to post here. I felt like I couldn't make the drawing until I got more info, but I shouldn't really ask for info without a drawing...... It's a cart before the horse kinda thing.

Anyway, I looked at Visio, but decided to use the free version of Lucidchart (we are building a boat after all). It seems to be working okay.

Thanks for your input.

Christine
http://mobius.world

 

[STB]

Hey Christine,

I dont know anything about Time Zero -- I use OpenCPN. But, I do have a 4G radar, GPS, 2 PCs with touch screens, Class-A AIS, a Raymarine Autopilot and sensor core, wind speed and direction, boat speed and water temp, 2xDSC-VHF(With Class-C AIS), and a few other things all playing nicely together and fully integrated as well as the ability to connect my laptop wirelessly or wired.

I posted about the set up, including my mis-steps and corrections in a thread, and updated it a few times as I learned things over the build out:
-- https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/electronics-upgrade-integration-update-43162.html

It didnt turn out to be that complicated in the end. Essentially, all of the data but radar was put onto a NMEA-200/ST-NG bus, which interconnected most things. Things that were NMEA-0183-Only, e.g. OpenCPN and some radios got bridged to the NMEA-2000 bus with converters.

Radar data got put onto a 12V Ethernet switch hard wired to the 2PCs and with wireless for the laptop. The NMEA-2000 was bridged to the Ethernet via a ShipModul MiniPlex3. Because modern Ethernet and WiFi are so fast as compared to NMEA-2000 and the Ethernet switch has plenty of buffering, the NMEA data didn't zap the radar data, or vice versa. The PCs use 12V touch screens, weather proof on the flybridge, and the PCs use point-of-use inverters to run from 12V. Ive never needed it, but since they are cheap for that wattage, I keep a 3rd inverter as a spare.

A lot of complexity I started with, e.g. USB to the MiniPlex3, turned out to be unneeded. And, some things I simplified, e.g. letting the VHF radios use their own GPS, disconnecting the USB GPS from the computers unless the sensor core fails, and making the class-A AIS transciever the only source of AIS data on the network so Ibdidnt proximity alarm on myself.

 

[caltexflanc]

As mentioned by Syjos, The Furuno forum and support site would be a great place to post your issues. https://www.furunousa.com/en/get_support

A call to Furuno would be helpful too. Remind me why you are using Windows rather than OSX based gear? Personally I'd go with a Furuno black box system, we had one on on our Hatteras and loved the flexibility. It played well outputting data to the MacENC equipped MacBook and iMac on board. Rock solid reliability and great factory support. It was all glued together with off the shelf 2007-era ethernet and video switches and back then, serial port to USB adapters. The technology available now is so much better and more flexible than then.

 

[STB]

I guess what I can say is that, in my case, things started out complex until I really understood how simple they could be:
-- All NMEA data goes to the NMEA-2000 (ST-NG) bus. Use a converter at each NMEA-0183 device, as needed, including PCs.
-- Radar over the wired Ethernet bus to the PCs
-- Only place NMEA traffic and Radar traffic mix is that both go the the Ethernet switch to go out over wireless to a laptop which can get,the NMEA via a virtual serial port and radar data via IP.

 

[Pete Meisinger]

What I don't know about computers could easily fill a book. That being said, am I missing something? Sounds to me like you will be mixing apple/Mac with some P.C.s . This does not sound good to me.

Kind of Apples to Oranges isn't it?

pete

 

[wkearney99]

Furuno's website is 'touchy' about discussions that go into 'too much' detail about networking. I know, I've had threads locked, and iirc, a post deleted. So that might not be the best place to really get into hashing out networking nuances with Furuno gear.

You can mix-and-match lots of stuff. How much is up to the limits of your patience. Know, however, that trying to find a less expensive route almost always fails. Oh sure, lots of stuff is "supposed to work"... yet doesn't. Your time and frustration are worth something, spend money to avoid driving yourself crazy.

One hassle a lot of folks run into is not having enough cabling in the right places. As in, just one wired Ethernet link leading to/from various stations. Best bet is always run two and run 'em all back to a central location. This way you can have your plotter-specific stuff on one segment, but PCs or any non-navigation stuff on a separate one. The challenge lies in how to bridge between the two. It may take some configuring but a decent Ethernet router can be configured to properly manage which traffic goes where. This way your nav stuff is "as the factory intends" and everything else is at your discretion.

Yes, this will mean some duplication of hardware, mainly the wire, a router and some network switches. But these days that stuff is cheap and relatively easy on power consumption.

So any time you start considering all-in-one network boxes.... stop and reconsider. Combined router/wifi/cell gizmos are often a pain in the ass to setup if you have anything other than a very basic residential network setup.

Separate gear may take extra configuring, but you won't get stuck with "can't get there from here" limitations. Been there, done that, got a bin full of "almost" attempts from linksys, zyxel and others. Now it's a pfsense router on a fanless PC and separate Ubiquiti WiFi access points. I'm shopping for a new cellular network interface this season. These days local wifi is terrible and cell data has much better unlimited (albeit sometimes throttled) data plans.

 

[MYTraveler]

I just replaced my 3 Furuno NN3D Black Boxes with 2 PC's running TZT2 Professional. All of that is on its own network. Some of my Furuno (and other) peripherals are not networkable (like the scanning sonar and weatherfax). There is a third PC running the weatherFax and a bunch of other stuff. I didn't / don't see any benefit to having the Furuno stuff on the same network as the third PC running other stuff. I suppose it could be nice to put the chartplotter in one window and something else in another, but TZT2 Pro will not let you have a non-full size window. It is full-size or nothing. I run 4 screens in the PH and on the FB, typically with at least two displaying TZT (typically, chartplotter and either radar or fishfinder) and the other two displaying either a third TZT screen (fish finder/ radar) and the 4th screen shows FLIR, scanning sonar or the non-TZT PC running weatherfax or some other PC application. To make this all work, I have an HDMI matrix switch so any screen can show any source.

 

[stevemitchell]

I've set this up myself on three of my own boats, and on a number of other boats as well. Ultimately, the Furuno network needs to be separate from everything else. I've also had my own posts deleted on Furuno's website, specifically around networking and feature requests, and questions as to why they have such limited options and setups. Their networking leaves something to be desired, but as long as you don't mess with it, I have had far less issues with Furuno than any of the other manufacturers I've tested/used.

If you want the PC connected to the Furuno network to also be connected elsewhere, you will need to use VLANs or a second interface. In my most recent setup, I have a system with a physical ethernet interface and a WiFi interface - the ethernet interface is connected to the Furuno network with a static IP address and can access the MFDs, radar, and other devices. The WiFi interface is connected to my on board network, and allows the PC to access things like my Nemo Gateway, when running Coastal Explorer, SignalK, etc.

I have a secondary PC also running TZ that has two ethernet interfaces, both connected in similar ways to the above.

VLANs would work fine too, but they require a switch capable of VLANs, a configuration where various devices are on different VLANs, and a more advanced driver on the Windows machine - usually the standard drivers provided for Intel and Broadcom interfaces that come with Windows do not support VLANs.

This is one of the reasons I prefer two physical interfaces - I have done updates or made other changes, and have had the add-on VLAN drivers have issues. I'm not saying they don't work - my day job is working with servers that use those drivers all the time - but they are another thing that can go wrong, and I prefer to keep things as simple as possible.

 

[rslifkin]

As a note on the VLAN thing, you could always use VLANs to allow use of a single network switch, but still run 2 cables to each PC, with the switch ports for each assigned to different VLANs.

 

[Simi 60]

Consider Linux mint or similar flavours.

We run a Lenovo tiny with win10 (make sure you stop all updates) but we also have a laptop with Linux that has worked flawlessly for years.

Opencpn v5 running through both.
Cheap USB GPS pucks
Both connected to standard 23 inch monitors
Works far better than the Seiwa marine plotter that the boat has as it primary nav gear.

 

[wkearney99]

If you're going to use a PC (or Mac) to run your plotter it's important to avoid thinking of that device as being usable for anything else. Don't run any more on it than strictly necessary for the sole purpose of being a chartplotter. Don't try and be clever and run a browser on it, or your e-mail, or other stuff. PCs are cheap enough these days to get one specifically tailored to be the best it can be FOR THAT FUNCTION ALONE.

This way you avoid anything else putting the plotter functionality at risk. No background processes unexpected tying up resources, or a browser web page run amok gobbling up CPU/RAM (they're notorious for this, especially on feature-laden web pages). Set those things up on some other machine, leave the helm displays to the charts, let them just do that job. Because if/when you really need the plotter to be operating at peak performance the last thing you need is something else dragging it down.

 

[syjos]

If you're going to use a PC (or Mac) to run your plotter it's important to avoid thinking of that device as being usable for anything else. Don't run any more on it than strictly necessary for the sole purpose of being a chartplotter. Don't try and be clever and run a browser on it, or your e-mail, or other stuff. PCs are cheap enough these days to get one specifically tailored to be the best it can be FOR THAT FUNCTION ALONE.

This way you avoid anything else putting the plotter functionality at risk. No background processes unexpected tying up resources, or a browser web page run amok gobbling up CPU/RAM (they're notorious for this, especially on feature-laden web pages). Set those things up on some other machine, leave the helm displays to the charts, let them just do that job. Because if/when you really need the plotter to be operating at peak performance the last thing you need is something else dragging it down.

I agree 100%

 

[stevemitchell]

If you're going to use a PC (or Mac) to run your plotter it's important to avoid thinking of that device as being usable for anything else.

Completely agree. Mine has only navigation tools on it, and is not used to test new pieces of hardware/software, browse the web looking for things, or anything else other than running the boat.

I don't do automatic upgrades for any software, including Windows itself, and I set the network interfaces to "metered" both so it does not eat up my LTE data, but so it only downloads critical upgrades, and restricts other programs from doing the same.

I do try to keep it updated with as recent updates and patches as possible to prevent any issues with malware and the like, but I do those BEFORE a trip by a week, not during

It should be treated the same way you treat your autopilot or MFD - upgrade only when there is a bug or issue that you are worried about. The rest of the time, leave it alone and let it do its job.

I also will say that relying on one PC has been a bad idea for a long time. I've seen just about every piece of software out there navigation-wise crash at some point, usually silently. If it is sending out course/route data, eventually the autopilot should alert you (several don't!) and you can then figure out what happened. But if it can't be salvaged quickly, and you rely on it for driving routes, then having a second one is a good measure of redundancy.

The other challenge with two PCs is that most navigation software sucks when it comes to keeping the two in sync. That has improved both in CE and TZ in the last year or so, but there are still some minor gaps.

 

[Simi 60]

If you're going to use a PC (or Mac) to run your plotter it's important to avoid thinking of that device as being usable for anything else. Don't run any more on it than strictly necessary for the sole purpose of being a chartplotter. Don't try and be clever and run a browser on it, or your e-mail, or other stuff. PCs are cheap enough these days to get one specifically tailored to be the best it can be FOR THAT FUNCTION ALONE.

This way you avoid anything else putting the plotter functionality at risk. No background processes unexpected tying up resources, or a browser web page run amok gobbling up CPU/RAM (they're notorious for this, especially on feature-laden web pages). Set those things up on some other machine, leave the helm displays to the charts, let them just do that job. Because if/when you really need the plotter to be operating at peak performance the last thing you need is something else dragging it down.

Maybe true if running something with little grunt like a raspberry pi

But if you have plenty of grunt, nav programmes and additional pages use very little of it.
As a test I have done this on my nav pc running opencpn, this page and 6 other web pages open on random sites.

Less than 10% CPU usage
51% memory used
On a Lenovo think centre tiny.
Intel i7 2.2ghz
8.00 GB ram

 

[AdmiralS]

In regards to networking kit. I would highly recommend Ubiquiti UniFi. It will give you the flexibility you need and is centrally managed from the boat. It’s relatively cheap, and easy to use. My recommendation would be a Dream Machine Pro as it is a single device and you can add switches and access points as needed. Reach out directly if you want to chat more. Been following the blog and very excited for you guys!

 

[twistedtree]

I think with all this stuff, segregation is your friend. It’s like New England neighbors and their fences.

 

[MYTraveler]

Completely agree. Mine has only navigation tools on it, and is not used to test new pieces of hardware/software, browse the web looking for things, or anything else other than running the boat.

The other challenge with two PCs is that most navigation software sucks when it comes to keeping the two in sync. That has improved both in CE and TZ in the last year or so, but there are still some minor gaps.

My two PC's running TZT2 Pro don't run anything else. But it is important to provide those PC's internet access (by WiFi to the other networks router) in order to allow TZT2 Pro to download weather (GRIB) files (of course, that could be done manually, but that would be hugely inconvenient by comparison).

Also, FWIW, I have never noticed any sych problems (not even "minor" ones) between the two PC's running TZT2 Professional.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

I think with all this stuff, segregation is your friend. It’s like New England neighbors and their fences.

as they say in Glosta (Gloucester) "we are good High fence neighbors"...and if you don't like it, go back up the line!

 

[ChristineKling]

Hey Christine,

I posted about the set up, including my mis-steps and corrections in a thread, and updated it a few times as I learned things over the build out:
-- https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/electronics-upgrade-integration-update-43162.html

It didnt turn out to be that complicated in the end. Essentially, all of the data but radar was put onto a NMEA-200/ST-NG bus, which interconnected most things. Things that were NMEA-0183-Only, e.g. OpenCPN and some radios got bridged to the NMEA-2000 bus with converters.

Radar data got put onto a 12V Ethernet switch hard wired to the 2PCs and with wireless for the laptop. The NMEA-2000 was bridged to the Ethernet via a ShipModul MiniPlex3. Because modern Ethernet and WiFi are so fast as compared to NMEA-2000 and the Ethernet switch has plenty of buffering, the NMEA data didn't zap the radar data, or vice versa. The PCs use 12V touch screens, weather proof on the flybridge, and the PCs use point-of-use inverters to run from 12V. Ive never needed it, but since they are cheap for that wattage, I keep a 3rd inverter as a spare.

A lot of complexity I started with, e.g. USB to the MiniPlex3, turned out to be unneeded. And, some things I simplified, e.g. letting the VHF radios use their own GPS, disconnecting the USB GPS from the computers unless the sensor core fails, and making the class-A AIS transciever the only source of AIS data on the network so Ibdidnt proximity alarm on myself.

Thank you so much for referencing the thread about your network installation and all the updates you included. I learned so much from reading that. There are many similarities between our systems. We have the newer EmTrak 200, but I'm sure it will be the same with the power always on issue as it must be required for commercial vessels. We went ahead and bought the Nemo anticipating that we would have some devices that are still 0183, but so far we've not encountered any on this new build. It will be a few months before we are able to start installing this gear, and I'm sure I will be referencing your posts over and over when that time comes.

Christine

 

[STB]

Hey Christine,

I can't wait to read about your adventure when you post about it!

If have any questions about anything I did or didnt do, feel free to hit me up via a post or DM.

Have fun!
-Greg

 

[ChristineKling]

As mentioned by Syjos, The Furuno forum and support site would be a great place to post your issues. https://www.furunousa.com/en/get_support

A call to Furuno would be helpful too. Remind me why you are using Windows rather than OSX based gear? Personally I'd go with a Furuno black box system, we had one on on our Hatteras and loved the flexibility. It played well outputting data to the MacENC equipped MacBook and iMac on board. Rock solid reliability and great factory support. It was all glued together with off the shelf 2007-era ethernet and video switches and back then, serial port to USB adapters. The technology available now is so much better and more flexible than then.

Thanks for the suggestions, Caltexflanc. I've read widely on the Furuno forums and they have now taken the stance that it's not their purview to support PC/TZ integration on that forum. They direct everybody to TZ's site. And, of course, there is no forum there. There is however a Facebook group, and I've found good answers there.

We are using Windows because we decided to use TimeZero software for navigation and for its integration with Furuno gear. There is no MacOS version of TimeZero. When chatting with reps from Furuno, they admitted that their TZT2BB Black box unit is basically two Windows computers running TimeZero, and the cost is MSRP: $5,895.00. We are getting our two computers for around $2,000 for both. However, you do need to factor in several things. That BB includes the software which runs around $1200 for TZ pro. It also includes the sounder module which we have to purchase extra. But considering our cost at around $3700, and we can upgrade our computers as tech changes in the next 3-5 years. Add in the fact that we can do our Maretron monitoring from both our computers as well, we decided to go with PCs instead of the Furuno Black Box.


Christine
http://mobius.world

 

[ChristineKling]

I just replaced my 3 Furuno NN3D Black Boxes with 2 PC's running TZT2 Professional. All of that is on its own network. Some of my Furuno (and other) peripherals are not networkable (like the scanning sonar and weatherfax). There is a third PC running the weatherFax and a bunch of other stuff. I didn't / don't see any benefit to having the Furuno stuff on the same network as the third PC running other stuff. I suppose it could be nice to put the chartplotter in one window and something else in another, but TZT2 Pro will not let you have a non-full size window. It is full-size or nothing. I run 4 screens in the PH and on the FB, typically with at least two displaying TZT (typically, chartplotter and either radar or fishfinder) and the other two displaying either a third TZT screen (fish finder/ radar) and the 4th screen shows FLIR, scanning sonar or the non-TZT PC running weatherfax or some other PC application. To make this all work, I have an HDMI matrix switch so any screen can show any source.

Thanks for that suggestion about using an HDMI switch for switching sources. We may end up needing to do that down in the main helm area where we also have 4 screens, one of which is a TV that we are looking to serve double duty as navigation/monitoring and entertainment. We are also looking at getting a new Cerbo GX to monitor the Victron stuff and it has an HDMI output. Great tip.

What about other cameras in addition to your Flir? And your Maretron system? Is all that on that third computer to keep the nav computers single purpose?

Christine
http://mobius.world