Lifepo4 cost comparison, real life example

[Simi 60]

Our 840ah @ 24v lifepo4 battery bank has been up and running for several weeks now providing 240v power to run anything and everything we have including welders.

To say I am impressed is an understatement.

Some claim Lifepo4 is expensive but here are our examples

840ah @ 24v of usable power from AGM would require 3360ah @ 12v
That would be 16 X 220ah 12v batts at 65kg each = 1040kg of batts
And, half decent AGM batteries here in Oz would be around $9600 AUD ($6750 USD) + freight on a tonne
Decent batteries like full river would be closer to $17000 AUD ($11960 USD) + freight on a tonne.

In comparison,
Matched and batched EVE 280ah 3.5v cells X 24 (8 makes a 24v @ 280ah batt)
A 200amp JBD BMS and a 200 amp MRBF for each
Makes for a single, totally independent battery and, the boat will run on one - for the first few days we did just that as proof of concept

Each 24v block weighs in at around 47kg including compression frame, busbars, BMS etc
Total weight of 840ah battery bank less than 150kg vs 1040 kg for AGM.

Cost for all this?
$3650 USD and that included delivery to the door.

TLDR:
840ah usable Lifepo4 (some assembly required) 150kg weight $3650 delivered to door
840ah usable AGM (some assembly required) 1040kg weight $17,000 PLUS delivery

 

[catalinajack]

Our 840ah @ 24v lifepo4 battery bank has been up and running for several weeks now providing 240v power to run anything and everything we have including welders.

To say I am impressed is an understatement.

Some claim Lifepo4 is expensive but here are our examples

840ah @ 24v of usable power from AGM would require 3360ah @ 12v
That would be 16 X 220ah 12v batts at 65kg each = 1040kg of batts
And, half decent AGM batteries here in Oz would be around $9600 AUD ($6750 USD) + freight on a tonne
Decent batteries like full river would be closer to $17000 AUD ($11960 USD) + freight on a tonne.

In comparison,
Matched and batched EVE 280ah 3.5v cells X 24 (8 makes a 24v @ 280ah batt)
A 200amp JBD BMS and a 200 amp MRBF for each
Makes for a single, totally independent battery and, the boat will run on one - for the first few days we did just that as proof of concept

Each 24v block weighs in at around 47kg including compression frame, busbars, BMS etc
Total weight of 840ah battery bank less than 150kg vs 1040 kg for AGM.

Cost for all this?
$3650 USD and that included delivery to the door.

TLDR:
840ah usable Lifepo4 (some assembly required) 150kg weight $3650 delivered to door
840ah usable AGM (some assembly required) 1040kg weight $17,000 PLUS delivery

Simi 60, your comparison is ridiculous because of where you live and the prices there. In North America the numbers are upside down. 840 of usable amp-hours in a Trojan AGM would cost about $5,300 in the States. And weight savings? Who cares? Is 900 kg on a big trawler significant? Nope. Real life example? Yes, but irrelevant for most other folks.

 

[Iggy]

Something is out of place!

I am looking at high end Li batteries. Why high end just to be clear? Needs to meet ABYC standards and can go down to -4F storage. At 600AH @12v, cost is $4,500. For AGMs, cost is around $2,200

Now I could be the cheap Li batteries, with no Bluetooth and can not take the cold storage for the winter. Less of a warranty and don't meet ABYC standards for a little more than 1/2 the price.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Simi 60, your comparison is ridiculous because of where you live and the prices there. In North America the numbers are upside down. 840 of usable amp-hours in a Trojan AGM would cost about $5,300 in the States. And weight savings? Who cares? Is 900 kg on a big trawler significant? Nope. Real life example? Yes, but irrelevant for most other folks.

Why is it ridiculous? Is he the only Australian on this forum? No he is not.

 

[twistedtree]

Simi 60, your comparison is ridiculous because of where you live and the prices there. In North America the numbers are upside down. 840 of usable amp-hours in a Trojan AGM would cost about $5,300 in the States. And weight savings? Who cares? Is 900 kg on a big trawler significant? Nope. Real life example? Yes, but irrelevant for most other folks.

I'm not sure how you came up with those numbers. Here's what I get.


840Ah usable requires 2x or 1680Ah name plate capacity in AGMs. Using a Trojan 205Ah 12V AGM as an example, 8 are required for 1640Ah. But that's at 12V, so double to 16 batteries to get 1640Ah @ 24V. I see those batteries for $634, so $10,000. Or Trojan L16 AGMs which at 375Ah @ 6V. That would take 16 to get 1500Ah @24V, and they cost $570 each so $9100.


And the cells that Simi is using can be purchased in the US for between $2000 and $4000 depending on how well known you want the supplier to be. The $4000 price is for Amazon.

 

[twistedtree]

BTW, these cell prices are 40% of what I paid 3 years ago, and that's for premium cells in both cases. The EVE cells are top quality and used by a number of the high end system vendors.


The only reason LFP remains expensive is because packaged system vendors are maintaining high end-user pricing and taking the coast savings as profit. The cells themselves have come down in price by quite a bit.

 

[Simi 60]

Simi 60, your comparison is ridiculous because of where you live and the prices there. In North America the numbers are upside down. 840 of usable amp-hours in a Trojan AGM would cost about $5,300 in the States..

As has been pointed out your maths and understanding on "usable" is out

And weight savings? Who cares? Is 900 kg on a big trawler significant? Nope. Real life example? Yes, but irrelevant for most other folks

The weight is neither here nor there
The cost to ship it and to get muscle to lug it onboard and position it
And the extra structure required to house it all is something else again.

 

[Simi 60]

And the cells that Simi is using can be purchased in the US for between $2000 and $4000 depending on how well known you want the supplier to be. The $4000 price is for Amazon.

I got my info from this forum and this supplier in China was very vell regarded.
Cut out a few middlemen as well I would guess.

Painless and we'll documented purchase via Alibaba
Even got the name of the ship they were loaded on for tracking.

Every cell had documentation and, on arriveal all the numbers matched up


https://diysolarforum.com/threads/introducing-the-new-improved-shenzhen-luyuan-technology-co.15880/

 

[rslifkin]

Using the AGMs I've got installed (415ah 6v Full river) I'd need 16 for 1660 ah at 24v. That's $9600, so in line with what others are finding.

At that size, lithium can probably be put together cheaper, but depending on what you've already got may require some changes to charging infrastructure. I'll probably investigate it as an option in a few years to see if it makes sense vs staying with lead. In my case, it's mostly the reduced weight that's appealing with lithium.

 

[DegoRed]

Simi, that forum is a God send, some seriously sharp people post there, and those cats take testing and balancing to a whole new level. If you used their recommendations on suppliers your in good hands.

 

[Simi 60]

Simi, that forum is a God send, some seriously sharp people post there, and those cats take testing and balancing to a whole new level. If you used their recommendations on suppliers your in good hands.

Yep, glad I stumbled across it, made it all pretty painless following in others footsteps.


Tonight having our first experience with a $50 induction cooktop.
Instant and insane heat if wanted, far better than our gas cooktop.
Wok on.

 

[sunchaser]

Simi
It certainly seems you've developed a nice and workable setup for your particular application. Two questions:
-- What is your charging system and controls to keep the LFPs at peak performance?
-- Any thoughts as to disposal when replacement time arrives? This issue is raising its head in parts of the US.

 

[FF]

"Instant and insane heat if wanted, far better than our gas cooktop."

For a wok a home gas stove will always do poorly , they are 6,000 to maybe 15,000BTU.

A propane wok burner is about 50,000 BTU .to 200,000BTU

Thats a lot of amps worth on any battery.

https://www.wokall.com/best-propane-wok-burner/

 

[rslifkin]

"Instant and insane heat if wanted, far better than our gas cooktop."

For a wok a home gas stove will always do poorly , they are 6,000 to maybe 15,000BTU.

A propane wok burner is about 50,000 BTU .to 200,000BTU

Thats a lot of amps worth on any battery.

https://www.wokall.com/best-propane-wok-burner/

Agreed, it's a lot of power. But with a gas stove, a decent amount of heat goes into the room instead of the pan on the stove. Induction is far more efficient at putting heat into the pan, so the total heat required is lower (but a true wok burner would still be a lot of power).

 

[Greatlaker221]

Something is out of place!

I am looking at high end Li batteries. Why high end just to be clear? Needs to meet ABYC standards and can go down to -4F storage. At 600AH @12v, cost is $4,500. For AGMs, cost is around $2,200

Now I could be the cheap Li batteries, with no Bluetooth and can not take the cold storage for the winter. Less of a warranty and don't meet ABYC standards for a little more than 1/2 the price.

IMO it’s not cold storage LifePo4 batteries can’t tolerate, it’s charging in below freezing temps. Some do not come with low temp sensor to stop charging in low temps. Both My Victron inverter and B2B charger have temp sensors and you can configure charging temps. I bought 2 Chinns 200ah batteries for $1800 and they work great.

 

[AlanT]

Our 840ah @ 24v lifepo4 battery bank has been up and running for several weeks now providing 240v power to run anything and everything we have including welders.

To say I am impressed is an understatement.

Some claim Lifepo4 is expensive but here are our examples

840ah @ 24v of usable power from AGM would require 3360ah @ 12v
That would be 16 X 220ah 12v batts at 65kg each = 1040kg of batts
And, half decent AGM batteries here in Oz would be around $9600 AUD ($6750 USD) + freight on a tonne
Decent batteries like full river would be closer to $17000 AUD ($11960 USD) + freight on a tonne.

In comparison,
Matched and batched EVE 280ah 3.5v cells X 24 (8 makes a 24v @ 280ah batt)
A 200amp JBD BMS and a 200 amp MRBF for each
Makes for a single, totally independent battery and, the boat will run on one - for the first few days we did just that as proof of concept

Each 24v block weighs in at around 47kg including compression frame, busbars, BMS etc
Total weight of 840ah battery bank less than 150kg vs 1040 kg for AGM.

Cost for all this?
$3650 USD and that included delivery to the door.

TLDR:
840ah usable Lifepo4 (some assembly required) 150kg weight $3650 delivered to door
840ah usable AGM (some assembly required) 1040kg weight $17,000 PLUS delivery

Many thanks for this info. Would you be willing to share a spec sheet for your order? I would like to save for when I need to replacy my fairly new Wet Lead banks. ~A

 

[rslifkin]

Good point on the cold charging problem. I've always had in the back of my mind that I'd have a problem with that when working on the boat in the winter. I'd either have to isolate the house bank and run power from one of the start batteries (and that charger), or I'd have to avoid running any DC loads, as charging to the house bank would be cut off once we're in the cold part of winter and the batteries get below freezing. With the current AGM bank, it's no problem to have them floating in below freezing weather while I'm working on the boat.

 

[Simi 60]

Simi
It certainly seems you've developed a nice and workable setup for your particular application. Two questions:
-- What is your charging system and controls to keep the LFPs at peak performance?

2.5kw of solar (9 x250w panels) installed when we first took possession of the boat 5+ years ago. Space for possibly 8 more.
7kva Genset, hopefully not to be used anymore.
Victron 5000/120 so charging at 100+ amps and cut off set to 27.2v
Midnite classic 150 MPPT set pretty much the same




--

Any thoughts as to disposal when replacement time arrives? This issue is raising its head in parts of the US.

With a touted 6000 cycle life possible ÷ 365 =16 years it may not be my problem.
We have been on the hard in a shed with no solar now for 3 weeks and stress testing the system using shore power to charge then disconnecting for 3 or 4 X 12 hour days
The app shows us having done 5 cycles

Out there with solar smashing in most days this'll likely never happen in real life so life could well be extended more

 

[Simi 60]

Many thanks for this info. Would you be willing to share a spec sheet for your order? I would like to save for when I need to replacy my fairly new Wet Lead banks. ~A

No spec sheet as such

Each 24v block was comprised of
8 X EVE 280k cells bought from the above mentioned supplier (all busbars and nuts included)
1 X 200 amp BMS (JBD-AP20S003S-P20S-200A-B-U )
1 X 200 amp MRBF


Plywood, spacers, Booker rod, nuts, washers to make compression frame
The right ring terminal ends for BMS wireing.
Noalox or ox gard for terminal protection.

 

[Barking Sands]

Awesome set up. And cost is only partial consideration. Just the nature of the way these new batteries linearly charge and discharge...and the level of discharge they can take while having consistent output makes keeping everything in your head very straightforward. I think you will actually just end up taking your new battery pack for granted for years on end. I was always battery conscious before. I haven't thought about my lifepo4 batteries much in nearly a year.

Sooo worth it. Granted...timing for a new purchaser is important. But I just dont get the naysayers.

 

[Simi 60]

Agreed, it's a lot of power. But with a gas stove, a decent amount of heat goes into the room instead of the pan on the stove. Induction is far more efficient at putting heat into the pan, so the total heat required is lower (but a true wok burner would still be a lot of power).

Yep, galley area was definately cooler and cook time was less
Sure, it pulls some amps but negligiable in the scheme of things now (could never contemplate it with the AGM setup we had)

Also, food now tastes so much better
High heat has the meat and noodles "catch" so now our char keow teow tastes pretty close to what we'd get from the "sisters" @ McCallister Rd Penang

Add:
Temp on this goes up to a near instant 240c
Wok last night we never went higher than 140c

https://www.kmart.com.au/product/induction-cooker---black/2402315

 

[BruceK]

Cooking a great char kway teow makes it a winner! Our favourite dish at the local Malaysian resto.

 

[Tator]

Thanks for the all the info. Is your $50 induction cooktop a muti-burner unit or is it what some call a hob?

Tator

 

[Simi 60]

Thanks for the all the info. Is your $50 induction cooktop a muti-burner unit or is it what some call a hob?

Tator

Single as in the link provided

 

[Simi 60]

Extra level of stress test insanity

All the usual 240 v appliances running but now we are cooking with the induction cooktop AND the 240v HWS is running pulling around 170 amps @ 24v

No noticible temp difference on any cables
No voltage sag, sitting solidly at 26.5v

I reckon we could run A/C if so inclined, would like it for the ER.

 

[socalrider]

Extra level of stress test insanity

All the usual 240 v appliances running but now we are cooking with the induction cooktop AND the 240v HWS is running pulling around 170 amps @ 24v

No noticible temp difference on any cables
No voltage sag, sitting solidly at 26.5v

I reckon we could run A/C if so inclined, would like it for the ER.

Simi, thanks for posting this. Very exciting. I love the idea of getting rid of propane entirely; with a battery bank & solar like yours I can see it. AC electric water heating off battery as well. Very & food for thought for whenever my next electrical upgrade happens.

 

[Kit_L]

Simi, sincere thanks for posting this, and I have signed up to that forum, too. I have a project planned for our new boat, based around 2 x 440W Canadian panels, and those batteries you linked to sound perfect for this. We think 450–500ah will be more than sufficient; will start a thread on this when we begin. Thanks again!

 

[Awsmits]

Simi, nice work! I followed the guys on DIYSolar forum as well, and am putting 16 EVE cells in my SeaRay, two 24V banks in parallel. Not as many Ahr as yours, but hope to meet my 120V needs for an overnight or two on the hook.

How do you charge your cells? I’m hoping to have solar, shore power and alternator charging, just for redundancy and boosting the charging amps.

 

[rslifkin]

For a perspective on power use for those planning a new battery/solar setup based on this, we've got 415ah at 12 volts and 820w of solar. That's plenty to get us through an overnight and still have 65 - 75% after making coffee in the morning.

We're powering the fridge, ice maker, lights, fans, inverter idle draw, internet hardware, etc. However, we're not running the stove from the inverter, just stuff like the toaster, coffee maker, etc. I figure our daily draw at 3 - 3.5 kwh, plus what we use from the generator for cooking dinner and making hot water. In cool weather early or late in the season, our draw is a bit less, as the fridge and ice maker don't work as hard and we're less likely to use power for fans (which matches up to reduced solar output in those seasons).

If we get a really dark, rainy day with very poor solar output and we're not moving, we do have to make up some power with the generator, as we don't have enough battery to comfortably get through the day and second night in that situation (or enough extra solar beyond our daily power draw to catch up fully in less than 3 days or so).

If we wanted to go 100% battery/inverter for cooking, I'd want to double the battery bank (maybe +50% at minimum with LiFePO4) and I'd want about twice as much solar.

 

[Awsmits]

Rslifkin, thanks for that perspective. I’ll have 580Ahr at 24V, with 1200 W of solar. I can’t depend on a generator, as my diesel gen died with a rod through the block. So my LiFePO4 battery bank IS my new generator. I’ve only spent about $4000 total on the whole system, which includes, batteries, solar panels, AC charger, solar controller and 3000W inverter.