LiFePO batteries with external BMS

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What do you expect the LFP batteries to shut off for temp? Will they be in the engine room exposed to engine heat?

No i do not think my batteries will shut off for Temp/heat they will not be in the engine room they will be in a tool/workroom before the engine room. If something went wrong and battery bms shut the battery off then there would be no load on the generator and voltage would shoot up and damage the alternator rectifyer on Daves setup from what I understand.

Bud
 
I think you may find that the active venting is not required, provided you keep engine room heat away from them. The batteries themselves won't warm up in any appreciable way.

I am not sure that it will be needed but the fan cost less than $20. And it only draws 50 mAmps so I plan to turn it on when we launch in the spring and turn it off in the fall when we haul out. If it isn’t needed, oh well...
 
No i do not think my batteries will shut off for Temp/heat they will not be in the engine room they will be in a tool/workroom before the engine room. If something went wrong and battery bms shut the battery off then there would be no load on the generator and voltage would shoot up and damage the alternator rectifyer on Daves setup from what I understand.

Bud

They will shutoff when they get fully charged. Not sure if that would damage the alternator or not since the charge current would be pretty low at that point but for $70 it isn’t worth taking a chance.
 
They will shutoff when they get fully charged. Not sure if that would damage the alternator or not since the charge current would be pretty low at that point but for $70 it isn’t worth taking a chance.

My understanding is: The charging profile should switch to float charge at a specific voltage so not to activate the batteries bms shutoff. If something went wrong with your regulator or alternator or your load shorts then the Bms will disconnect the battery from your alternator/load to protect the battery from meltdown. The sterling alternative load you purchased will keep a load on the alternator so it doesn't run away and damage itself. Am I missing something?

Bud
 
My understanding is: The charging profile should switch to float charge at a specific voltage so not to activate the batteries bms shutoff. If something went wrong with your regulator or alternator or your load shorts then the Bms will disconnect the battery from your alternator/load to protect the battery from meltdown. The sterling alternative load you purchased will keep a load on the alternator so it doesn't run away and damage itself. Am I missing something?

Bud

I guess that is the theory, but I don’t want to risk an expensive alternator in lieu of a $70 part. This is a pretty steep learning curve but having the ability to charge so fast and discharge so deep will be worth it in the long run.
 
I guess that is the theory, but I don’t want to risk an expensive alternator in lieu of a $70 part. This is a pretty steep learning curve but having the ability to charge so fast and discharge so deep will be worth it in the long run.

I am with you on that. Thats why I am starting small and simple.

Bud
 
It is pretty awesome that so small and light a battery can replace such big and heavy batteries. Not cheap but in my case it was actually cheaper than growing my 6 volt battery bank from 4 to 6 batteries. Even adding an alternator system and SOC monitor cost me less than going to 6 6 volt batteries since I would have had to replace the aft A/C unit.
 
It is pretty awesome that so small and light a battery can replace such big and heavy batteries. Not cheap but in my case it was actually cheaper than growing my 6 volt battery bank from 4 to 6 batteries. Even adding an alternator system and SOC monitor cost me less than going to 6 6 volt batteries since I would have had to replace the aft A/C unit.

I know I am amazed at the amount of cycles 3000 plus. It will really help me use my solar system for effectively.
 
The Lion Energy batteries have a lifetime warranty.
 
If your system is set up correctly, the BMS will NEVER disconnect. A BMS disconnect is a measure of last resort, in a system where something has gone wrong. It's to protect the expensive battery from you. Your chargers should all be programmed so they never charge the battery to the point where them BMS will disconnect, and it's up to you to never let it drain down to the point where the BMS disconnects.
 
Another option for an alternator controller is the Wakespeed WS500. It's a newer regulator designed by an engineer that designed some oft he Balmar products. It measures current and voltage from the alternator to provide the ability to use more complex charge profiles. The Balmar units don't know what the charge current is.

I don't have experience with the Wakespeed, but I do know that the abilities afforded by monitoring battery current allow for complete control over the charge profile, where voltage monitoring alone is not sufficient for Lithium based batteries and you will always be working at a disadvantage with the regulator not factoring current into the charge equation. The Wakespeed can also communicate with some BMS systems so tat it can throttle based on responses from the BMS as well, and know about shutdowns of the BMS if they happen.

A lithium charge profile should be current limited (.5C or 1C or whatever the spec is) up to a specific voltage, then fixed voltage until the current trails off to a specific amount and then the charge is terminated. That is very difficult to do with a standard external regulator because it does not know the current going into the batteries.
 
Another option for an alternator controller is the Wakespeed WS500. It's a newer regulator designed by an engineer that designed some oft he Balmar products. It measures current and voltage from the alternator to provide the ability to use more complex charge profiles. The Balmar units don't know what the charge current is.

I don't have experience with the Wakespeed, but I do know that the abilities afforded by monitoring battery current allow for complete control over the charge profile, where voltage monitoring alone is not sufficient for Lithium based batteries and you will always be working at a disadvantage with the regulator not factoring current into the charge equation. The Wakespeed can also communicate with some BMS systems so tat it can throttle based on responses from the BMS as well, and know about shutdowns of the BMS if they happen.

A lithium charge profile should be current limited (.5C or 1C or whatever the spec is) up to a specific voltage, then fixed voltage until the current trails off to a specific amount and then the charge is terminated. That is very difficult to do with a standard external regulator because it does not know the current going into the batteries.


I agree about Wakespeed, at least I think I do. I'm using one in my build, but don't have any hands on with it yet.


Regarding charging LFP, now almost 2 years into a system that provides daily power, I've come to believe there is a whole less to worry about when charging them in a typical house battery setup. The charging guidelines are largely motivated by vehicle applications and are for running batteries up to max possible charge, then drawing them down to the lowest possible level. Also recharging as fast as possible. Under these conditions, there are lots of things you need to watch carefully; current, temperature, cell balance, etc. But in a typical house battery design, you will likely never operate anywhere near any of those limits.



You are right about keeping the charge current down, but that's all relative. I would venture that few boat have the charger capacity to even reach .5C, and are more likely in the .25C range. So charging too fast is inherently not possible, so no need to supervise it. Now if a boat has very large chargers and very small batteries, it might be different, but the basic system design will tell you whether you need to worry about this.


Same with end-of-charge conditions. If you don't need every drop of capacity out of your batteries, just don't charge them up to the edge of death. Stop at a modest voltage, and call it a day. You will be plenty close enough. Rod Collins at MarineHowTo did some good tests showing how little actually capacity is forfeited by stopping your charge cycle before the bitter end. I recently "balanced" two cells in my pack (I manually balance) for the first time ever because they were not reaching the same end voltage as the other batteries, and the ones that were getting ahead were starting to get close to the BMS shutdown point. Guess how much energy it took to catch those cells up? 3Ah, on a 360Ah bank. That's less than 1%, and the difference between a cell being "lightly" charged, and charged to the very top.
 
I agree about Wakespeed, at least I think I do. I'm using one in my build, but don't have any hands on with it yet.


Regarding charging LFP, now almost 2 years into a system that provides daily power, I've come to believe there is a whole less to worry about when charging them in a typical house battery setup. The charging guidelines are largely motivated by vehicle applications and are for running batteries up to max possible charge, then drawing them down to the lowest possible level. Also recharging as fast as possible. Under these conditions, there are lots of things you need to watch carefully; current, temperature, cell balance, etc. But in a typical house battery design, you will likely never operate anywhere near any of those limits.



You are right about keeping the charge current down, but that's all relative. I would venture that few boat have the charger capacity to even reach .5C, and are more likely in the .25C range. So charging too fast is inherently not possible, so no need to supervise it. Now if a boat has very large chargers and very small batteries, it might be different, but the basic system design will tell you whether you need to worry about this.


Same with end-of-charge conditions. If you don't need every drop of capacity out of your batteries, just don't charge them up to the edge of death. Stop at a modest voltage, and call it a day. You will be plenty close enough. Rod Collins at MarineHowTo did some good tests showing how little actually capacity is forfeited by stopping your charge cycle before the bitter end. I recently "balanced" two cells in my pack (I manually balance) for the first time ever because they were not reaching the same end voltage as the other batteries, and the ones that were getting ahead were starting to get close to the BMS shutdown point. Guess how much energy it took to catch those cells up? 3Ah, on a 360Ah bank. That's less than 1%, and the difference between a cell being "lightly" charged, and charged to the very top.

I agree with you completely. Stopping at 80-95% charge should extend their life as well. However if you build a system with multiple high performance charge sources and a goal of stuffing as much power in as quickly as possible while a noisemaker is running, keeping a handle on it may become more important, especially BMS integration in high performance systems. Not the case with a single 100A alternator.

I built a system with dual large frame alternators, multi groove belts and Balmar regulators on FL120s to charge 800 AH of carbon foam lead acid. We are able to hit 0.5 C with that system and those batteries absorb it quite well. An equivalent Lithium system could be smaller, 500AH for the same usable capacity and it would be potentially hitting .75C or so. Depending on the batteries, that might be close to their max recommended charge current, although I suppose most these days are at least 2C.

The goal was to be able to charge the house bank as quickly as possible with the engines to minimize run time on a no generator boat. It's kind of fun to watch the battery monitor show 400+ amps continuous charge.

The next system I put together should be a lithium system with prismatic LiFePO4 cells, external BMS and Wakespeeds. The Balmar stuff is nice, but I had a lot of issues getting it to work properly and reliably and charging at high rates like that I'd like the current monitoring ability and potential for BMS integration on Lithiums. Hopefully the extra complexity of the system is worth it.
 
I agree with you completely. Stopping at 80-95% charge should extend their life as well. However if you build a system with multiple high performance charge sources and a goal of stuffing as much power in as quickly as possible while a noisemaker is running, keeping a handle on it may become more important, especially BMS integration in high performance systems. Not the case with a single 100A alternator.

I built a system with dual large frame alternators, multi groove belts and Balmar regulators on FL120s to charge 800 AH of carbon foam lead acid. We are able to hit 0.5 C with that system and those batteries absorb it quite well. An equivalent Lithium system could be smaller, 500AH for the same usable capacity and it would be potentially hitting .75C or so. Depending on the batteries, that might be close to their max recommended charge current, although I suppose most these days are at least 2C.

The goal was to be able to charge the house bank as quickly as possible with the engines to minimize run time on a no generator boat. It's kind of fun to watch the battery monitor show 400+ amps continuous charge.

The next system I put together should be a lithium system with prismatic LiFePO4 cells, external BMS and Wakespeeds. The Balmar stuff is nice, but I had a lot of issues getting it to work properly and reliably and charging at high rates like that I'd like the current monitoring ability and potential for BMS integration on Lithiums. Hopefully the extra complexity of the system is worth it.


It all comes down to the balance between battery bank capacity and charge capacity. I think 400A of charging with an 800Ah battery bank is quite unusual, and does indeed warrant paying attention when charging. Typically the bank would be larger, and/or the charge capacity lower.
 
It all comes down to the balance between battery bank capacity and charge capacity. I think 400A of charging with an 800Ah battery bank is quite unusual, and does indeed warrant paying attention when charging. Typically the bank would be larger, and/or the charge capacity lower.

It is a bit unusual, but it's a nice model which I think works better with Lithiums. Charge quickly to 80-90%, avoid the trailing/falling current to fill it up completely and end the charge. It's good for the lithium batteries to not be stuffed full, and it can put a reasonable load on the charging source. But as you said, getting near that charge rate for larger banks would be fairly difficult and normally there just isn't a concern about excessive charge current.
 
I agree about Wakespeed, at least I think I do. I'm using one in my build, but don't have any hands on with it yet.


Regarding charging LFP, now almost 2 years into a system that provides daily power, I've come to believe there is a whole less to worry about when charging them in a typical house battery setup. The charging guidelines are largely motivated by vehicle applications and are for running batteries up to max possible charge, then drawing them down to the lowest possible level. Also recharging as fast as possible. Under these conditions, there are lots of things you need to watch carefully; current, temperature, cell balance, etc. But in a typical house battery design, you will likely never operate anywhere near any of those limits.



You are right about keeping the charge current down, but that's all relative. I would venture that few boat have the charger capacity to even reach .5C, and are more likely in the .25C range. So charging too fast is inherently not possible, so no need to supervise it. Now if a boat has very large chargers and very small batteries, it might be different, but the basic system design will tell you whether you need to worry about this.


Same with end-of-charge conditions. If you don't need every drop of capacity out of your batteries, just don't charge them up to the edge of death. Stop at a modest voltage, and call it a day. You will be plenty close enough. Rod Collins at MarineHowTo did some good tests showing how little actually capacity is forfeited by stopping your charge cycle before the bitter end. I recently "balanced" two cells in my pack (I manually balance) for the first time ever because they were not reaching the same end voltage as the other batteries, and the ones that were getting ahead were starting to get close to the BMS shutdown point. Guess how much energy it took to catch those cells up? 3Ah, on a 360Ah bank. That's less than 1%, and the difference between a cell being "lightly" charged, and charged to the very top.


I was amazed reading about the different charging profiles these charging systems are capable of, like you say mostly for vehicles. There is a profile that allows the battery to come down so it can have room to receive charging geneated by "braking" in the vehicle.

Bud
 
I am going to put heat shrink on the copper bars between the terminals for insulation against a dropped tool.

Always make sure to remove ANY jewelry from your hands/forearms when you're near batteries. I've seen too many horror story pics of injuries from battery accidents due to stray tools, rings or watches.
 
Always make sure to remove ANY jewelry from your hands/forearms when you're near batteries. I've seen too many horror story pics of injuries from battery accidents due to stray tools, rings or watches.

I have not worn my wedding ring for about 36 years since one of the engineers in our office got his across a 300 volt DC bus bar. Not much left of his ring finger. We had a SAR case where a guy was jumping into the water off his boat and hooked his wedding ring on the cleat back on the euro swim platform. His finger along with a ball of tendon stayed on the cleat. Decided not to wear it again. The CG would make everyone take off all jewelry for the same reason.
 
It's a Battery Management System- in essence, a brain for regulating the charging and discharging of lithium batteries.

One that becomes more important as the lithium-based batteries have a greater potential for being damaged when charged (or drained) improperly, including a greater risk of a more difficult to extinguish fire. Thus most setups seek to keep the management as close to the individual cells as possible. You don't want to have one cell go off and ignite the rest.
 
One that becomes more important as the lithium-based batteries have a greater potential for being damaged when charged (or drained) improperly, including a greater risk of a more difficult to extinguish fire. Thus most setups seek to keep the management as close to the individual cells as possible. You don't want to have one cell go off and ignite the rest.

LifeP04 batteries don’t have the same chemistry or ignition characteristics as the older lithium banks (the ones prone to ignition). The BMS makes them more human proof...
 
LifeP04 batteries don’t have the same chemistry or ignition characteristics as the older lithium banks (the ones prone to ignition). The BMS makes them more human proof...


Agreed. With LFP, which is the only type of battery that I'd want on a boat in any quantity, is about as inert as any battery can get. I think they are no more of a fire risk than the various forms of lead acid, and a far smaller risk of hazardous materials. Lead and sulfuric acid are two of the nastiest substances around.


With an LFP system, I would argue that the BMS is much more an economic protection device, and only slightly a safety device.


By the way, ABYC recently released TE-13 on lithium Ion batteries. It's a technical report which is how all their standards start out. Over time it will evolve to be a standard. It's not perfect, but a really good start, and much better than having nothing. I'm on the project technical committee that created it, though I came in pretty late in the process.
 
Agreed. With LFP, which is the only type of battery that I'd want on a boat in any quantity, is about as inert as any battery can get. I think they are no more of a fire risk than the various forms of lead acid, and a far smaller risk of hazardous materials. Lead and sulfuric acid are two of the nastiest substances around.


With an LFP system, I would argue that the BMS is much more an economic protection device, and only slightly a safety device.


By the way, ABYC recently released TE-13 on lithium Ion batteries. It's a technical report which is how all their standards start out. Over time it will evolve to be a standard. It's not perfect, but a really good start, and much better than having nothing. I'm on the project technical committee that created it, though I came in pretty late in the process.

Exactly the reason that we're going with LFP- lots of upside compared to FLA or AGM.
 
Finished my install of Battle born batteries. This is how I wired it for now. Could be subject to future improvements especially adding a third battery.


lithium.jpg
 
The engine alternators are 60 amps each and I think the generator alternator is 40 amps. The dc to dc charger by sterling power is 60 amps and the two solar panels are 20 amps.


Bud
 
We went with all Victron system and have been very pleased. Included 4 - 200 amp hr lithium batteries, 2 - 3000 watt inverters, giving us 120V and 240V from the batteries, 2 - 120amp chargers, 600 watts of solar, and a transformer that keeps the loads balanced between L1 and L2, and lots of other additions. It allows us to draw about 20 amps continuously at anchor for about 32 hours before we need the generator, and the ability to run heat (240v and 120v Cruise Airs) or A/C while underway without the generator running. Since we do some blue water cruising, this was important to us. In the end, we have been very happy with the Victron products. Regardless of what product you go with, you will not regret the switch to Lithium Batteries.

Good luck on your project.

Jim
M/V Sea Venture
www.youtube.com/CruisingSeaVenture
 
We were pulling my port engine the other day, so I asked the mechanic to hand me one of the Lithium batteries. He almost fell over when he picked it up since it is so light. He was amazed. They weigh 23 pounds.
 
We went with all Victron system and have been very pleased. Included 4 - 200 amp hr lithium batteries, 2 - 3000 watt inverters, giving us 120V and 240V from the batteries, 2 - 120amp chargers, 600 watts of solar, and a transformer that keeps the loads balanced between L1 and L2, and lots of other additions. It allows us to draw about 20 amps continuously at anchor for about 32 hours before we need the generator, and the ability to run heat (240v and 120v Cruise Airs) or A/C while underway without the generator running. Since we do some blue water cruising, this was important to us. In the end, we have been very happy with the Victron products. Regardless of what product you go with, you will not regret the switch to Lithium Batteries.

Good luck on your project.

Jim
M/V Sea Venture
www.youtube.com/CruisingSeaVenture


That is a robust system. I really like the balance load transformer, much more effecient. Which chargers did you use?

Bud
 
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