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Old 01-15-2018, 10:56 PM   #81
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Then go seek out one of those "jewels".

For me, a nasty, filthy unmaintained boat is a deal killer.

And the point of the OP was commenting on how badly owners present their boats when trying to sell them. It's marketing 101, good quality photos, and lots of them make a difference in attracting potential customers. Same goes with a clean and uncluttered boat.
Every boat, car, plane or house that I buy is one of those "jewels". Different numbers, but the cost of what I buy is the purchase price, plus what it costs for the fix or rehab, without my labor. I've done a number of such deals and can't thing of a bad one. Just some better than others.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:11 PM   #82
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My son just recently bought the 28' Yawl I owned for 18 years before switching to the Albin-25 ten years ago. Son bought her cheap at Rockport, TX due to damage in Harvey and we towed he back to Milwaukee. The Hurricane damage is not serious and fairly easily repairable, however, it appears that NONE of the three owners subsequent to me ever did much maintenance. The boat is just plain grungy throughout. We were lucky that the original trailer put under the boat in 1987 was able to make the trip, because it is now headed for a junk yard. That trailer had been entirely road-worthy when I sold her to a buyer in Louisiana facing a 1000-mile trip home from Illinois ten years ago.
I love hearing about a family boat returning to the family. A very good friend recently purchased the family boat he grew up learning to sail. It's a beautiful passage making vessel that he renamed "Full Circle". Great name, IMO.

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My purpose to boat is to escape the insanity. (No reflection on the election night.) Have no TV onboard, and only one TV at the dirt home and no reason to apologize for same..
I certainly never meant for anyone to apologize for having a different perspective. Also, I was not replying to you, I was replying to geoleo who said, "TV is a disease and you have it. Sorry"
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Old 02-17-2018, 10:54 PM   #83
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Well, here’s my rant, a couple of questions, and big lessons learned.

Is an owner required to disclose known issues?
How much should a broker know/learn about a boat he’s marketing?

We inquired about a boat through our buyers broker. We had a list of questions about the boat that she submitted to the selling broker. The owner had only owned the boat about two years. He’s selling supposedly due to health reasons. They provided a copy of the survey they had done when they bought the boat. No red flag from that. The boat has Detroit Diesels and we learned that in the last year one of the engines had to be completely rebuilt. They provided a detailed receipt for the work. Nothing was said about the other engine. The ad listed cruising speed and max speed and silly us, we thought if they included the information it was because they knew it to be accurate. We made the 3.5 hr trip to go and look at the boat. The exterior of the boat was immaculate. The engine room was clean and well organized. There were a few interior issues we had concerns about and we asked the broker about them and he didn’t know but wrote down a list of questions to ask the owner. He got back with us and we were satisfied with the answers. We put in an offer on the boat and it was accepted. We then had the survey, mechanical survey, haul out, and sea trial. The survey was mostly ok. A few small things that we could have negotiated about. But the mechanic found some things of concern with the engine that had not been rebuilt. Something prompted him to call the mechanic who had done the rebuild on the other engine and he learned in speaking to him that he had recommended at the time that the second engine be rebuilt also. We also learned that the owner had intended to do just that once he got to Florida (they were going to be doing the loop). Only they never made it to Florida due to health issues. In the haul out, we learned that there was a decent area of delamination. During the sea trial, the boat did not perform anywhere near what was advertised. When hubby asked the owner about the performance, he said he had no idea that it wouldn’t run as it should have because he never ran it like that. He basically ran it only at trawler speeds. The whole thing was a huge disappointment. The oil analysis came back bad as we suspected it was going to. It was estimated that the boat needed about $50-60k of work to get the engines in good shape and still no guarantee that it would perform as WE expected it to. We walked away from the boat.
My beef is that we spent and lost $3k to learn what the owner did know or should have known and should have disclosed. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad we learned what we learned and were able to walk away, but it still makes me mad. I guess I’m more honest than that and my conscious wouldn’t allow me to do that. Hubby on the other hand gives the owner a little more benefit of the doubt. He thinks he just didn’t know any better. He met the man and I didn’t so I suppose that’s fair.

Now we have a contract on another boat of the same make and model but 4 yrs newer. We expect this one to go better than the other one. This boat initially wasn’t on our radar because it was listed for a price well outside of our budget. When the other deal fell through, we went back to looking and this one popped up on our search now in our budget. We had our broker inquire about it and we learned that it was now owned by a broker who had taken it in on trade. The previous owner had it priced way too high and when it didn’t sell, he decided to just trade it in. We knew this time to ask specifically about the boats performance. The broker provided us with a spreadsheet of performance data that he himself collected during a sea trial. This boat has Volvo D-12’s instead of the Detroit’s. In order to value it for trade, he had a survey done and had his mechanics go through the engines top to bottom. He gave us a copy of the oil analysis. He was up front about the condition of the boat. He told us it will need a bottom job soon and that the hull needs to be buffed and waxed. He told us all the things he was doing. Hubby flew to Florida to see the boat. The exterior isn’t in quite as good of condition as the other boat was, but it’s not in bad condition. Hubby described it like this....if the other boats exterior condition was a 9, then this one is a 7. We have surveys, haul out, and sea trial next Friday.

Anyhow, that’s my rant and where we are now. Hopefully next Friday, we’ll be setting a closing date for our new boat! Keeping my fingers crossed.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:45 PM   #84
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:54 PM   #85
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Good luck with this one. As a general rule, I tend to ascribe to things to ignorance rather than malice. The broker needs to disclose anything they know about the boat, and the owner should disclose anything they are aware of.

I just sold my sailboat Dec 31st, 2017. It had been on the market for a 1 1/2 years. Great boat, bad market. I made sure that my broker knew everything that I knew about the boat. In the 1 1/2 years it was on the market, it developed other problems (ie the radar quit working for some reason) and we made sure that every potential buyer was made aware of that. I just assume that other sellers will be as forthcoming as I am.

Again, good luck with this next boat. I hope all goes well. My only advice, for the little it is worth, is to not stress over the last failed purchase. Look ahead. Boating is stupid expensive, even the buying of a boat. It does little good to worry about money spent on failed purchases.
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Old 02-17-2018, 11:58 PM   #86
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If performance to stated specs is important put that requirement in your offer.
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:15 AM   #87
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Good luck with this one. As a general rule, I tend to ascribe to things to ignorance rather than malice. The broker needs to disclose anything they know about the boat, and the owner should disclose anything they are aware of.

I just sold my sailboat Dec 31st, 2017. It had been on the market for a 1 1/2 years. Great boat, bad market. I made sure that my broker knew everything that I knew about the boat. In the 1 1/2 years it was on the market, it developed other problems (ie the radar quit working for some reason) and we made sure that every potential buyer was made aware of that. I just assume that other sellers will be as forthcoming as I am.

Again, good luck with this next boat. I hope all goes well. My only advice, for the little it is worth, is to not stress over the last failed purchase. Look ahead. Boating is stupid expensive, even the buying of a boat. It does little good to worry about money spent on failed purchases.
I just gotta ask:

If boating is "... "stupid"expensive... Why does it "smart" so dang much when boat dollar$ go flying out!!?? LOL

English words have funny ways for expression.
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:21 AM   #88
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Thanks guys and dhays you’re absolutely right. We’re looking forward and not back but reading through this thread just made me want to get that off my chest.
It’s gone. Lol

Now if something goes wrong with this one and it falls through, I’m going to cry. Lol
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:57 AM   #89
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Boats can take a long time to sell. Add to that, more often than not its health or lifestyle changes that trigger a sale. There was likely some maintenance outstanding at the time of listing. A big ticket item in the offing might just have been the trigger event. And during the selling period that can grow significantly. What to do? Ask the owner, via the broker for a list of maintenance items, have your surveyor focus on that.

Presentation is usually easily fixed for a small money so I am not that concerned about it. But there can be big lumps of change in systems that need attention, and not just engines/gears. Some specific questions about this, with replies from the owner and not the broker, might help weed out the project boats.
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:45 AM   #90
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There is no "duty of disclosure" I know of, in a legal sense,at least. But if an owner or broker presents a "pig`s ear" as a "silk purse" he deserves his butt kicked, and likely burns the chance of a renegotiation. But that won`t reimburse the poor buyer for the expenses and disappointment in finding out the truth.
In fairness, it is possible for an owner to honestly not know something. I`ve heard said the better boats are those that get sold a few times, because they get surveyed, and (hopefully) get fixed.
Star, I hope attempt 2 comes out better. "All that glisters is not gold"
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:19 AM   #91
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Star,

We ran into a similar problem on a Mainship 390 we looked at before the NP. Owner ill, wife passed away. Engine presented as good but would not perform to specs, saturated core on fly bridge. I always felt the money spent on the survey was well spent.

Rob
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:38 AM   #92
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Well, hereís my rant, a couple of questions, and big lessons learned.

Is an owner required to disclose known issues?
How much should a broker know/learn about a boat heís marketing?

We inquired about a boat through our buyers broker. We had a list of questions about the boat that she submitted to the selling broker. The owner had only owned the boat about two years. Heís selling supposedly due to health reasons. They provided a copy of the survey they had done when they bought the boat. No red flag from that. The boat has Detroit Diesels and we learned that in the last year one of the engines had to be completely rebuilt. They provided a detailed receipt for the work. Nothing was said about the other engine. The ad listed cruising speed and max speed and silly us, we thought if they included the information it was because they knew it to be accurate. We made the 3.5 hr trip to go and look at the boat. The exterior of the boat was immaculate. The engine room was clean and well organized. There were a few interior issues we had concerns about and we asked the broker about them and he didnít know but wrote down a list of questions to ask the owner. He got back with us and we were satisfied with the answers. We put in an offer on the boat and it was accepted. We then had the survey, mechanical survey, haul out, and sea trial. The survey was mostly ok. A few small things that we could have negotiated about. But the mechanic found some things of concern with the engine that had not been rebuilt. Something prompted him to call the mechanic who had done the rebuild on the other engine and he learned in speaking to him that he had recommended at the time that the second engine be rebuilt also. We also learned that the owner had intended to do just that once he got to Florida (they were going to be doing the loop). Only they never made it to Florida due to health issues. In the haul out, we learned that there was a decent area of delamination. During the sea trial, the boat did not perform anywhere near what was advertised. When hubby asked the owner about the performance, he said he had no idea that it wouldnít run as it should have because he never ran it like that. He basically ran it only at trawler speeds. The whole thing was a huge disappointment. The oil analysis came back bad as we suspected it was going to. It was estimated that the boat needed about $50-60k of work to get the engines in good shape and still no guarantee that it would perform as WE expected it to. We walked away from the boat.
My beef is that we spent and lost $3k to learn what the owner did know or should have known and should have disclosed. Donít get me wrong, Iím glad we learned what we learned and were able to walk away, but it still makes me mad. I guess Iím more honest than that and my conscious wouldnít allow me to do that. Hubby on the other hand gives the owner a little more benefit of the doubt. He thinks he just didnít know any better. He met the man and I didnít so I suppose thatís fair.

Now we have a contract on another boat of the same make and model but 4 yrs newer. We expect this one to go better than the other one. This boat initially wasnít on our radar because it was listed for a price well outside of our budget. When the other deal fell through, we went back to looking and this one popped up on our search now in our budget. We had our broker inquire about it and we learned that it was now owned by a broker who had taken it in on trade. The previous owner had it priced way too high and when it didnít sell, he decided to just trade it in. We knew this time to ask specifically about the boats performance. The broker provided us with a spreadsheet of performance data that he himself collected during a sea trial. This boat has Volvo D-12ís instead of the Detroitís. In order to value it for trade, he had a survey done and had his mechanics go through the engines top to bottom. He gave us a copy of the oil analysis. He was up front about the condition of the boat. He told us it will need a bottom job soon and that the hull needs to be buffed and waxed. He told us all the things he was doing. Hubby flew to Florida to see the boat. The exterior isnít in quite as good of condition as the other boat was, but itís not in bad condition. Hubby described it like this....if the other boats exterior condition was a 9, then this one is a 7. We have surveys, haul out, and sea trial next Friday.

Anyhow, thatís my rant and where we are now. Hopefully next Friday, weíll be setting a closing date for our new boat! Keeping my fingers crossed.


I actually have an initial set of boat questions for when I call a boat for sale myself. YMMV but these have worked well for me to sift out the ones I was more interested in pursuing...

- Are all those pictures of your boat?
- Are the machinery hours TT?
- Do you have a full list of all items and options that convey with the boat?
- Are there maintenance records and are they up to date?
- Do you have a full history of the boat? Has it been damaged, partially submerged or seen heavy repairs?
- Can you send me 40-50 hi-res photos of the boat including all of the machinery?
- What is your cruise and max speeds and at what rpm do you see those?
- What currently does not work on the boat?
- Where is the boat currently and in what condition is it stored?
- Do you own this boat or maybe is it under an LLC or partnership? Do you have 100% rights to sell the boat unencumbered?

Have you received suitable answers to questions like these on your new prospect?
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:55 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by smitty477 View Post
I actually have an initial set of boat questions for when I call a boat for sale myself. YMMV but these have worked well for me to sift out the ones I was more interested in pursuing...

- Are all those pictures of your boat?
- Are the machinery hours TT?
- Do you have a full list of all items and options that convey with the boat?
- Are there maintenance records and are they up to date?
- Do you have a full history of the boat? Has it been damaged, partially submerged or seen heavy repairs?
- Can you send me 40-50 hi-res photos of the boat including all of the machinery?
- What is your cruise and max speeds and at what rpm do you see those?
- What currently does not work on the boat?
- Where is the boat currently and in what condition is it stored?
- Do you own this boat or maybe is it under an LLC or partnership? Do you have 100% rights to sell the boat unencumbered?

Have you received suitable answers to questions like these on your new prospect?
After the first deal fell through, hubby created a list of similar questions that we had our broker submit in writing. We had asked several of the questions on the first boat, but not all of them. As I said...big lessons learned.
But to answer your question, yes, we have all of those answers on the new prospect.
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:21 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smitty477 View Post
I actually have an initial set of boat questions for when I call a boat for sale myself. YMMV but these have worked well for me to sift out the ones I was more interested in pursuing...

- Are all those pictures of your boat?
- Are the machinery hours TT?
- Do you have a full list of all items and options that convey with the boat?
- Are there maintenance records and are they up to date?
- Do you have a full history of the boat? Has it been damaged, partially submerged or seen heavy repairs?
- Can you send me 40-50 hi-res photos of the boat including all of the machinery?
- What is your cruise and max speeds and at what rpm do you see those?
- What currently does not work on the boat?
- Where is the boat currently and in what condition is it stored?
- Do you own this boat or maybe is it under an LLC or partnership? Do you have 100% rights to sell the boat unencumbered?

Have you received suitable answers to questions like these on your new prospect?
Hi smitty447

Darn good list of questions there; and, of course there are other good ones to ask too.

I feel one should always have a well thought out, thorough question list on 8.5 x 11 inch paper for note insertions whenever seeking to purchase anything. Separate question and answer page for each item called upon gives good way to compare notes on available items.

For any used item... be it boat, car, motorcycle, truck etc ... my first question [after polite personal introduction] is nearly always: "How long have you owned this boat [or other item]"? This usually makes them need to think a brief moment and the answer is usually the truth. Matter of fact, the next item they often follow up with [via their own volition, no question asked by me] is why they are selling it. If they do not self provide that stat... then my second question is: "Why are you selling it"?

I've found that by asking the correct questions in correct sequence can quickly determine if you want to proceed in looking closer at something that is for sale.

Sometimes the seller gets a bit disturbed at questions... and... that is too bad for them. Because, if they can't pleasantly take the few minutes time to answer pertinent questions about the many thou$and dollar "used" item they are trying to sell... I politely end the call; that item's "note page" gets crumpled and tossed directly into my round file.

Then Next Phone Call - for - Next Contestant Please! - LOL
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Old 02-18-2018, 01:09 PM   #95
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I find that 25% of the brokers are hard working and knowledgeable, 50% are knowledgeable but lazy and 25% are clueless.

I find that 25% of the sellers understand what there boat is worth and the condition itís in, 50% of the sellers are unrealistic thinking there boat is perfect and worth a premium over all other boats listed and 25% either are dishonest or suffering from an undiagnosed mental illness.

If you run into a clueless broker with a mental seller your time and money is just wasted.

I found a boat listed on yacht world were over half of the equipment listed in fact didnít function (generator, diesel heater, stabilizers, gps, etc.). The broker was knowledgeable but lazy, he portrayed the boat as good but couldnít guarantee the listing didnít have errors. The seller was a nut job, he thought his boat was ready to leave LA for Alaska despite the fact his bilge pump cycled every 3 minutes.
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:13 PM   #96
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Hi smitty447

Darn good list of questions there; and, of course there are other good ones to ask too.

I feel one should always have a well thought out, thorough question list on 8.5 x 11 inch paper for note insertions whenever seeking to purchase anything. Separate question and answer page for each item called upon gives good way to compare notes on available items.

For any used item... be it boat, car, motorcycle, truck etc ... my first question [after polite personal introduction] is nearly always: "How long have you owned this boat [or other item]"? This usually makes them need to think a brief moment and the answer is usually the truth. Matter of fact, the next item they often follow up with [via their own volition, no question asked by me] is why they are selling it. If they do not self provide that stat... then my second question is: "Why are you selling it"?

I've found that by asking the correct questions in correct sequence can quickly determine if you want to proceed in looking closer at something that is for sale.

Sometimes the seller gets a bit disturbed at questions... and... that is too bad for them. Because, if they can't pleasantly take the few minutes time to answer pertinent questions about the many thou$and dollar "used" item they are trying to sell... I politely end the call; that item's "note page" gets crumpled and tossed directly into my round file.

Then Next Phone Call - for - Next Contestant Please! - LOL
Isn't it amazing that some sellers (owners and brokers) that get perturbed when a prospective buyer starts asking questions? Or a broker who has no knowledge of his listing other than what it is on the spec sheet.

Amazing.
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:18 PM   #97
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I find that 25% of the brokers are hard working and knowledgeable, 50% are knowledgeable but lazy and 25% are clueless.

I find that 25% of the sellers understand what there boat is worth and the condition itís in, 50% of the sellers are unrealistic thinking there boat is perfect and worth a premium over all other boats listed and 25% either are dishonest or suffering from an undiagnosed mental illness.

If you run into a clueless broker with a mental seller your time and money is just wasted.

I found a boat listed on yacht world were over half of the equipment listed in fact didnít function (generator, diesel heater, stabilizers, gps, etc.). The broker was knowledgeable but lazy, he portrayed the boat as good but couldnít guarantee the listing didnít have errors. The seller was a nut job, he thought his boat was ready to leave LA for Alaska despite the fact his bilge pump cycled every 3 minutes.
A very good assessment.
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:56 PM   #98
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Another interesting thing I've discovered is the number of advertised boats that are listed for sale but have been sold, some for several months. Is it really that difficult to remove a listing from YW or other web sites once the boat sells?
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:02 PM   #99
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Another interesting thing I've discovered is the number of advertised boats that are listed for sale but have been sold, some for several months. Is it really that difficult to remove a listing from YW or other web sites once the boat sells?
That is a common brokers trick. It drives traffic to the broker. It also makes the perspective buyer think boats are selling fast.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:05 PM   #100
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That is a common brokers trick. It drives traffic to the broker. It also makes the perspective buyer think boats are selling fast.
Makes sense. Another broker's trick is "Owner Anxious, Make an Offer!"
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