Used boat presentations

[Datenight]

Star,

We ran into a similar problem on a Mainship 390 we looked at before the NP. Owner ill, wife passed away. Engine presented as good but would not perform to specs, saturated core on fly bridge. I always felt the money spent on the survey was well spent.

Rob

 

[smitty477]

Well, here’s my rant, a couple of questions, and big lessons learned.

Is an owner required to disclose known issues?
How much should a broker know/learn about a boat he’s marketing?

We inquired about a boat through our buyers broker. We had a list of questions about the boat that she submitted to the selling broker. The owner had only owned the boat about two years. He’s selling supposedly due to health reasons. They provided a copy of the survey they had done when they bought the boat. No red flag from that. The boat has Detroit Diesels and we learned that in the last year one of the engines had to be completely rebuilt. They provided a detailed receipt for the work. Nothing was said about the other engine. The ad listed cruising speed and max speed and silly us, we thought if they included the information it was because they knew it to be accurate. We made the 3.5 hr trip to go and look at the boat. The exterior of the boat was immaculate. The engine room was clean and well organized. There were a few interior issues we had concerns about and we asked the broker about them and he didn’t know but wrote down a list of questions to ask the owner. He got back with us and we were satisfied with the answers. We put in an offer on the boat and it was accepted. We then had the survey, mechanical survey, haul out, and sea trial. The survey was mostly ok. A few small things that we could have negotiated about. But the mechanic found some things of concern with the engine that had not been rebuilt. Something prompted him to call the mechanic who had done the rebuild on the other engine and he learned in speaking to him that he had recommended at the time that the second engine be rebuilt also. We also learned that the owner had intended to do just that once he got to Florida (they were going to be doing the loop). Only they never made it to Florida due to health issues. In the haul out, we learned that there was a decent area of delamination. During the sea trial, the boat did not perform anywhere near what was advertised. When hubby asked the owner about the performance, he said he had no idea that it wouldn’t run as it should have because he never ran it like that. He basically ran it only at trawler speeds. The whole thing was a huge disappointment. The oil analysis came back bad as we suspected it was going to. It was estimated that the boat needed about $50-60k of work to get the engines in good shape and still no guarantee that it would perform as WE expected it to. We walked away from the boat.
My beef is that we spent and lost $3k to learn what the owner did know or should have known and should have disclosed. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad we learned what we learned and were able to walk away, but it still makes me mad. I guess I’m more honest than that and my conscious wouldn’t allow me to do that. Hubby on the other hand gives the owner a little more benefit of the doubt. He thinks he just didn’t know any better. He met the man and I didn’t so I suppose that’s fair.

Now we have a contract on another boat of the same make and model but 4 yrs newer. We expect this one to go better than the other one. This boat initially wasn’t on our radar because it was listed for a price well outside of our budget. When the other deal fell through, we went back to looking and this one popped up on our search now in our budget. We had our broker inquire about it and we learned that it was now owned by a broker who had taken it in on trade. The previous owner had it priced way too high and when it didn’t sell, he decided to just trade it in. We knew this time to ask specifically about the boats performance. The broker provided us with a spreadsheet of performance data that he himself collected during a sea trial. This boat has Volvo D-12’s instead of the Detroit’s. In order to value it for trade, he had a survey done and had his mechanics go through the engines top to bottom. He gave us a copy of the oil analysis. He was up front about the condition of the boat. He told us it will need a bottom job soon and that the hull needs to be buffed and waxed. He told us all the things he was doing. Hubby flew to Florida to see the boat. The exterior isn’t in quite as good of condition as the other boat was, but it’s not in bad condition. Hubby described it like this....if the other boats exterior condition was a 9, then this one is a 7. We have surveys, haul out, and sea trial next Friday.

Anyhow, that’s my rant and where we are now. Hopefully next Friday, we’ll be setting a closing date for our new boat! Keeping my fingers crossed.

I actually have an initial set of boat questions for when I call a boat for sale myself. YMMV but these have worked well for me to sift out the ones I was more interested in pursuing...

- Are all those pictures of your boat?
- Are the machinery hours TT?
- Do you have a full list of all items and options that convey with the boat?
- Are there maintenance records and are they up to date?
- Do you have a full history of the boat? Has it been damaged, partially submerged or seen heavy repairs?
- Can you send me 40-50 hi-res photos of the boat including all of the machinery?
- What is your cruise and max speeds and at what rpm do you see those?
- What currently does not work on the boat?
- Where is the boat currently and in what condition is it stored?
- Do you own this boat or maybe is it under an LLC or partnership? Do you have 100% rights to sell the boat unencumbered?

Have you received suitable answers to questions like these on your new prospect?

 

[Star0210]

I actually have an initial set of boat questions for when I call a boat for sale myself. YMMV but these have worked well for me to sift out the ones I was more interested in pursuing...

- Are all those pictures of your boat?
- Are the machinery hours TT?
- Do you have a full list of all items and options that convey with the boat?
- Are there maintenance records and are they up to date?
- Do you have a full history of the boat? Has it been damaged, partially submerged or seen heavy repairs?
- Can you send me 40-50 hi-res photos of the boat including all of the machinery?
- What is your cruise and max speeds and at what rpm do you see those?
- What currently does not work on the boat?
- Where is the boat currently and in what condition is it stored?
- Do you own this boat or maybe is it under an LLC or partnership? Do you have 100% rights to sell the boat unencumbered?

Have you received suitable answers to questions like these on your new prospect?

After the first deal fell through, hubby created a list of similar questions that we had our broker submit in writing. We had asked several of the questions on the first boat, but not all of them. As I said...big lessons learned.
But to answer your question, yes, we have all of those answers on the new prospect.

 

[Art]

I actually have an initial set of boat questions for when I call a boat for sale myself. YMMV but these have worked well for me to sift out the ones I was more interested in pursuing...

- Are all those pictures of your boat?
- Are the machinery hours TT?
- Do you have a full list of all items and options that convey with the boat?
- Are there maintenance records and are they up to date?
- Do you have a full history of the boat? Has it been damaged, partially submerged or seen heavy repairs?
- Can you send me 40-50 hi-res photos of the boat including all of the machinery?
- What is your cruise and max speeds and at what rpm do you see those?
- What currently does not work on the boat?
- Where is the boat currently and in what condition is it stored?
- Do you own this boat or maybe is it under an LLC or partnership? Do you have 100% rights to sell the boat unencumbered?

Have you received suitable answers to questions like these on your new prospect?

Hi smitty447

Darn good list of questions there; and, of course there are other good ones to ask too.

I feel one should always have a well thought out, thorough question list on 8.5 x 11 inch paper for note insertions whenever seeking to purchase anything. Separate question and answer page for each item called upon gives good way to compare notes on available items.

For any used item... be it boat, car, motorcycle, truck etc ... my first question [after polite personal introduction] is nearly always: "How long have you owned this boat [or other item]"? This usually makes them need to think a brief moment and the answer is usually the truth. Matter of fact, the next item they often follow up with [via their own volition, no question asked by me] is why they are selling it. If they do not self provide that stat... then my second question is: "Why are you selling it"?

I've found that by asking the correct questions in correct sequence can quickly determine if you want to proceed in looking closer at something that is for sale.

Sometimes the seller gets a bit disturbed at questions... and... that is too bad for them. Because, if they can't pleasantly take the few minutes time to answer pertinent questions about the many thou$and dollar "used" item they are trying to sell... I politely end the call; that item's "note page" gets crumpled and tossed directly into my round file.

Then Next Phone Call - for - Next Contestant Please! - LOL

 

[tiltrider1]

I find that 25% of the brokers are hard working and knowledgeable, 50% are knowledgeable but lazy and 25% are clueless.

I find that 25% of the sellers understand what there boat is worth and the condition it’s in, 50% of the sellers are unrealistic thinking there boat is perfect and worth a premium over all other boats listed and 25% either are dishonest or suffering from an undiagnosed mental illness.

If you run into a clueless broker with a mental seller your time and money is just wasted.

I found a boat listed on yacht world were over half of the equipment listed in fact didn’t function (generator, diesel heater, stabilizers, gps, etc.). The broker was knowledgeable but lazy, he portrayed the boat as good but couldn’t guarantee the listing didn’t have errors. The seller was a nut job, he thought his boat was ready to leave LA for Alaska despite the fact his bilge pump cycled every 3 minutes.

 

[CaptRonn]

Hi smitty447

Darn good list of questions there; and, of course there are other good ones to ask too.

I feel one should always have a well thought out, thorough question list on 8.5 x 11 inch paper for note insertions whenever seeking to purchase anything. Separate question and answer page for each item called upon gives good way to compare notes on available items.

For any used item... be it boat, car, motorcycle, truck etc ... my first question [after polite personal introduction] is nearly always: "How long have you owned this boat [or other item]"? This usually makes them need to think a brief moment and the answer is usually the truth. Matter of fact, the next item they often follow up with [via their own volition, no question asked by me] is why they are selling it. If they do not self provide that stat... then my second question is: "Why are you selling it"?

I've found that by asking the correct questions in correct sequence can quickly determine if you want to proceed in looking closer at something that is for sale.

Sometimes the seller gets a bit disturbed at questions... and... that is too bad for them. Because, if they can't pleasantly take the few minutes time to answer pertinent questions about the many thou$and dollar "used" item they are trying to sell... I politely end the call; that item's "note page" gets crumpled and tossed directly into my round file.

Then Next Phone Call - for - Next Contestant Please! - LOL

Isn't it amazing that some sellers (owners and brokers) that get perturbed when a prospective buyer starts asking questions? Or a broker who has no knowledge of his listing other than what it is on the spec sheet.

Amazing.

 

[CaptRonn]

I find that 25% of the brokers are hard working and knowledgeable, 50% are knowledgeable but lazy and 25% are clueless.

I find that 25% of the sellers understand what there boat is worth and the condition it’s in, 50% of the sellers are unrealistic thinking there boat is perfect and worth a premium over all other boats listed and 25% either are dishonest or suffering from an undiagnosed mental illness.

If you run into a clueless broker with a mental seller your time and money is just wasted.

I found a boat listed on yacht world were over half of the equipment listed in fact didn’t function (generator, diesel heater, stabilizers, gps, etc.). The broker was knowledgeable but lazy, he portrayed the boat as good but couldn’t guarantee the listing didn’t have errors. The seller was a nut job, he thought his boat was ready to leave LA for Alaska despite the fact his bilge pump cycled every 3 minutes.

A very good assessment.

 

[CaptRonn]

Another interesting thing I've discovered is the number of advertised boats that are listed for sale but have been sold, some for several months. Is it really that difficult to remove a listing from YW or other web sites once the boat sells?

 

[tiltrider1]

Another interesting thing I've discovered is the number of advertised boats that are listed for sale but have been sold, some for several months. Is it really that difficult to remove a listing from YW or other web sites once the boat sells?

That is a common brokers trick. It drives traffic to the broker. It also makes the perspective buyer think boats are selling fast.

 

[CaptRonn]

That is a common brokers trick. It drives traffic to the broker. It also makes the perspective buyer think boats are selling fast.

Makes sense. Another broker's trick is "Owner Anxious, Make an Offer!"

 

[FF]

"I find that 25% of the sellers understand what there boat is worth and the condition it’s in, 50% of the sellers are unrealistic thinking there boat is perfect and worth a premium over all other boats listed and 25% either are dishonest or suffering from an undiagnosed mental illness."

Perhaps true , but remember folks are purchasing a USED boat , and having expectations that it will be in the same /better condition than a new boat is very unrealistic.

For most folks the boat is a very emotional purchase (or sale).

When you step aboard , most times you will KNOW if its the boat for you, , pending survey.

 

[Art]

"I find that 25% of the sellers understand what there boat is worth and the condition it’s in, 50% of the sellers are unrealistic thinking there boat is perfect and worth a premium over all other boats listed and 25% either are dishonest or suffering from an undiagnosed mental illness."

Perhaps true , but remember folks are purchasing a USED boat , and having expectations that it will be in the same /better condition than a new boat is very unrealistic.

For most folks the boat is a very emotional purchase (or sale).

When you step aboard , most times you will KNOW if its the boat for you, , pending survey.

That is THE truth!

There's an old thought pattern that THE boat choses you. There is truth in that too!