Trawler, Motor Sailor, SV, Sailing Cat?

[skyhawk]

I'm curious to read from a trawler owner's perspective about the choice of cruising boats. Why are you in a MV as opposed to a SV? Regrets?

I grew up around power boats and have been around them most of my life....a coast guard brat....but never anything worthy of cruising....small boats only. Currently own just a little 18ft outboard runabout. We have a motorhome now and have talked about seasonal 'cruising' or fulltiming in that as we inch a bit closer to retirement....but lately I'm really drawn to moving that onto a boat instead.

Most of my life I've thought in the back of my mind that a trawler seems like a better way to go than a sailing boat if I were to ever do this....but lately sailing has become more interesting. The idea of being able to travel in more or less silence when not in any sort of hurry....saving the need to be tied to finding fuel docks and all of that.

Also, the catamarans look interesting from the perspective of reduced roll while at anchor.... something very important for my wife....and from the perspective of the deck level salon, windows, and such....also very important for her. They don't however fit into the one thing that my wife has really perked up about...the european canals. Mostly I imagine us cruising the east coat of the US, probably down in the islands, and maybe doing some or all of the great loop (not sure about that last one).

Anyway, I'm really curious about the motorsailors.... seems very interesting to me in many ways, but certainly don't seem very popular. In practice I really wonder how much fuel is really saved, etc.... vs the hassles with the restriction in air draft.

Also, I'm curious how the lifestyle compares.... in real world total experience how much fuel and maintenance costs...MV vs SV vs MS

 

[cardude01]

I have a small motorsailer. It actually started off as a motor vessel, but it was too rolly for us for extended cruising to the Bahamas, so I had a mast and sails added. My boat was actually designed initially as a pilot house sailboat so it was basically set up for a mast, but it was still quite a process adding the rig, so this idea probably doesn’t make much sense for most boats. Plus, it wasn’t cheap. I’ve forgotten how much, because if I keep track of all that it will depress me. [emoji30]


The sail rig is used mostly for stability purposes, but it does let me pull back on the engine just a bit when cruising if the wind is blowing enough and in the right direction. If the engine quits the sails will move the boat slowly, so it can be considered a “get home” rig I suppose. A “get somewhere” rig is probably more accurate however, because without the engine you are at the mercy of wind direction. It doesn’t steer at various wind directions like a real sailboat.

I can also use the rig to hoist the tender onto the PH roof, and it’s great for hanging hammocks at anchor.


If you really want to explore different parts of the globe and don’t mind getting wet and steering from outside, I think a good “blue water” sailboat might be the best choice. I like my inside steering station in the PH, but I also like the idea of a sailing catamaran, and if I ever update to a bigger boat for full time living a catamaran would be my first choice I think.

 

[mvweebles]

I enjoy sailing and have had as many sailboats as powerboats (which isn't many - I'm not a serial boat buyer). A lot depends on where you are and how you plan to use the boat. Doing the Great Loop? Sail is possible, but power hands-down. Going to Hawaii? Some powerboats can do it, but for the most part, there are many more choices in sail than power.

I landed with power/trawler years ago because I like the comfort. Most of my boating was on the Pacific off the California coast. It's dang cold out there at night, even in middle of summer. I am now in Florida where opposite is the problem: it's dang hot out there.

When I was delivering boats, I started with delivery of several sailboats. Frankly, I found powerboats to be safer. There are a lot of ways to get hurt on a sailboat, especially one you don't know well and are pushing a bit as deliveries are apt to do. It didn't take me long before I just stopped delivering sailboats. Even though a 40-foot hull has the same speed potential, sailboats tend to be under-powered with props optimized for sail, not power,. So they are considerably slower than even a displacement trawler.

I too am intrigued by motorsailor. But they tend to be bastard children - neither fish nor fowl. The Nauticat catches my eye. But for the most part, I would lean towards a trawler with a decent sail plan. I'd view sail first as stabilization; second as auxiliary propulsion to extend range; and finally, as get-somewhere power (not get-home, but get-somewhere). Diesel Ducks often carry a nice sail plan. Some W36 pilothouse versions do too.

In the end though, unless you're doing some serious cruising, its hard to refute the charge that a MS is the worst of both worlds requiring significant maintenance of both sail and power systems, with a big stick that limits air draft.

I'm not a fan of cats. Love the space, don't care for the motion. I've just spent too much time on monohulls - I sort of like them. Not a rational statement, just recognition that I'm an old dog that doesn't accept too many new tricks these days.

Peter

 

[bligh]

I'm curious to read from a trawler owner's perspective about the choice of cruising boats. Why are you in a MV as opposed to a SV? Regrets?

I grew up around power boats and have been around them most of my life....a coast guard brat....but never anything worthy of cruising....small boats only. Currently own just a little 18ft outboard runabout. We have a motorhome now and have talked about seasonal 'cruising' or fulltiming in that as we inch a bit closer to retirement....but lately I'm really drawn to moving that onto a boat instead.

Most of my life I've thought in the back of my mind that a trawler seems like a better way to go than a sailing boat if I were to ever do this....but lately sailing has become more interesting. The idea of being able to travel in more or less silence when not in any sort of hurry....saving the need to be tied to finding fuel docks and all of that.

Also, the catamarans look interesting from the perspective of reduced roll while at anchor.... something very important for my wife....and from the perspective of the deck level salon, windows, and such....also very important for her. They don't however fit into the one thing that my wife has really perked up about...the european canals. Mostly I imagine us cruising the east coat of the US, probably down in the islands, and maybe doing some or all of the great loop (not sure about that last one).

Anyway, I'm really curious about the motorsailors.... seems very interesting to me in many ways, but certainly don't seem very popular. In practice I really wonder how much fuel is really saved, etc.... vs the hassles with the restriction in air draft.

Also, I'm curious how the lifestyle compares.... in real world total experience how much fuel and maintenance costs...MV vs SV vs MS

FYI. Every sailboat is a motorsailer to some degree. Most sailboats that get lots of use and have schedules to maintain end up motoring when there is little wind or the wind is not in a favorable direction.

All your questions are valid and can be answered by getting aboard sailboats , catamarans, and trawlers. Some powerboats and sailboats are noisier than others when under power which you may want to be hyper aware of. If you are looking to cross oceans a sailing cat or monohull is likely the most cost effective and comfortable way to go. While there are thousands if not tens of thousands of sailboat on the market capable of crossing oceans, there are few trawlers capable of that feat.

Powerboats have some advantages over sailboats though. Power boats can usually travel much faster than a sailboat. While 10 miles per hour is not fast, its still twice as fast as 5 mph. Powerboats have much of their living space above water with lots of windows which make for great views while underway and at anchorages. Sailboats maintain their living spaces below the water line and have fewer and smaller windows for safety.

There are positives and negatives for each type of boat. First , define what you will want your boat to do for 90 % of your ownership -ie sleep 4 , coastal cruise on weekends, keep you dry in rainy weather, becable to access shallow areas, entertain 12 for the afternoon, sail to Tahiti and back, etc. Then I suggest you get aboard as many types of vessels you can and watch as many YouTube channels as you can. At some point you will gravitate towards one type of boat that will comfortably fit your needs and budget.

 

[woolf]

We had a cruising monohull sailboat before, with a decent engine for a 6 -7 kn cruising speed.

We came to a trawler, because we wanted to cruise higher latitudes, (little wind in summer, strong currents and high tides) and no ocean crossings. A salon and live-in pilothouse on deck is pure comfort in cold and wet shoulder seasons, compared to a smallish pilothouse and lower salon on the sailboat. Also to carry more gear like larger tender for excursions, kayaks, etc.

Once we return to warm water cruising, it will be on a sailing catamaran.

 

[skyhawk]

While there are thousands if not tens of thousands of sailboat on the market capable of crossing oceans, there are few trawlers capable of that feat.

yeah, interesting point. While crossing oceans regularly is not a dream I have, I do think that I'd like to cruise from US East coast over to Europe and spend some time over there....at some point. Once.

Powerboats have some advantages over sailboats though. Power boats can usually travel much faster than a sailboat. While 10 miles per hour is not fast, its still twice as fast as 5 mph. Powerboats have much of their living space above water with lots of windows which make for great views while underway and at anchorages. Sailboats maintain their living spaces below the water line and have fewer and smaller windows for safety.

All reasons why cats and trawlers appeal to me more than mono SV. Seems logical in my vision that living at anchor, at mooring,or in marina will be by far more hours than hours spent under way.
I did have a youtube vid pop up in my google news feed the other day taht was a marketing review of some new "Deck Salon" monohull SV. It looked to have a very wide beam proportionally and looked to be an interesting compromise with a cat. I can't recall the name of it.

There are positives and negatives for each type of boat. First , define what you will want your boat to do for 90 % of your ownership -ie sleep 4 , coastal cruise on weekends, keep you dry in rainy weather, becable to access shallow areas, entertain 12 for the afternoon, sail to Tahiti and back, etc. Then I suggest you get aboard as many types of vessels you can and watch as many YouTube channels as you can. At some point you will gravitate towards one type of boat that will comfortably fit your needs and budget.

That is why I'm starting to explore big boat shows that I might be able to attend.... and why I'm spending time here and on cruiser forum too, to get the SV perspective!

I heard someone on youtube once say...it might have been the folks on Ruby Rose....to buy the boat for what you plan to do now...in the next few years.... not one that fits for some longer term plan. That is also something to consider....although not really my style to flip and trade often. I like the idea of getting something, learn it well, get it dialed in and customized to my preferences, and keep it a while.... and not sure I have the budget long term to make multiple trades if I'm loosing capital at every turn.

 

[skyhawk]

I had originally written this under the thread about expenses
but I'm moving it here...seems to fit the line of thinking better....

I suppose a takeaway from what I've read so far is that for the most part it seems the idea of a motor sailor is to use the engine while under sail. To me, that totally ruins the idea. I think a major part of the appeal to me is that while traveling from one point to another if I'm in no particular hurry, the silence of sail sounds really nice to me! I suppose it doesn't seem such a bad compromise if it were loosing say only a knot or three of speed compared to a pure SV...but I'm gathering that most if not all won't sail to anywhere near the same ballpark of speed....meaning that a person would be a whole lot less likely to sail alone

 

[AusCan]

Most motorsailers are designed to run with both motor and sail. I run with both probably 60% of the time. I wont bother with the sail if I'm just doing a short trip, if there is less than 10 knots of wind, or if I am pointing directly into the wind.
I run with sail only about 10% of the time. I need about 20 -25 knots of wind preferably on a broad reach wind to push me along at 5-6 knots.

I like the options a motorsailer gives. On a long cruise on the open ocean, running a power boat can get a bit monotonous. I enjoy fine tuning the sails ti give me that extra 0.1 or 0.2 of a knot. I can use the extra power to maintain speed but reduce the engine revs for a quieter ride.

Motorsailers generally have very simple sail rigs. The sail area is roughly half the size of a similar sized sailboat. Half the sail means half the stress on masts, rigging and fittings. The wear and tear is much less than a full-on sailboat. Maintenance is less. I still run with the original sails on my 35 year old boat, although a true sailer would have replaced them by now.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Sailboats are for fun.
Powerboats are to go somewhere.
You can go to Alaska w a sailboat but you’ll need a very effective auxiliary engine. And the engine will accumulate lots of hours as most of the time in SE there’s little or no wind because of the complete cloud cover. Some years that’s not so but it usually is.

And of course a huge reason to come to Alaska to see the beautiful scenery. But how can you do that w/o going out to sit in a small cockpit ... in the rain. Or stay inside and try and see something through small “port” windows. And if you happened to be sailing you’ll only see the water going by or the cloudy sky.

Anchoring w an 8’ draft can be very troublesome or/and dangerous.

And going into many of SE alaska’a village’s w a catamaran be advised that Alaska harbors are mostly made/configured for fishboats and skiffs. And every harbor is very crowded all summer.

Trawlers and cruisers are the only appropriate boat for SE Alaska. Can one go in a sailboat? Of course. I’ve seen hundreds of them crowded together in the sailboat cockpit in the rain. And I’ve seen hundreds more sailing along at walking speeds or less .... maybe even w their
raingear stowed.

But when a sailboater wants to go to Alaska he has no choice. But I’ve seen many sailboats filled w people having a fun and adventurous time in Alaska.

Having said all that, possibly w an opinionated slant, the best boat in SE may be a motorsailer. But there’s still the deep keel.

 

[DDW]

Sailboats are for fun.
Powerboats are to go somewhere.

In the PNW, I'll agree with that. Many other places the reverse is true.

 

[ksanders]

One simple response to the OP’s question...

Size.

Go into a sail boat, and go into a trawler of the same length.. The interior volume difference is dramatic.

 

[cardude01]

In the PNW, I'll agree with that. Many other places the reverse is true.

For someone who wants to go long distances or cross oceans, a sailboat seems to be the more popular choice.
But I agree, sitting outside in the cockpit a sailboat in Alaska sounds pretty terrible. Actually, sitting outside all day sounds pretty terrible to me in hot climates as well.

I like my little pilothouse design where I can stay warm/cool and dry, but I do wish it had more room inside at times.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have been internationally cruising for the last seven years on a 46’ monohull with hard Bimini and large hard dodger. This is now becoming the common set up on blue water sailboats.
Wet/cold- you’re under a hard dodger. All lines are lead aft. All winches are powered. All electronics have repeaters or are duplicated there. Turn on the wesbasto. Sit on the threshold of the companionway and you can sail in freezing sleet in your whitey tighties.
Hot- after living full time for 8 of 12 months in the tropics mostly south of 12N the AC very rarely went on. Maybe 1 or 2 windless, humid days a month. Then only to get the humidity out of the air. Sitting under a hard dodger in the trade winds heat just isn’t a problem. I’m now looking to buy power. One of the big decision makers is adequacy of passive ventilation. Choose right this is a non issue power or sail anywhere in the tropical trades.
Space- you are living with just your bride or significant other 95% of the time. As regards space only three things matter. One, having two separate spaces you can get sonically, visually and physically away from each other. Sometimes you need to detailed paperwork or just want to be alone. You can do that in 30’. Second is to have an actual work room. Someplace to put all your tools, have a vise, be able to make dirty(and easily clean). Third and possibly most important is space for storage that doesn’t ruin trim and allows no damage to what your storing. Regardless of how large the boat is there’s never enough storage space and you’re always tossing something to make room for something else you want. It’s a very unusual couple that needs more space than provided in a 45-50’ boat sail or power.
Power or sail the needs when living and cruising a boat are very different then when you’re not. The needs of a long term cruiser are determined by human biology and psychology. How those needs are met are more similar than not .
Speed- this maybe the most common misperception. For the mainstream mom and pop who can’t afford a mega yacht or just doesn’t want crew FD usually makes more sense than SD if their program includes passages +/or liveaboard. You can jam more stuff (payload) into a FD boat without comprising safety or performance. That being the case speeds are the same with a favoring to sail. I’ve followed my days work over the years closely. I’ve spoken with friends on KKs and Nordhavns. Size matters. Particularly LWL. The rest is mostly irrelevant. Sail is favored as hulls either have a more favorable prismatic coefficient, are narrower or have less parasitic drag. Although gentlemen don’t go to weather in fact you do 20-30% of the time. Sail usually can go safer in those conditions and still be comfortable. Cruisers will trade comfort for speed. Hot sit down meals for snicker bars and Coca Cola. Good sleep in a comfy berth for the easy chair or sole. When it’s sparky out motor more commonly needs to slow down. This adds up to favor sail as long as there’s an adequate engine. For the last few decades that’s been an non issue. Cruising sail in the 40-50’ range usually has 80-110hp in it. They are not inadequately powered anymore. They are ancillary oil screws but fully capable of running at hull speed under power.
Multis are great but very few are aimed at the mom and pop cruiser. Very few have a dedicated work space. All are weight sensitive. Few are optimized for open ocean performance and safety. Most are aimed at the charter companies needs not that of cruisers There are no free lunches. Both mono and multi work but both require major concessions in your cruising program. I’m switching to power for two reasons. One, I’ve never long term cruised in power. I’m real interested in learning new skills and having new experiences. Second, wife is no longer safe on deck. She fell 10’ off a ladder getting on the boat and busted up her ankle so her balance still suffers. A line too much twist in it with to pass through a deck organizer. A deck walk to check for chafe. Things like that aren’t safe for her anymore. You need to have the admiral fully vested to cruise. If she’s nervous it’s a no go.