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Old 07-27-2020, 08:57 PM   #1
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From rags to the pot

Hi all
Iím a retired MD. 7 years I had my first new boat built-an Outbound 46. Theyíre semi custom boats built for blue water. Prior I owned a one off built for the OSTAR, a Tayana, several Cape Dories, a Pacific Seacraft, a Monitor and a multiple small craft both power and sail. Iíve done multiple Bermuda races, transports from New England to the leewards but the most enthralling has been being captain on the boat of my conception sailing back and forth from New England to the islands and living on her in the windwards and leewards.
With the Outbound we snowbirded mostly with the Salty Dawg Rally sailing from Rhode Island to the Leewards in the fall and back in the spring. So overall have tens of thousands of blue water miles and about the same coastal.
Now wife says itís time to move on so doing the classic transition from sail to trawler. As always itís more important to know what you donít know than what you do know. Thatís why Iím here. Figure you guys know more than I and Iím ready to learn.
Once the outbound sells Iíll be looking for something for two to cruise. Want a solid vessel, 1500nm range with 10% reserve, prefer fins, prefer grp but aluminum is fine. A good Fe boat is okay depending on coatings. Have been on Puffins (a Dutch sailboat) where there wasnít a speck of rust a decade out so know it can be done. As will not be full time liveaboards but rather just for months at time donít want to break the bank this time around. Been sailing and a boat owner for ~35 years so have basic knowledge and skill set of the typical liveaboard. Know naturally aspirated and turbo but clueless on common rail.
So far like Norhavn, KK, Cherubini (range problematic), Seahorse, and some converted commercial craft. If I hit the lottery Iíd be on a Artnautica or Arksen but not this time around. Wife wants something in the 40-50í range. Not too big that docking is a tight sphincter event but adequate LWL for a decent days work. We much prefer living on the hook and donít like marinas nor living in a slip.
Look forward to your throwing pearls at me. Thanks all.
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:06 PM   #2
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Greetings,
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:36 PM   #3
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Welcome aboard.

When you say Seahorse do you mean Diesel Ducks?
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Old 07-28-2020, 01:07 AM   #4
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Old 07-28-2020, 02:51 AM   #5
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Welcome to TF, you brainy fellow medic. I think the silence re boat suggestions is because your experience already makes it a bit daunting for us to advise you, as it might be a bit like trying to tell granny how to suck eggs. However, I'm sure some will be forthcoming re recommendations about boat choice once they've had time to digest your post, and mull it over a bit. For mine, you couldn't go far wrong looking at Nordys and Selenes, and maybe also Grand Banks. It sounds like your budget might be up to that..?
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Old 07-28-2020, 04:52 AM   #6
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Welcome to TF, you brainy fellow medic. I think the silence re boat suggestions is because your experience already makes it a bit daunting for us to advise you, as it might be a bit like trying to tell granny how to suck eggs. However, I'm sure some will be forthcoming re recommendations about boat choice once they've had time to digest your post, and mull it over a bit. For mine, you couldn't go far wrong looking at Nordys and Selenes, and maybe also Grand Banks. It sounds like your budget might be up to that..?
Ask what size anchor ball or steaming cone he uses....might as well get baptized early...
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Old 07-28-2020, 05:31 AM   #7
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Welcome and grab your checkbook
I agree with your 40-50 length. Two staterooms to entertain company in reasonable comfort plus the extra storage space.

Below are the rambling of 'just me' in no particular order.

1. new or used (I suggest a used boat unless you want to wait a couple of years while they build it. You might want to check with some builders to see if they have a 'near completed' boat that the buyer changed their mind.
2. stabilized, for comfort
3. 4-5 ft draft (blue water cruising?)
4. consider some solar panels, just 'incase'
5. generator
6. reverse cycle A/Cs for comfort
7. water maker I suggest 12vt.
8. fridge (12/120vt) and separate 12vt freezer.
9. single or double engines (this subject has been debated 'until the cows come home'
10. number and type engines .... another subject that has been debated.
11. inverter of 'size'
12. 2 battery chargers incase one goes belly up, mid-Atlantic

Personally I would stay away from 8Ds only because of weight if YOU have to move them.
AGM batteries.

I had a nordhavn 46, single engine but, with a 'get home' on a very important separate shaft. If you are going to long distance cruise, pack a get home engine on a separate shaft. You might only get 3 knts but at least, you can maintain headway.
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Old 07-28-2020, 06:03 AM   #8
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Have learned to carry day signals and use them,Was told a terrible story of a jet skier who ran into a cruiser. Driver died and passenger lived incurring huge medical bills but at admiralty court cruiser paid out a percentage due to the absence of flying an anchor ball. Maybe urban legend. But on a sailboat it takes a second to unfold the black plastic ball and bungy to a jib sheet. Think I bought at island water world. What do you guys do?
There’s alot I don't know. Beebe talks of A/B ratios. Sailors talk about comfort quotients. That doesn’t t bug me much but what I can’t get my mind around is the absence of Gz curves and published angle of vanishing stability for any of the trawlers I’m interested in. We looked at Diesel Ducks and Seahorse (grp). Went as far as talking to the yard. When asked about stability numbers they kindly referred me to a Chinese lady NA who sent along totally incomprehensible numbers
So the question is
What numbers do you guys use to judge stability
AVS?
Time to recover from knockdown.
Righting arm?
How do you get them?

The other questions I have concern comfort. True storms are rare. Now with weather routers giving input by SSB and satphone rarer still but line squalls and Tstorms aren’t that rare and often hard to avoid. Sailboat design has undergone several changes in paradigm. Gone are the days of full keeled boats or splits rigs. There’s pretty much two schools for monohulls. Flat runs in the canoe body with no rocker that decrease wetted surface when on a slant and evolutions of the more traditional balanced hull. Chines are often employed with the first.
Particularly in steel you see hard chines. With the KKs you see a reverse curve particularly aft of the center of gravity. With the small Nordhavns that are in my budget and needs you see soft chines and diagonals. The Norhavns have much more top hamper to my eye.

What I don’t understand is talking to owners the scuttlebutt is the KKs roll more than the Ns. Totally don’t get that. Why? Had occasion to run GBs from Connecticut to Plymouth Ma. They rolled enough to knock out your teeth. Couldn’t use the upper helm comfortably. What do you guys look at to judge comfort and ability to safely move around in a seaway?
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Old 07-28-2020, 06:06 AM   #9
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Welcome aboard, Doc. You're up when the questions get around to medical and what stuff to carry in the first aid kit. Actually, you can hit the search button to see what has gone on before here. You have plenty of bluewater experience, but does that include the distaff side of the boat and is that your preferred environment?
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Old 07-28-2020, 06:21 AM   #10
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As I recall..... the A/B ratio is the weight above the water line compared to the weight below the water line. Don't take my word, look it up in your copy of Chapman's.
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Old 07-28-2020, 06:23 AM   #11
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OD thanks all good thoughts. Have taken to the belt and suspenders approach. Current boat has 2 D400 wind generators.
Solar on top of hard dodger
Oversized alternator with spare
Each charging source has its own charging regulator and functions independently.
Spectra extreme water maker
Frigiboat freezer and frig on separate compressors and circuits
AC with reverse heat and Webasto furnace wit hydraulic heat.
AP and Hydrovane giving emergency rudder
3000 invertor.
Northern Lights 8 kw
etc.
I know on a cruising sailboat to carry one of everything and 3 spares with tools to install. I don’t know what folks consider key spares on a trawler.
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Old 07-28-2020, 06:29 AM   #12
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It’s the bride that’s driving the conversion to power. Happy wife....happy life.

Is there something like sailboatdata.com for trawlers? Where a good place to look to get the real poop?

Have boards in neurology, stroke, neuro-epidemiology, and sleep medicine. Welcome questions requiring generic answers or knowledge. One of things moving me to power is due to the failure of the current administration and federal government to act in concordance to science we are now unwelcome through much of the world.
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Old 07-28-2020, 07:24 AM   #13
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[QUOTE=Hippocampus;905081

Have boards in neurology, stroke, neuro-epidemiology, and sleep medicine. Welcome questions requiring generic answers or knowledge. One of things moving me to power is due to the failure of the current administration and federal government to act in concordance to science we are now unwelcome through much of the world.[/QUOTE]

Doc, being unwelcome through much of the world is not necessarily a bad thing.
If these overseas tourists would just stay away from us, that would be fine too.
We know the initial infection of C19 was not the US.
I will say two things and then I am done.
1. Should have closed the borders sooner, to ALL people. A total lockdown.
2. A decision was made to force the reopening too soon.
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Old 07-28-2020, 07:25 AM   #14
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GB hard chines are the reason I did little open water transiting in my 42.

If doing long open water transits in your soft-chined trawler, carry about the same sort of spares you did when sailing. For USA ICW work on a single engine boat, less, and for a twin, far less.

Careful about any hint of your political thoughts here - it never ends well. And firearms "discussion" was banned about a decade or more ago here.
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Old 07-28-2020, 07:27 AM   #15
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No biggie...just a heads up...


One thing strictly adhered to here is no politics in boat threads.... in fact ....pretty much no where on the forum.



The is a separate section for COVID related discussions.
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Old 07-28-2020, 07:56 AM   #16
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Noted. Didn’t think that was political. Just a statement as to why cruising plans have changed.
I was mostly on GB Europas and have very little experience with them. Any opinions on flopperstoppers versus active fins?.
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Old 07-28-2020, 08:01 AM   #17
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Noted. Didnít think that was political. Just a statement as to why cruising plans have changed.
I was mostly on GB Europas and have very little experience with them. Any opinions on flopperstoppers versus active fins?.
If you are moving away from pulling sheets to turning a key because of your age, then I would suggest you stay away from deploying wired fins rather than hitting a NAID button.
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Old 07-28-2020, 08:06 AM   #18
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OD thanks all good thoughts. Have taken to the belt and suspenders approach. Current boat has 2 D400 wind generators.
Solar on top of hard dodger
Oversized alternator with spare
Each charging source has its own charging regulator and functions independently.
Spectra extreme water maker
Frigiboat freezer and frig on separate compressors and circuits
AC with reverse heat and Webasto furnace wit hydraulic heat.
AP and Hydrovane giving emergency rudder
3000 invertor.
Northern Lights 8 kw
etc.
I know on a cruising sailboat to carry one of everything and 3 spares with tools to install. I donít know what folks consider key spares on a trawler.
Doc, just move all the equipment over to your trawler and you are over 90% finished. LOL
I forgot to suggest, SCUBA equipment and/or a Hooka

Spare part above what you mentioned, LOTS of fuel filters, spare water pumps.
Beyond this, cruise for a year and you will figure it out and add more.
I am not so sure about a spare rudder, on a trawler.
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Old 07-28-2020, 01:55 PM   #19
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As I recall..... the A/B ratio is the weight above the water line compared to the weight below the water line. Don't take my word, look it up in your copy of Chapman's.
Correction - A/B ratio is area above vs below water when viewed from abeam the boat.

To the good Dr. H - When I first read your post, I immediately thought of Dashew's FPB line of ocean-going boats. They are bigger than you're stated desire, but they would likely impress you given Dashew's migration from performance sail to power over 20-years ago. Plus, he is a prolific writer on all things technical - an example of his writing on stability.

I too picked 1500 nm for range. In an earlier phase of life, I was a delivery skipper out of San Francisco who delivered powerboats along the Pacific Coast, occasionally to Florida. It's a good range not because there aren't places to take-on fuel along the way, but it reduces planning and therefore opens options, and allows wholesale purchase of fuel in many places.

If your concern about +50-footer is docking, I'd encourage you to re-think. Many higher-end boats have multiple docking stations and very robust hydraulic bow/stern thrusters. I remember delivering a Nordhavn 57 to Florida and dropped a line handler in Colon. The boat had a stern-station in the cockpit so I simply backed-down a narrow fairway designed and got the stern within a foot of the seawall where the handler stepped off and we headed out and north. It looked impressive, but truth is, I've seen novice drivers do similar without busting a sweat. I only mention this because 40-50 feet gets a little cramped with all the stores, gear, and equipment needed for a full time liveaboard with long range cruising desires.

A cautionary story: While the number of people who convert from Sail to Power are numerous, and the reverse is unusual, it's not rare. I delivered a boat to Cabo for a lifelong sailor (had owned a couple Valiants) who had a new Nordhavn 57 built for him. It was my last delivery before re-entering Corporate America in 2004. A year later, he sold the Nordhavn and had something a Valiant 50 built.

A lot of sailors seem to like twin engine boats for redundancy. So that's an important decision. Speed is another - is 170 nms/day (7-kts) okay, which is what a 45-footer with 1500 nm range will do? The Nordhavn 57 ran close to 220. The Dashew designs run well over 250 in all weather. Makes a big difference as you know from your sailing days. And of course budget comes into play.

Final recommendation is Ken's Blog. I've been reading him for 15+ years. He was some sort of Software guru who retired early and bought a boat (also a Nordhavn) and has been all over the world. He's on his third boat - this one a new Grand Banks that he will do the Loop in. But he's an amazing writer, very prolific, and extremely transparent in his decision making. He had a long series of articles on selecting hydraulic fins vs gyro. Another series on selecting a generator - dual vs single, sizing, etc. He takes a very practical approach.

I've mentioned Nordhavn a lot here and they're good boats, but there are many others. I was based on the West Coast, and PAE was based on West Coast, thus I came to know them pretty well at the time. My tastes run to more simple boats.

Good luck and thanks for finding TF. I'm looking forward to learning from your experience. I'm guessing you have some decent wx/route planning in the Caribbean.

Peter
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Old 07-28-2020, 02:30 PM   #20
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Welcome Dr. H. Figured neurology based on your user name. I won't ask your opinion on the new bilateral superior field loss on a 74 year old diabetic I saw this morning...


I moved form sail to power. Based on your experience you will find the transition to power an easy one. I don't know the blue water power vessels well enough to offer an opinion but here are a few things to consider...


No power boat will be as comfortable in heavy weather as a sailboat.
No power boat has an adequate rudder compared to a sailboat.

You will get about 25-30% more usable living space in a power boat per foot boat-length vs a sailboat.
If you are very concerned about stability figures you may be thinking about this all wrong. When the weather is going to be rough, don't go. Again, sailboats are much better in bad weather.
If you want a blue water boat and expect to use it as such, get stabilization. I would recommend active if you can afford it.


Again welcome. Your experience on the water gives you lots that you can share with us.
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