Power Cats - interesting article

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

mvweebles

Guru
Joined
Mar 21, 2019
Messages
7,242
Location
United States
Vessel Name
Weebles
Vessel Make
1970 Willard 36 Trawler
This 3-yr old article was recently posted on CruisersForum. Good article on passagemaking power cats. Domino is heavily discussed ("along with Dashews FPB, a "super passagemaker" class") with a good link at the end. I still shake my head that it took so long to sell Domino (cudos to Klee Wyck for taking the plunge)

https://bluenomads.blog/2019/09/20/long-range-power-catamarans/

Peter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: FWT
This 3-yr old article was recently posted on CruisersForum. Good article on passagemaking power cats. Domino is heavily discussed ("along with Dashews FPB, a "super passagemaker" class") with a good link at the end. I still shake my head that it took so long to sell Domino (cudos to Klee Wyck for taking the plunge)

https://bluenomads.blog/2019/09/20/long-range-power-catamarans/

Peter.

There can be a range of views on anything of course, but my view is that Domino is the single best purchase of equipment I have ever made for sure.
Where the goal is safe and efficient long-range cruising it is hard to imagine a better theoretical platform if you are looking for boat and not bling.
I was and remain interested in the FPB concept and think it is a sound concept.
But, what makes it a good concept in my view is the efficiency of high L:B, giving up volume for length in pursuit of speed and efficiency, along with excellent seakeeping. Best I have seen though is 4:1 so not even close to the 12:1 on a powercat like Domino. In addition, the wide stance and bridge deck high off the water make for a safe, stable ride without moving parts.
The irony of the difficulty the PO had in selling her is that I literally could have sold her 10 times in the ensuing 12 months. The unsolicited inquiries continue to this day.
Different strokes, but she suits us.
 

Attachments

  • IMG-8233.jpg
    IMG-8233.jpg
    94.2 KB · Views: 57
My sense was the challenge with selling Domino was her single head layout. While I understand the concern, a thoroughly addressable issue I'd imagine. Also, if she'd been for sale in a more accessible yachting center. But in the end, I don't think many people are that interested in passagemaking style of cruising. Certainly in North America, power cats are an anomaly which made her attractively priced. Sum is I am not surprised you are in awe of the boat regardless of price.

BTW - impressive as a carport!

Peter
 
Will Domino be used on passages to take advantages of it’s amazing range?
 
My sense was the challenge with selling Domino was her single head layout. While I understand the concern, a thoroughly addressable issue I'd imagine. Also, if she'd been for sale in a more accessible yachting center. But in the end, I don't think many people are that interested in passagemaking style of cruising. Certainly in North America, power cats are an anomaly which made her attractively priced. Sum is I am not surprised you are in awe of the boat regardless of price.

BTW - impressive as a carport!

Peter

Peter, you are correct in assuming that the second head issue was not hard to solve and has been addressed.

To Bowball, DOMINO has crossed the Pacific three times, is unlikely to do so again on our watch, but I expect will do so again at some point. There and back on one fill of clean fuel.
 
Anyone interested in a boat of similar size and range as Domino, the Catalyst (ex Delilah Sue) is now for sale. I spent 2 years upgrading all systems, then cruising her on the Gulf Coast and Bahamas. We bought this boat as a three way partnership and it seems everyone is now heading in other directions. This is a great boat that would be hard to duplicate for over $1,000,000.


https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2004-alwoplast-crowther-8285125/
 
Thanks Peter - that's my article :flowers:.

It does need some updating, as there are more and more boats coming out, many that continue the efficient CS (canoe stern) from Malcolm Tennant rather than aiming for the charter market: new ones from Longreach, sales of big things and smaller. Of course lots of interest in hybrid and electric, electric, and more electric since the hull form and efficiency is probably one of the best matches for that use for smaller vessels.
 
Thanks Peter - that's my article :flowers:.



It does need some updating, as there are more and more boats coming out, many that continue the efficient CS (canoe stern) from Malcolm Tennant rather than aiming for the charter market: new ones from Longreach, sales of big things and smaller. Of course lots of interest in hybrid and electric, electric, and more electric since the hull form and efficiency is probably one of the best matches for that use for smaller vessels.
Cool! A friend bought a 2014 Horizon 52 PC. Not exactly a pasaagemaker, but does have some decent range. Sounds like Horizon has a decent step-up program with dedicated owners. The PC52 with 700g of diesel is an entry level PC at close to $2m.

Good article. Thanks for the contribution.

Peter
 
Cool! A friend bought a 2014 Horizon 52 PC. Not exactly a pasaagemaker, but does have some decent range. Sounds like Horizon has a decent step-up program with dedicated owners. The PC52 with 700g of diesel is an entry level PC at close to $2m.

Good article. Thanks for the contribution.

Peter

Peter,
I think these days a PC52 from Horizon starts around 2.5m before options and it is really a vastly different vessel than something like a Malcom Tennant that stays true to form.
The PC52 is luxurious with vast accommodations in the hulls. Therefore, the hulls and bridge deck must take on a very different shape than a Tennant CS hull. There is a price to be paid for that in terms what impresses me about a vessel like DOMINO, but DOMINO pays a price in terms of what make a Horizon good at what it does. Very different boats.
 
I am going to beat a dead horse here, but....

To expound upon the difference referred to in the prior post I have attached four images of the hull(s)profile showing where and how these two vessels (the PC52 and DOMINO) might impact the water (and therefore describe the motion of the vessel) when sailing to weather. One photo is the PC52 and the other three are DOMINO. Both boats good at what they do I expect, but designed to do different things, I think.

Tennant was committed to drawing hulls that excelled at sailing TO weather. I think this was also a large part of the impetus for the FPB as well.
The result is a pair of hulls on a Tennant that build and decay reserve buoyancy at very moderate rates as they encounter a wave until encountering the bridge deck which sits far above the water. Then when nearing that point where the water will impact the bridge deck there is the center divider which has the effect of making that impact more gradual by creating a pair of trapped air 'cushions' that keep the impact from being severe. I have never heard this hull slap which is quite common in most cats I suspect.
One of these vessels pictured will experience slap and heave when head seas are less than two feet and one of them will not.
We generally discuss the Tennant hulls in terms of speed and efficiency, but I have been perhaps more impressed by their effect on comfort when sailing to weather. In the last image I have added a blue line and a red line. The point here is that if you are landing on the next wave, better to land on it at the angle in the blue line than at the angle in the red line. Much less violent impact.
An ordinary vessel can tack or turn and run when conditions deteriorate in head seas, but in my experience, DOMINO can stay her course to weather in comfort and without pitching over quite a range of sea states.
So, you get the wide stance for protection from motion in beam seas and her length and hull form for the same in head seas. Roll and pitch and I think to a greater degree for pitch.
To be sure, the PC52 can create very plush and spacious accommodations below deck by using the room created by bringing that deck much closer to the waterline and spreading the cabins into that space. You do not get that on DOMINO so there is very little space down in those hulls except for far aft where the machinery spaces are.
 

Attachments

  • PC52.jpg
    PC52.jpg
    95.4 KB · Views: 33
  • 122783906_10221089629608459_7285186405713521070_n.jpg
    122783906_10221089629608459_7285186405713521070_n.jpg
    53.1 KB · Views: 36
  • 150236068_10221938224582803_8124665885045767925_n.jpg
    150236068_10221938224582803_8124665885045767925_n.jpg
    41.7 KB · Views: 33
  • sea impact angle.jpg
    sea impact angle.jpg
    90.2 KB · Views: 34
Klee Wyck - my only point in referencing the Horizon PC52 was because the author of the article chimed-in and noted several additions to the PC field. Having spent some quality time on a PC52, I can tell you it's a luxurious boat which while I appreciate, is about as far from our style as possible. Just not how we roll - guessing Domino would be more our style as we are pretty utility-driven.

Part of the reason my friend went with a Power Cat was his wife suffers horribly from seasickness. Well, the ride on his PC52 isn't great - he really prefers a stabilized monohull to the jerkiness of his PC. It's fairly efficient in relative terms - burns about 36-38 gph/18-20 kts (load dependent - picks up a couple knots as the tanks burn-down). We've also run it at 8-kts and she gets an honest 7 gph with her twin 435hp Cummins. She carries 700 gals of diesel but the tanks are oddly laid-out so not sure how much is usable (one tank is laid horizontal, the other is vertical - they do not balance well at all, something they've changed on subsequent hulls).

However, I can tell you my friend genuinely loves the boat. He received several offers well above what he paid for it 5-years ago and turned them down. He likes the pizzazz of having a shiney yacht with multiple ice machines and iPad controls with 4 TVs (I have exactly zero TVs). To each their own.

I really like your boat (have liked all your boats). Someday, would love to get a tour of her.

Peter
 
We were fortunate enough to meet the owners of Domino in La Paz when they stopped there and were offered a tour of the boat, amazing boat , the size and space, the single head would be no problem.

I’ve owned 3 powercats although not of this size, and really liked them, however just returned to a monohull, a classic Bertram 38 for our use in La Paz. Someday, maybe a boat like Domino, who knows!
 
The original article was supposed to be about options for long range cruising (a la Beebe) powercats.

I do have some other articles on powercat fuel efficiency as well as cruising powercats (part 1) and part 2 in general. Again, a bit dated and need to be brought uptodate...
 
Agree - no dead horse, appreciate the knowledgeable discussion.

I like the moniker "Super Passagemaker" with examples being FPB and Domino. In the past, I've suggested a term like "Coastal Passagemaking" to define aggressive trekking such as Alaska to Maine, but no ocean crossing - longest hops are in the 500-700 nm range, though range between fuel stops may be much greater (1000-1500 nms).

I haven't read Beebes VUP in years so am a bit rusty on his specific guidance, and to some extent it was tilted a bit in the Leishman update I last read. But I do recall my Willard 36 had a modest mention, and I would not consider my boat a full-on passagemaker in the same vein as a Nordhavn, but I also wouldn't consider the older KK42 to be comparable to Nordhavn either. Although my old Willard and the older KKs have crossed oceans, they do not have the same scantlings of Nordhavn. They also don't protect against down-flooding the way comparable Nordhavn designs do, at least contemporary boats when VUP was published. They are fantastic examples of coastal passagemakers.

Back to power cats, if you accept some middling category of coastal passagemaking, there are quite a few options. McArthur's Part 1 & 2 links in his last post would fall into this type of category. As would the Horizon PCs. I see the PC52 now carries 960 gals diesel. These boats have a strong following and are actively cruised along the eastern seaboard down into the Caribbean. It's a luxury niche with heavy use of marinas and delivery skippers to reposition boats.

https://horizonpowercatamarans.com/our-yachts/

Not comparing to a hard-core passagemaker like Domino - she's sort of in a category of her own. But am pointing out that PCs are a hidden market. McArthurs second and third articles point that out well.

Peter
 
Last edited:
Haven’t done passage on power cats so statements refer to sail. However the sea is the sea. Very much like tenant and tenant derived hulls.
Three things I’ve noticed. First, cats have a tendency to stall. Those with thin hulls, both above and below the waterline, do it less. Those with the bridge deck starting farther aft do it less. Those where there the bridge deck has insufficient clearance above the dynamic waterline do it more. Even when the boat doesn’t stop completely it’s unpleasant. Example of a good offshore design preventing this is a Outremer or Catana. Bad the production charter cats used in the Caribbean fleets.
Cats have a tendency to hobby horse. Those of sufficient length and fine entries and exits do it less. Both to achieve adequate form stability and mitigate this behavior for ocean work I think loa of at least 45’ is needed.
Cats may “burp”. By this mean capture air under the deck which once is sufficient in pressure be expelled forward. This can be unpleasant. Seems to be mitigated by the vestigial third “hull” under the bridge deck which also has other benefits in improving interior space, weight distribution, and ride.
All three issues seem much easier to avoid in a tri. Efficiency may be the same or better. Pitchpoling risk the same or better. Ride into a wave train as good or better. Surfing risk as good or better. Unfortunately all at the expense of usable space.
One of the issues with any light displacement vessel, be it mono tri or cat, is they float on the water not in it. Unfortunately they have a tendency to move not only with the swell but also the wind waves. Light monos usually have the ability to mitigate this annoying motion with gyro, Magnus, fins or fish but none are usually applicable to multis. Again if the multi has fine enough hulls and is long enough motion is improved without detriment to efficiency. But again at the expense of usable space.

One concern I have with any multi is engine and steering access. Often there is none except through access hatches from the deck not the interior. Several sailing multis, including a Gunboat, have gotten into very serious trouble because of this. In a seaway it maybe impractical and downright dangerous to try to access those spaces. Not only risk to crew but also down flooding risk.
 
Last edited:
I've never run a powercat, but I am interested in them as they have obvious advantages. I did a quick tour of a beautiful Leopard 43 this summer and was impressed. One negative thing I have heard a few times about them though is that they have a very uncomfortable "snap" motion in beam seas.



Can y'all comment on that?



Thanks.
 
And I imagine they aren’t popular in the Med as they would be charged mooring fees like a super yacht given the beam!
 
I've never run a powercat, but I am interested in them as they have obvious advantages. I did a quick tour of a beautiful Leopard 43 this summer and was impressed. One negative thing I have heard a few times about them though is that they have a very uncomfortable "snap" motion in beam seas.



Can y'all comment on that?



Thanks.
I have been aboard my friends Horizon PC52 for about 500 nms on trips in Gulf of Mexico between Dry Tortugas/Key West up through Cedar Key 100 nms north of Tampa Bay. Beam seas are pretty common though haven't been out in anything more than about 5-footers, and even those are avoided so rare for him. I'd characterize the ride as a bit jerky, sort of how NY subway trains rock to and froe. As mentioned upthread, he bought a PC because his wife suffers from seasickness. She still gets seasick. Although he loves the boat, he prefers the ride of a stabilized monohull trawler. He likes the speed and opulence of the Horizon PC52.

The ride is different but not objectionable unless you want it to be. If the expectation is a PC flattens the seas, well, it doesn't. A PC and a trawler are much more similar than a sailing catamaran and a monohull. I may not be the best judges but i have not detected many of the issues Hippocampus notes on sail cats.

They are worthy of consideration. A lot to be said for PCs.

Peter
 
Last edited:
One concern I have with any multi is engine and steering access. Often there is none except through access hatches from the deck not the interior. Several sailing multis, including a Gunboat, have gotten into very serious trouble because of this.

I'd love to learn more about this - anything publicly available?
 
A Covid dockmate had a horizon 52 pc. His previous boat was a Fleming 55. After Covid he sold the pc and bought another Fleming. Reasons cited were seaworthiness difficulty getting dock space and haul outs. When he bought the horizon he got me interested in cats to the point I almost built one. In the end many of the issues brought up by hippocampus were beyond compromise for my wife and I.
 
Greetings,
Apologies for the slight? thread drift...Will start new thread.


Actively looking for a power cat (outboards) in the 28' to 34' range (Glacier Bay, World Cat, Arrowcat) with cash in hand. Agreed that the inboard PC's suffer from skin tight ER spaces. Other than differences in handling, I haven't heard too much negative about "sport" cats (for want of a better description).
 
Greetings,
Apologies for the slight? thread drift...Will start new thread.


Actively looking for a power cat (outboards) in the 28' to 34' range (Glacier Bay, World Cat, Arrowcat) with cash in hand. Agreed that the inboard PC's suffer from skin tight ER spaces. Other than differences in handling, I haven't heard too much negative about "sport" cats (for want of a better description).

RT,
My brother just bought a C-Dory Tomcat. Listed as a 26, it measures just over 30 tip to tail. Quite a bit of room and well equipped. Seems like a helluva 'sport cat' and I am looking forward to some time on it this weekend. They are rare, but worth a look. 200+ for a new build.
 
A Covid dockmate had a horizon 52 pc. His previous boat was a Fleming 55. After Covid he sold the pc and bought another Fleming. Reasons cited were seaworthiness difficulty getting dock space and haul outs. When he bought the horizon he got me interested in cats to the point I almost built one. In the end many of the issues brought up by hippocampus were beyond compromise for my wife and I.

Here is some data from the most recent of three Transpacs that Domino has made. Oahu to Cabo. Uphill to wind and current all the way. Some days near 300 NM covered.
To compare here seaworthiness unfavorably to a Fleming seems almost.....well, silly.

By the numbers:
Distance: 2,661 NM
Time: 10 days, 18 hours
Average speed: 10.3 kts
Fuel used: 2,000 Gal.
Reserve: 600 Gal.
 

Attachments

  • fullsizeoutput_187f.jpeg
    fullsizeoutput_187f.jpeg
    126.7 KB · Views: 23
Here is some data from the most recent of three Transpacs that Domino has made. Oahu to Cabo. Uphill to wind and current all the way. Some days near 300 NM covered.
To compare here seaworthiness unfavorably to a Fleming seems almost.....well, silly.

By the numbers:
Distance: 2,661 NM
Time: 10 days, 18 hours
Average speed: 10.3 kts
Fuel used: 2,000 Gal.
Reserve: 600 Gal.

Impressive!
With experience on a Fleming 55, I’d absolutely have to agree with you re blue water performance. Not the mission for the 55. You know the PNW well, but I think you keep Domino in the Sea of Cortez? For the PNW I’d take the 55 though personally as a matter of preference.
 
Peter-think just like with monos there’s major differences in a blue water multi and coastal. Very striking in powercats. Been on and have watched sailing cats and tris. Most noticeable is behavior difference between those cats where useable interior volume in the hulls is maximized to allow berthing, heads, lockers.in all four corners of the hulls. Commonly seen in charter cats. They typically have fixed keels not daggeboards or centerboards. Hulls are beaming even toward the ends.bridge decks are lower as well.this is great as they are palaces inside with lots of room and can tolerate greater weight aboard. Ocean sailing cats seem to tend to have very little house in front of the mast and not much bridge deck up there either. Sometimes they have asymmetric hulls as well. My limited observations have been noted by and supported by those more knowledgeable and experienced. I don’t think I posted anything outside the orthodoxy concerning this subject. Perhaps things are different in power but I suspect not. Perhaps those with more knowledge or experience or both than me can chime in.
Think and hope there will be more interest in power multis. Especially for long term open ocean cruising. Seems as folks get more concerned about range and efficiency they have so much to offer. A side benefit is the real estate for solar.
 
Domino is clearly an example of a beautifully designed and executed blue water cat. It’s a totally different beast than a charter power cat.
 
Here's the rub: Passagemaking PCs are even more rare than Passagemaking Monohulls. Domino is a one-off, and there are a few others, mostly squirreled away down-under. But there are many, many options on the PC-front for coastal boats, from PDQs, to Leopards, to the Horizon PC I've spent quite a bit of time aboard. Leopards, built in South Africa, are routinely delivered to the Caribbean on their own bottow with deck-fuel. Surprises me, but it's not uncommon. Just something I wouldn't do.

I was unable to find a bow-on picture of my friend's PC52 on haul-out. Somewhere I have it, but can't find it. Its a fairly fine entry as I recall as the bows are tall and flare above waterline, not unlike the general way Domino's hulls are formed. But I also suspect (with no real knowledge) that Cats need to be fairly sizeable - even 52-feet is a bit stubby.

It would not be my first choice to make a serious coastal passage, and planning would depend on how fast I could run. These boats can make 200-mile days fairly efficiently, which puts a lot of legs in play for one, maybe a second overnight.

Not my cup of tea, but good boats. It's good to see people asking about Power Cats. There is a lot to recommend them, even the coastal versions that predominate.

Peter
 
Here's the rub: Passagemaking PCs are even more rare than Passagemaking Monohulls. Domino is a one-off, and there are a few others, mostly squirreled away down-under. But there are many, many options on the PC-front for coastal boats, from PDQs, to Leopards, to the Horizon PC I've spent quite a bit of time aboard. Leopards, built in South Africa, are routinely delivered to the Caribbean on their own bottow with deck-fuel. Surprises me, but it's not uncommon. Just something I wouldn't do.

I was unable to find a bow-on picture of my friend's PC52 on haul-out. Somewhere I have it, but can't find it. Its a fairly fine entry as I recall as the bows are tall and flare above waterline, not unlike the general way Domino's hulls are formed. But I also suspect (with no real knowledge) that Cats need to be fairly sizeable - even 52-feet is a bit stubby.

It would not be my first choice to make a serious coastal passage, and planning would depend on how fast I could run. These boats can make 200-mile days fairly efficiently, which puts a lot of legs in play for one, maybe a second overnight.

Not my cup of tea, but good boats. It's good to see people asking about Power Cats. There is a lot to recommend them, even the coastal versions that predominate.

Peter

Peter, I am obviously failing to communicate.
I wish I could find a video of the phenomenon of a Tennant CS hull in a sea way. I will try images.

When a vessel encounters a rising sea in its path I have tried to depict the forces in the line drawing below for three general hull types: my Tennant hull, my round bilged full displacement monohull, and a generic semi-displacement hull.
I have also included another out of water picture of the DOMINO hull to show not just the entry, but the fact that this 'fineness' is continued down the length of the hull nearly all the way aft. The short flat section aft does not impact motion at displacement speeds, but is enough to cause some lift at speeds over 14 knots. (displaning??)

I think you can imagine that a sea can rise and fall under the Tennant hull without moving the boat much since there is little to push on suddenly. Buoyancy increases gently and often the wave has passed before the boat heaves at all.
The full displacement takes more vertical force from the rising water but by design uses weight to resist this to some extent pushing aside large quantities of water which limits speed and efficiency. My 136000# displacement hull will rise and fall in 5-foot seas much more than the Tennant hull but it is a fairly gentle heave in relative terms compared to a lighter flatter hull.
You can imagine the forces on the flatter hull in a five-foot head sea.
I like to say this:
The sea rises and falls around the Tennant hull, while the displacment hull rises and fall upon the sea.
If I had a decent video of us underway you could see the sea level rising and falling above and below the resting water line to the tune of 2-3 feet while the vessel remains almost vertically motionless.

I will be truthful here though; I could never have imagined this on the day I bought this boat. I sort of understood the principle as it had been discussed, but I bought her without knowing for certain what I was looking at.
Tennant is not the only player here and this concept is far from one off. Roger Hill is another example among several others.
 

Attachments

  • 2764641_de46b597_40.jpg
    2764641_de46b597_40.jpg
    154.7 KB · Views: 23
  • Force of rising sea.jpg
    Force of rising sea.jpg
    41.9 KB · Views: 21
Back
Top Bottom