Power Cats - interesting article

[Blue Yonder]

It is the design brief around an alloy monohull that I really lust after.

She's up for sale: https://www.devalk.nl/en/yachtbrokerage/803699/VRIPACK-NED-70.html

Beautiful looking vessel.

 

[long-cours.62]

Yes I looking

Domino could well have weighed 22T coming out of the yard-likely did.
But autonomy, as required for passage, required fuel, provisions, and spare parts. Domino carries 12 tons of fuel alone which will drop her waterline by a full foot.

There is no free lunch here due to laws of physics. Your Long-course takes advantage of high LB ratio and low LDLin its hull form, And, it is made of a great light weight material.

However there is really no way a monohull with an LB around 4 is going to compete with one with an LB of 12 in terms of ease through the water. Beyond that, energy lost is also a function of wave making and weight will play a major role there. The 'stuff' you need for passage making adds up to considerable weight even where build materials have been considered carefully.

You could think of DOMINO as a 65-foot boat. The reality in terms of volume and weight is that she is a 52-foot boat on 130 feet of hull. That is what result in fast and efficient in my view.

If this link below works, it is worth a read. It is the design brief around an alloy monohull that I really lust after. But, I do not expect it would be as efficient as DOMINO.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjWs9Pd35z6AhV_IDQIHdjAD0sQFnoECAoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boatdesign.net%2Fattachments%2F6245-ned70-press-proboat2014-pdf.98440%2F&usg=AOvVaw2R4Tux1CRE_GFkSJjHr6Y6

YMMV

at the need 70 but the asking price is far higher than the amount we could receive for the sale of our actual Trawler 72 .( and the gap is even more when "customer" offer 290k€ for our )
For the Neel 70 they can't give more detail concerning the structure because his weight look "very" light for a 70' (same than our LC62').
I thing Need will be difficult to sale because 3 cabin but two look like 13m catamaran cabin, no storage for tender (they said on the aft top of the cabin...) not even a crane, the inside helm position ( when used by a couple) not useful : no exit door must walk ( run ? ) to the aft..., i like big U shaped saloon here only two seat facing.ANd also this hull without "skeeg, keel etc) what will be her move in case of failure of the stab !? near nothing to damp the roll ?
May be he will not have more success than the Velder 63 I follow during year or his brother the Velder 75

But if they decrease (a lot !!) the price sure I could be interested because : not too beamy, very small draft, not huge engine .


To going back to Domino : fast is right , efficiency also at, higher speed but at "trawler " speed he is just comparable to Long-cours 62 who was not an "extreme" boat like LRC 58, or Need 70 in term of L/D and L/B ratio


Since the sale of Long-cours 62 I "design" some more "extreme" 19.90x 4.70 and 26T ( save weight on ballast ,( by lowering ton of cabin it mean same stability), save weight on the hul decrease from 10 to 8 and from 12 to 10, no dagger box, no side board, lighter arrangements, chain from 14mm normal to 12 hight tensible etc etc

 

[long-cours.62]

For the Need 780' I asked for consumption at 10 kts they don't know (I estimate at 20 lt ) but they said 26lt per our at 12 kts

It look good 2.1667 lt per nm at 12 kts

The Need for us could be the next one if ....$$$$$ :-((
The Velder 63 was for sale from around 2015 to the moment we could buy her;;; unfortunately a customer arrive just before us...for us the most important was : alloy, twin engine, and the overall size under 20m, beam under the limit of the French lock, draft 1.30m no more than LC62, weight under 30t... In another hand some thing must be changed (for example the hight and of the engine room air intake : at sea it is good to fill up the engine room or at less made a shower to the electric panel just behind .., the position of the windlass don't allow the use of the capstan and arrangement 3 seat at the table no real saloon no real shower etc it is why it take so long to sold her and most important why her price fall down on our range of price )

Velder 63

Velder 75

 

[long-cours.62]

Boatgm who post sometime here and built a fast light efficient tri, will built an exxxxtrem monohull.
If he still read here may be he will present his project .
I don't get news since he post that to us

 

[long-cours.62]

Longer Ligure

Thanks Peter - that's my article .

It does need some updating, as there are more and more boats coming out, many that continue the efficient CS (canoe stern) from Malcolm Tennant rather than aiming for the charter market: new ones from Longreach, sales of big things and smaller. Of course lots of interest in hybrid and electric, electric, and more electric since the hull form and efficiency is probably one of the best matches for that use for smaller vessels.

lower longer

 

[Hippocampus]

Even the C20m is one fine craft but a bit wide for efficiency. Can you think of North American builders following the LDL concept? Know Lyman Morse built one ages ago and Kanter has built a few. Anyone else?

 

[long-cours.62]

I saw one for sale

I saw one for sale in Canada , but we can't afford it , narrow, alloy, twin engine and ...seakeeper
68', I think I already post a photo of her here
forgot the name of the designer

 

[klee wyck]

I saw one for sale in Canada , but we can't afford it , narrow, alloy, twin engine and ...seakeeper
68', I think I already post a photo of her here
forgot the name of the designer

Whitacre Yacht Design, Hal Whitacre. I took a very close look at this ship before I bought DOMINO.

 

[long-cours.62]

also we

Whitacre Yacht Design, Hal Whitacre. I took a very close look at this ship before I bought DOMINO.

we even made an offer (at that time we also got an offer for our trawler).



If our level of offer was accepted we could accept the offer made for our trawler.
The only one we could afford was the Velder 63, need some adaptation to became a "passagemaker" but a base big enough for us.
Or of course the Santorini 65 if we known when he was auctioned

 

[bowball]

Whitacre Yacht Design, Hal Whitacre. I took a very close look at this ship before I bought DOMINO.

Expedition boat with 1,000 gallons of fuel tankage?

You did much better with Domino.

I’d be interested in a big FPB I think.

And thoughts for a boat to take around the rivers, canals, coasts of Europe?

 

[long-cours.62]

Maximum size to cross by French canal

beam 5.05, draft 1.60m, air draft 3.45...length ...39m

And advantage if the next season you want pass from Mediterranean to North sea don't need to make all around 2000nm but only 600 nm by canal and river save diesel $$$$ and also marina fee.
Unfortunately the French "Green" cancel the project to joint the river Rhone to the river Rhin for big sized barges to do the same job than barges we have more truck on the road and need far less energy to move 1 t by waterway than on the road some time green are not green at all

 

[mcarthur]

When we was in the project phase of "Long-cours 62" we thinking also power catamaran, we visited "Prometa" boatyard to see his Santorini 65 who was in the stage of building the hull.
Unfortunately the alloy hull of 65 feet was to expensive for us, he show to us the "Ligure 50" who was built as a project boat but we want something with a longer wl. We ask to Mr Fèvre for a "smaller "Santorini" at 60'...
Finally we don't find an accord on the hull price , but in my point of view the Santorini 65' it is one of the few who can challenge the consumption of a good monohull.

When I look at the graph posted by "Blue Ligure" forget the name
it seam very rare the catamaran who use 1lt per nm as the Santorini

Santorini 11 kts and 1.65lt nm or 18.15 lt per hour or 4.79 ul gallon per hour at 11kts

Santorini 65, our sister ship - https://bluenomads.blog/2020/01/24/an-aluminium-powercat/

Longer, wider, many differences. But we could get through the French (Dutch, and some German) canals . I'd still love to do the "European Loop", Rhine, over the top, Danube, quickly out the Black Sea , Med, then up the French canals... of even the super Loop, and go Baltic, Finland, St Petersburg, through the lakes and river, Murmansk, then down Norway, Kiel. Phew!

 

[Hippocampus]

Read a novel years ago about the Kiel canal. Can’t recall the title but is was a great read. Left me with a desire to boat it.

 

[Drako]

I'd still love to do the "European Loop", Rhine, over the top, Danube, quickly out the Black Sea , Med, then up the French canals... of even the super Loop, and go Baltic, Finland, St Petersburg, through the lakes and river, Murmansk, then down Norway, Kiel. Phew!

You'll have to wait for the regime change in Russia :-/


Would you expect to encounter ice when going around Norway?

 

[long-cours.62]

Why waiting

You'll have to wait for the regime change in Russia :-/


Would you expect to encounter ice when going around Norway?

The change of "regime" lot of pleasure boat already do the NE passage, lot of cross the Russia by river and canal.
For the NE the only condition : someone on board must speak Russian, could be you or one crew you choose.
In 2013 we apply to use the NE passage unfortunately in 2014 "my" French president, follow the injunction of Obama, cancel the contract for the two warship our demand was rejected, officially because we project to stop and stay in some Siberian town and village.

We never understood why always people who do this passage want do that quickest as possible, don't stop don't meet local people, some do the TWO passage in the same year : see nothing,


PS : Vladimir if you read that the next time we apply put the right stamp on our application form !

 

[klee wyck]

Flogging the horse here....

Every time I cruise DOMINO I am enchanted by her entry and how water flows down this displacement cat hull.

We returned from our last trip to SOC for the season recently and while cruising there I shot another short video of her hull at entry on a day we were straight into a 2' chop at around 11 knots.


Then last week I was returning LIBRA, our heavy displacement monohull from the boat show in Anacortes where the manufacturer was demonstrating her newly installed rotor stabilizers. I was struck by how different her entry is to DOMINO and by the turbulence that creates in comparison. This was at about 7.8 knots in pretty calm conditions. I shot a video of that, also linked here.

They are both boats, I thoroughly enjoy cruising them both and the idea of both, but really, can there be any argument about the efficiency difference here just based on how much water is moved? Both shots are of the entry.

https://youtu.be/siKo58aBGt0

https://youtu.be/NeObzvKO_FM

 

[long-cours.62]

No New from MC Arthur ? Nothing poster on his website from longtemps. Could be interesting to know the réal situation with the Ligure 50.

 

[cfr]

its a pity that there are not more cats like domino,...i just found iliad powercats, a australian thai setup and at least they have a good cat hull but they start at 1.8 mio eur for 52 ft. i am always torn between mono and cat. my heayy 44 ft mono is nice but a fast performance cat like a outremer 50 is nice too....now the med is flooded by floating condos of cats which combine all bad attributes, but selling easily to chartercompanies. travelling in norway or scotland with old concrete piers and many rocks i prefer metal, but sailing downwind in the Med or crossing to carib.......

 

[klee wyck]

I am cruising DOMINO on the British
Columbia Coast at the moment after bringing her up from Mexico. The word that keeps coming to mind for us is ‘liberating’. This vessels opens up some options we never previously had and in comfort.
I am in contact with a sister ship that was puchased on the east coast of US about 6 months ago named Achilles. Formerly Rhumba. She is down island Carribean underway, making for Grenada at the moment. They are just stacking the miles.

 

[cfr]

there are two interesting cat which you maybe will met in the North a 62
aluminum one https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2008-custom-62-catamaran-9157371/and the tennant awesome.....would be interested to get your opinion about the two

 

[klee wyck]

Carsten,
I have seen the aluminum cat on Yachtworld but not been aboard her. She is not my cup of tea so did not look closely. I think not in the same class as the Tennants.
I have been aboard the Tennant in Tacoma of the Awesome series. She is a bit older but seemed like still may have decent bones. For someone committed to a refit that would likely run over a million US$, and OK with the Yanmar mains, she may be worth a look. Not for us.

 

[cfr]

is the Tennant in Tacoma so bad, on the pictures she looks not too bad. yes the aluminum one is really special, actually i like the hull but the interior would need a total refit.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Having BOTH a monohull (1979 Penn Yan 23'SF single inboard) AND a cat' (2015 World Cat 2770 Glacier Bay Edition twin OB's) I can safely say the I very much prefer the cat for "ride" in sloppier conditions.
Not quite used to the cat' in beam seas yet but head seas or quartering? HAH! Piece of cake.

 

[long-cours.62]

there are two interesting cat which you maybe will met in the North a 62
aluminum one https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2008-custom-62-catamaran-9157371/and the tennant awesome.....would be interested to get your opinion about the two

Oops ! No the look is to strange and not so usefull with his big "tobogan" .
But you are right for the cat in med mainly " autobus a impreial" like London double deck !!
Yesterday all the catamaran we crossed before arrive in Gibraltar was like that "double deck" with an "aquarium" on the top My dream cata stay Santorini 65....in smaller size according of my walett size :-(
All this "double deck" cat we cross since one month they in French " plantaient des pieux" in very light swell ( ok all sailing cat under power may be due to the rigging / mast)

 

[long-cours.62]

Around 28 year ago we make some "delire/dream" with Joubert and later ( in 2003) Irens concerning à "power tri" something like this one but "only" 21x 7 m

OCEAN EAGLE 43 Trimaran Maritime Surveillance Vessel,

 

[hbl21]

There can be a range of views on anything of course, but my view is that Domino is the single best purchase of equipment I have ever made for sure.
Where the goal is safe and efficient long-range cruising it is hard to imagine a better theoretical platform if you are looking for boat and not bling.
I was and remain interested in the FPB concept and think it is a sound concept.
But, what makes it a good concept in my view is the efficiency of high L:B, giving up volume for length in pursuit of speed and efficiency, along with excellent seakeeping. Best I have seen though is 4:1 so not even close to the 12:1 on a powercat like Domino. In addition, the wide stance and bridge deck high off the water make for a safe, stable ride without moving parts.
The irony of the difficulty the PO had in selling her is that I literally could have sold her 10 times in the ensuing 12 months. The unsolicited inquiries continue to this day.
Different strokes, but she suits us.

I’ve found the bows to be a great place for a hammock down in the Caribbean and a break from sun

 

[klee wyck]

I’ve found the bows to be a great place for a hammock down in the Caribbean and a break from sun

For those not following on AIS, Bart on Achilles (formerly Rhumba and a sister ship to DOMINO) have been making miles down island in the Carribean. Starting on the east coast, the last leg was Aruba to Panama averaging 17 knots in comfort and style displaying what these Tennant cats are capable of in the open ocean. They will now enjoy some down time in the San Blas before transiting.
Safe travels to Achilles and her crew. Bravo.

 

[hbl21]

at some point we'll be up in your neck of way Bill! 2000nm under our belt so far and Tennant continues to impress. I'll try to upload a good video of 5 to 6 foot following seas but we did have a 30 hour crossing with head on 6 to 8 foot seas and 6 second periods and it was certainly uncomfortable for that long but at no point was anyone worried about the integrity of the boat, we just quartered as best we could and tried to tuck in the lee when we could. we were surfing 8 foot following seas to Aruba and doing between 17 and 25 knots averaging 1:1 or just slightly above. with a wider beam and 690 hp cummins she doesnt get the same efficiency as Domino but its still very impressive for a boat this size with a 25 foot beam. these boats like to go fast and when they do its smooth sailing and surprisingly efficient. After some continued refit work for the next month we'll be heading to san blas and then bocas del toro for some surf followed by the canal and up to Costa Rica and after that Domino's old stomping grounds the Sea of Cortez for a while.

 

[klee wyck]

Here is a snippet video of hbl21 and Achilles on the Aruba to Panama leg. Seems appropriate to me that he chose 'Freebird' as the background music! Down swell at high speed is just exhilarating on these things.

 

[darkside]

If you really want to go fast a Voodoo XF75 popped across the Tasman recently. 1170nm of open ocean in 36 hours.
The 22.8-metre power catamaran hit a top speed of 50.9 knots, cruising most of the trip at 35 to 36 knots