Nordhavn

[FF]

"My dream is something that can do the loop
can cruise SOME of the canals and rivers in Europe."

Most anything you can be comfortable on has done the loop.

Canoe, Outboard (going the "wrong way") IO, you name it, its been done .

The simplest would seem to be an outboard or IO, that could fit on a trailer.

This would allow the boat to be shipped on a RO-RO (roll on roll off) to Euroland at very low cost . Especially if you consider a $10,000 boat vs a $300,000+ boat

A vessel even with the scantlings to cross oceans have many compromises that harm the usual coastal cruising.
Much interior volume is required for fuel and water, spaces are smaller so its easier to move about underway , even with multiple hand grabs.
Get home engine or a genset adaption needs love and care and spare parts too.

None of this is a bother if the boat is 60+ , but down at 40 ft an ocean capable vessel is a compromise.

A smaller boat here , a different small boat there (with Euro electrics) also makes sense.

 

[Mako]

Dry stack exhaust is the dominant setup for most of the N line and I expect it will stay that way. There are pros and cons to both and personally I would be happy either way. My current boat is dry stack and I prefer it for this boat, but a well maintained wet system can be fine too.

Does your vessel have a grid cooler or is it raw water cooled with the dry exhaust?

 

[guy with a boat]

Does your vessel have a grid cooler or is it raw water cooled with the dry exhaust?

Keel cooler. The raw water stays on the outside.

 

[w8n4sun]

Keel cooler. The raw water stays on the outside.

What about generators? Are those part of the dry stack exhaust system?

 

[guy with a boat]

What about generators? Are those part of the dry stack exhaust system?

Just the main engine and gear have keel coolers. We still have lots of through hulls and raw water flowing to other equipment (gens, HVAC, hydraulics, etc). Our wing engine is a conventional heat exchanger/wet exhaust, so I'm able to keep my maintenance skills sharp with an occasional impeller change.



The dry stack concept doesn't avoid dealing with raw water, but it has advantages that are significant for the main engine application and aren't as relevant elsewhere in the boat.

 

[w8n4sun]

Got it, thanks for the education!

 

[woolf]

The dry stack concept doesn't avoid dealing with raw water, but it has advantages that are significant for the main engine application and aren't as relevant elsewhere in the boat.

The largest volume flow users of sea water are main engine(s), but generator(s) and airco require significant flow volumes as well.

With all those on closed circuit loops with hull coolers, only one central sea water inlet is needed, to feed watermaker and fire/deckwash pump, which is my preferred set-up.

 

[bigpoppop]

I bought a 55’ Nordhavn in 6/2016 for the purpose of using it for 2 years and then selling it. It was pretty much the only boat I considered because of the expected resale benefits. It worked out as expected- sold it for $10,000 less than I paid for it (let’s not discuss commissions, though [emoji20]).

It was my first boat and I’d never so much as anchored a boat before (nor had i ever been to sea). We loved the boat but understand that it’s a lot of work with lots of systems to tend to- the engineers love these boats- but they’re complex boats.

Having said that, we’d do it all over again and choose Nordhavn every time. Very well made with great support.

We went from SoCal to Alaska then down west coast and through Panama Canal to DR to Puerto Rico, T&C, Bahamas, FL, Maine, back down east coast to Miami and shipped it back to Ensenada. Cleaned it up there and sold it in 7/2018. Perfect!

Have fun- great boats!!

 

[darkside]

Bigpoppop that's a great attitude, buy a boat fit for purpose, do the trip, then sell it.
Far too many by the boat for the dream cruise in five years time or whenever and end up using the wrong boat locally forever.
We purchased our sailing cat for a circumnavigation, did the five years, and sold it. We loved the boat but not the right choice for mucking around the NZ coast.
We did the circumnavigation in 2001 to 2005 and the only "name brand" power boats we saw doing a similar trip were Nordhavn 62's and a 57. We met a delivery crew on the 57 in Dubrovnik. They had lost use of the stabilizers some time back and were not happy campers.

 

[Birdman]

They all depreciated before Covid. I expect they will depreciate after Covid as well.

Ain't that the truth!!! The current prices for used boats is out of control because a bunch of yahoo's with nothing to do during covid ran out and bought boats thinking that would give them the freedom taken away by covid. NOW they are about to find out how much it really costs to own a boat, and how much work they are to maintain, and how little they will actually use them, if any use at all!


Me thinks there will be a hell of a lot of used boats for sale, with dropping prices in the next 2 years. All these folks will be trying to dump them off...

 

[BluewaterN47]

If you're interested in Nordhavns, by all means take a look at the Nordhavn website at https://nordhavn.com/ and also at the Nordhavn Dreamers site which is also operated by Pacific Asian Industries, Nordhavn's builder.



I'm the chief moderator of the Nordhavn Owners Group (NOG) which is open only to those who own Nordhavns. The group been going since 2003 and I've held the top moderator job for more than a decade. Many of our members consider NOG to be one of the very best reasons to own a Nordhavn. With more than 800 members and about a dozen posts each day, we estimate that 90-95% of the world's Nordhavn owners belong to the group, and there's real camaraderie there--not to mention huge depth of Nordhavn experience which comes not only from other owners but also from our slate of expert members who weigh in frequently.



There is great value in owning a Nordhavn, and over the 16 years I've owned mine I'm come to understand that there's nothing like a Nordhavn! I'm just one of dozens (hundreds?) of Nordhavn owners who've crossed an ocean in my Nordhavn--and there are many who've circumavigated in theirs.



If you want to go to sea in a powerboat and begin doing your due diligence on proper seagoing powerboats, you'll find that the Nordhavn brand makes a lot of sense.



Milt Baker, Nordhavn 4732 Bluewater

 

[BluewaterN47]

I'm attaching an article on value in a cruising yacht that I wrote for Nordhavn's Circumnavigator magazine years ago. The idea was to try to define value as something more than dollar cost and return on investment.


Upon re-reading the article for the first time in years, I believe it's as applicable today as it was way back when I wrote it.


What do you think?


Milt Baker, Nordhavn 4732 Bluwater


View attachment Circumnavigator 2 Value Article.pdf

 

[twistedtree]

I bought a 55’ Nordhavn in 6/2016 for the purpose of using it for 2 years and then selling it. It was pretty much the only boat I considered because of the expected resale benefits. It worked out as expected- sold it for $10,000 less than I paid for it (let’s not discuss commissions, though [emoji20]).

It was my first boat and I’d never so much as anchored a boat before (nor had i ever been to sea). We loved the boat but understand that it’s a lot of work with lots of systems to tend to- the engineers love these boats- but they’re complex boats.

Having said that, we’d do it all over again and choose Nordhavn every time. Very well made with great support.

We went from SoCal to Alaska then down west coast and through Panama Canal to DR to Puerto Rico, T&C, Bahamas, FL, Maine, back down east coast to Miami and shipped it back to Ensenada. Cleaned it up there and sold it in 7/2018. Perfect!

Have fun- great boats!!

One of the most common pieces of advice given to new boaters is to start small and build up your skills. And when someone says they are going to buy a boat tomorrow and do the Big U (Alaska to Maine), they got shot down and dismissed as ignorant fools.


Well, we should all take pause because BigPopPop did just that, and completely pulled it off. I remember meeting him and his family within the first month or so of their departure. He was all questions and all ears with anyone and everyone. And I remember talking to Mrs PopPop who seemed VERY uncertain about the whole thing, but was going along to be a good sport.


Some time later I got email from BigPopPop who was in the DR if I recall, and had a main engine water pump problem. I think I advised flying someone in with experience to fix it. Nope, he dug right in and fixed it himself and was on his way.


Then I think after the conclusion to their trip I saw Mrs PopPop again at a Nordhavn gathering and she was gushing about what a great trip it had been and how glad she was that they did it.


So people so it, and do it with style. It's all about attitude and a thirst to learn.

 

[Hippocampus]

Milt thank you for contributing. Have always learned something from your posts wherever they appear.

 

[MVDarlin]

Good choice if you are not in a hurry.

 

[FF]

"Good choice if you are not in a hurry."


Most passage makers can never carry enough fuel to be in a hurry , and cover 2000-4000 miles non stop.

 

[mvweebles]

Good choice if you are not in a hurry.

Tortoise and hare. On a delivery of a N57 southbound out of SoCal, I picked up an Azimut 70-ish footer doing 20+ kts. We played cat a mouse for a week, both arriving in Acapulco within a few hours of one another. We burned 1000 gals on the 1500 nm run. They probably burned 6000.

I have many examples where a well found slow boat is much faster than a comparable planing boat.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

With the exception of a single boat that I know of, I believe all the twin engine Nordhavn's are wet exhaust. That's why it's common in the larger models, and in the 41 and 51. In addition, a number (don't know how many or percentage) of the single engine boats are wet exhaust too where that was the buyer's preference.


The debate between the two is endless, mostly because they have different, but nearly equal pros and cons. So pick your poison. My first Nordhavn was dry exhaust and I didn't care for it, so switched to wet exhaust. The biggest objections I had were that dry exhaust was loud, dirty, and periodic maintenance (keel cooler cleaning and zinc changes) had to be done from in the water. I hate changing impellers on a wet exhaust boat, but at least it can be done in a warm, dry engine room. But I consider those to be value judgements, not technical arguments.

I'm glad you reposted your thinking on selecting wet exhaust. I was taken aback when I first read your thoughts over a year ago, but as I thought through how rare a water pump failure is and how easy they are to service against the machinations required for dry stack in a hi-end yacht, made a ton of sense. You converted me into an exhaust agnostic.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Curious about intervals for keel cooling cleaning. Am I right to assume the keel cooler gets hot enough to impede growth on long runs? Similarly I believe when boat sits you get more growth regardless if you’re using hard or ablative. Also have on occasion put a black opaque plastic bag over running gear to slow growth if she’s going to sit in a slip when we fly home.
So
Does usage change cleaning intervals?
Any reason to prevent light from getting at them during wet storage?
How often do you need to take them off entirely to clean the back of them?
Have put lanolin on the Frigoboat bronze ones for wet storage then rub it off when leaving . Reasonable to do the same for keel coolers?

 

[sunchaser]

If you want to go to sea in a powerboat and begin doing your due diligence on proper seagoing powerboats, you'll find that the Nordhavn brand makes a lot of sense. Milt Baker, Nordhavn 4732 Bluewater

For those of you who don't know, Milt is one of the more accomplished serious cruisers around. Milt, you were a two boat owner at one time. Is that still the case?

 

[rslifkin]

One of the most common pieces of advice given to new boaters is to start small and build up your skills. And when someone says they are going to buy a boat tomorrow and do the Big U (Alaska to Maine), they got shot down and dismissed as ignorant fools.


Well, we should all take pause because BigPopPop did just that, and completely pulled it off. I remember meeting him and his family within the first month or so of their departure. He was all questions and all ears with anyone and everyone. And I remember talking to Mrs PopPop who seemed VERY uncertain about the whole thing, but was going along to be a good sport.


Some time later I got email from BigPopPop who was in the DR if I recall, and had a main engine water pump problem. I think I advised flying someone in with experience to fix it. Nope, he dug right in and fixed it himself and was on his way.


Then I think after the conclusion to their trip I saw Mrs PopPop again at a Nordhavn gathering and she was gushing about what a great trip it had been and how glad she was that they did it.


So people so it, and do it with style. It's all about attitude and a thirst to learn.

I think if you know what you're getting into, are reasonably capable and are willing to learn and deal with whatever comes your way, you've got a decent shot at just jumping in and making it work. The ones who fail out are the ones that love the idea of it, but don't really know what they're getting into and just aren't ready for the demands it places on them.

 

[twistedtree]

I think if you know what you're getting into, are reasonably capable and are willing to learn and deal with whatever comes your way, you've got a decent shot at just jumping in and making it work. The ones who fail out are the ones that love the idea of it, but don't really know what they're getting into and just aren't ready for the demands it places on them.

I agree. If you deny the complexity and amount you need to learn, you will likely fail. If you are pro-actively trying to learn, you have a good chance of success. Another couple bought a Nordhavn with very little (maybe none, but I'm not sure) experience and among other places, made it to South Georgia which is one of the most remote and difficult places to go. They may have been the smallest recreational power boat to ever go there.

 

[twistedtree]

Curious about intervals for keel cooling cleaning. Am I right to assume the keel cooler gets hot enough to impede growth on long runs? Similarly I believe when boat sits you get more growth regardless if you’re using hard or ablative. Also have on occasion put a black opaque plastic bag over running gear to slow growth if she’s going to sit in a slip when we fly home.
So
Does usage change cleaning intervals?
Any reason to prevent light from getting at them during wet storage?
How often do you need to take them off entirely to clean the back of them?
Have put lanolin on the Frigoboat bronze ones for wet storage then rub it off when leaving . Reasonable to do the same for keel coolers?

As a starting point, it will need to be cleaned at the same frequency as the hull. The complication is that the cooler manufacturers say not to paint it, so sans anti-fouling, you get grows faster and that's harder to remove. I know some people who paint them with anti fouling paint anyway and find that one the whole it works better that way.


As you guessed, cleaning behind the tubes/grid is harder. One neat trick is to install a small wire loop around each tube and just leave it in place. Then to clean it you just drag the loop down the tube and it shaves off the growth on the back side.


So for every hassle, there are tricks to deal with it and make it easier. Just don't get lured into thinking the pile of hassles is any smaller on the other side of the fence. You may prefer the contents of one pile over the other, but they are the same size, hence the argument rages on.


FWIW, Milt jumped into this thread, and he built/has one of the few, and perhaps even the only wet exhaust Nordhavn 47.

 

[La Sirena]

I am looking to purchase a used "passage making" boat in the 50 - 55 foot range. I've looked extensively at Nordhavn, Kady Krogen and Selene (also Diesel Ducks, but not too seriously).

My take on Nordhavns:
Very good resale, probably the best of the bunch. For similar lengths, the boats are heavier (thicker hulls). The subsystems seem to be very well designed and installed with fairly good access (limited on the smaller boats). The owner's group is very active, and PAE is very active with the owners as well. The designs of the boats vary greatly. The older ones (46, 50, 57) have a more rounded stern and are more efficient through the water. The newer ones are more square on the stern with a flat bottom. The topsides have a great deal of variation too. Most require a lot of steps up and down, and the living spaces are smaller than competitors due to the dry stack, large fuel tanks, large engine rooms and thick hulls. The newer models seem top heavy with flybridges on top of the PH instead of "chariot style". And many don't have a boat deck that extends completely over the (small) cockpits.

Kady Krogens on the other hand have the same hull design and similar living quarters layout throughout the history and range of models. They've perfected their design over the years instead of reinventing it like Nordhavn does. The layout is very livable with minimal steps and an open, airy feel, with large cockpits. The design philosophy is much different than N. The boats are much lighter, but still built well. The owner's group is also very active, but more active on the East Coast US.

Selenes, like Krogens, have maintained similar hull and topside designs throughout the history and range of sizes. They have a very workable layout, with low profiles, large cockpits, large boat decks and chariot style FB. The construction is not quite as heavy as the N, but much heavier than KK. Most (or all?) Selenes have wet exhaust.

All 3 can meet my needs, and all can and have crossed the Pacific. If the right boat came along I would purchase any of the 3 brands, but I'm favoring Selenes. Selenes just seem like they have the best use of space, consistent design philosophy, and heavy build quality.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I think it's a little light on fuel even for an Atlantic crossing. Maybe if you island-hopped Newfoundland, Greenland, Iceland, Fareo's, UK. And I'd be a bit uncomfortable with a non-displacement boat making such a trip.


Note that he has two boats, one in Europe and one in North America. So the PNW videos are on a different boat from the trip from the UK to Iceland. No crossing was made, as I understand it.

Tony sold Venture II long ago, so now he only has Venture (I've cruised extensively on both), which did travel from the east coast to west coast and many places in between. I traveled from Scotland to Iceland via the Faroes aboard Venture II (you are correct, that vessel stayed on the European side of the Atlantic), the conditions we encountered ranged form flat calm to truly awful, steep, short period seas on the bow. The vessel handled it with grace, the only casualties being broken reading lamp filaments and some crystal glasses. I've traveled as far west as Dutch Harbor aboard Venture I.

Flemings have crossed oceans, a client of mine crossed from the Med to Bahamas, with a stop in the Canaries and Cape Verdes, in a 75 two years ago, that model can do it easily, but Flemings, while very high quality and well-engineered (I've helped clients build a number of Flemings and have been to their yard many times), are not really designed for crossing oceans, and Fleming will tell you that (the new 85 may be an exception). A Nordhavn 40 did circumnavigate several years ago, as part of a Nordhavn marketing campaign. The N40 is also one of only two Ocean A rated vessels built, the other being a MJM40.

Again, quality of build and engineering is undeniable for both brands, and I've helped build many N's as well, and have been to their China and Taiwan yards countless times. I've seen how the sausage is made for both N's and F's, as well as many others.

Nordhavns are of course legendary for their travels too, they have visited every continent, and I've cruised as far north as 81-27 aboard an N68, that's about 600 nm from the North Pole.

There is a reason Nordhavn and Fleming command the prices they do and only a fraction is marketing-related, the vessels are really well-built, with solid engineering and design, and they have both built a lot of boats, Nordhavn over 600 with over 10m miles traveled, Fleming 400+, I don't have an estimate of how many collective miles they have traveled but it's a lot. After a builder has built hundreds of boats, they have learned many lessons, overcome many challenges and instituted countless changes generated by buyers, all of which refines the product.

The higher price is only partially related to redundancy of systems, Ns and F's use a lot of the same gear used by other builders. It's more about quality of engineering, and attention to detail in the hull, cabin, deck build process, as well as gear installation and the design of the gear installation, the latter plays a significant role in vessel cost, and performance.

When I hear people assert that the higher price of a Nordhavn, or Fleming, is related to marketing, I feel compelled to set the record straight. Indeed, it may be demand-driven, but that demand is based on value and a record of performance, which is genuine.

Having said all that, there are many other builders who do a very good job and provide a quality product that is fit for its mission, with good value for the money. Decide where you want to go, and what you want to do first, and then select the best vessel for that mission and your budget.

 

[Baker]

I think if you know what you're getting into.............. The ones who fail out are the ones that love the idea of it, but don't really know what they're getting into and just aren't ready for the demands it places on them.

I think this is true for ANY boat. It is also the reason why a large majority of boats sit unused in marinas. I have always said.....there is the dream...and then there is reality. The closer those two things are to each other, the more likely the purchase of a boat will be successful and that the boat will be used. Sailboaters have a tendency to be most guilty of this....buying a "tank" like a Tayana double ender of Hans Christian(because of the dream of going over the horizon), and then expecting it to make a good weekend boat. The high volume boats(Hunter, Catalina, etc) make way better weekenders than a double ended full keel boat(because of the reality of easier and less expensive operation). Anyway, just repeating myself and others over the years. As it is said above, buy the boat for the intended mission and have realistic expectations.

 

[danderer]

If you're interested in Nordhavns, by all means take a look at the Nordhavn website at https://nordhavn.com/ and also at the Nordhavn Dreamers site which is also operated by Pacific Asian Industries, Nordhavn's builder.

I'm the chief moderator of the Nordhavn Owners Group (NOG) which is open only to those who own Nordhavns.

When we were looking for boats I joined the various owners groups - Selene, KK, DeFever, etc - as a way to get a feel for what owners were encountering. Were certain maintenance issues coming up frequently? Did folks refer favorably or not to support from the builder?

All of the groups were welcoming to this idea and I learned a lot. We were even invited to attend (and we did) several yearly gatherings/rendezvous and were treated as family even though we were wannabes.

Nordhavn was the exception. Their owner groups were owners-only. As I recall, one group even had a welcome page that said something to the effect of "If you don't have a N don't even think about joining." At least that is how I remember it.

While individual N owners I talked to were gracious and helpful, the "groups" of owners did not appear that way to me. A small point perhaps, but it did factor into our deciding which boat to purchase.

 

[Trawler_traveler]

...
Nordhavn was the exception. Their owner groups were owners-only. As I recall, one group even had a welcome page that said something to the effect of "If you don't have a N don't even think about joining." At least that is how I remember it.

There is a separate group for dreamers.



-Sven

 

[Mako]

My take on Nordhavns:
Very good resale, probably the best of the bunch.

People keep stating and restating this. It may be true, but is there data to support that statement? Here is the oft-used Martin scale. So does a Nordy only lose 4% when it "rolls off the lot" as opposed to 5% which is the average? Does a Krogen lose less or more?

 

[fgarriso]

Don't assume that boats at the islands you mentioned could make ocean crossings simply by adding fuel capacity.

Your correct fuel tankage is needed for range, but one thing a lot of people forget about is stability. When you setting on the side of tall steep swell at 45deg is not the time to see if your boat will right it's self.