My engines are better than yours

[Baker]

sunchaser wrote:

Baker:
.
You raise a good point - there are few +2000 hour Cummins engines out there in pleasure use "fast boats." Fast boats often die as weight is added and props*become overloaded. To keep costs down Sea Ray et al underpower and with added gear fuel etc early demise occurs. Even if propped right, at a pleasure craft level of 100 or so hours per year it is tough to get to 2000 fast boat hours before your engine has given up because of bolt on failures. Boat sitting time*can be more relevant than engine hours as HX crud up and other systems wear out just sitting there.

The best example of +2000 go fast hours would be the commercial sport fishermen who seldom sell their boats. Tony Athens would tell you that at 500 hours per year in SoCal and with good maintenance no problem getting 4000+ hours on a Cummins "fast boat."

On our trawlers, it is tough to wear out any engine at 1400 -1800 RPM assuming good maintenance and close to right propping. On a go fast diesel at 2600-3000 RPM, close to right propping is not good enough.

Noted.* I did see one boat that was repowered with Cummins 450hp in 2001 and already had 2600 trouble free hours on it and was ready for more.*

[surveyor1]

Forklifft:

You have the kind of boat I'm looking for.
Is that a Nova ?

[Baker]

surveyor1 wrote:

Forklifft:

You have the kind of boat I'm looking for.
Is that a Nova ?

It is a Present 42(built by CHB).* You should give them a look if you are looking at Novas.* Also realize Heritage East is by the same builder as Nova.* Very likely our next boat as well.

[Marin]

Forkliftt wrote: But I would rather have to swap out a 10 micron Racor or rig an electric fuel pump to supply fuel to a mechanical injector pump any day. The marine environment is very hard on electrical connections as we all know. With EEC systems the amount of connections is many- so opportunity for failure is increased.

I would agree with that, at least from my perspective of understanding most mechanical things but not electronic things.* Someone more familiar with electronics might feel a lot more comfortable with an EEC system on their boat engine(s)*than I do.

We see the same thing in aviation, of course.* I remember when fly-by-wire throttle systems were introduced to our planes in early*the 1990s, and listeing to the preflight guys (the ones who take a a new*plane from the factory and turn it into something that will actually fly) bemoaning this "electrical deal" that ran the throttles on the engines where they were used to cables between the power levers and the throttle bodies on the engines.* But today nobody thinks twice about that stuff.

Of course if an airplane engine*craps out there are all sorts of specialists on the ground ready to fix it as soon as it lands.* Much different than you and me in our boats out there on our own.* In that regard, I'd much prefer to do as you describe--- change out a filter, swap a lift pump, whatever.

[Marin]

Baker wrote:

ANd I did overlook Lugger....which I think very highly of....quite possibly my first choice on a new build slow boat. If I am not mistaken, Lugger uses a lot of Deere platforms as well as Toyota....hard to go wrong there....It seems that Lugger is more of a "marinizer" of diesel engines rather than a builder.

John--- You are correct.* Northern Lights/Lugger doesn't make any engines from scratch.* They marinize established diesels from several different Japanese manufacturers as well as John Deere, and I know my friend also travels to Germany with regard to base engines they use that are made there.* Same deal with their generators.* I believe NL does make the electrical generators, or has them made specifically for them per their designs.* But the diesels that power the generators are marinized versions of another manufacturer's base engines.

I believe Luggers are the standard engines on all or most Nordhavn models these days.

[Gulf Comanche]

Whoa Sloboat, you taking up the nasty flag where RickB/FF left off? Easy there, amigo.

[Baker]

I would say there isn't much difference in fuel systems....only in the back up. The EEC systems on aircraft are not only redundant, they are "plug and play". If they need to be replaced, it is basically just a cannon plug(is that how you spell it) and re-rack it. With the electronics available today, there should be no reason why there shouldn't be a double redundant system on these marine engines with the ability to have a stand-by "plug and play" in the spare parts.

I have flown airplanes that are electronically controlled but do have manual reversion if the electronics fail.....it isn't that hard from an engineering standpoint.....just a valve that fails open when power is removed and allows the power lever to actuate a manual valve. The market obviously is not demanding this or it would be incorporated.

I would never call myslef an expert, but I have studied and flown a few airplanes....in fact the older I get, the less of an expert I become....

[Marin]

sloboat wrote:

Unlike a boat or truck engine, airplane engines don't "crap out" due to a single failure of a critical electronic system.

"Crap out" is just an expression, it's not exactly a technical term. Our people use "crap out" to describe everything from a precautionary engine shut down to a burned out light bulb. This isn't a technical aviation forum, it's a boating forum.

The majority of inflight engine shutdowns are precautionary and are the result of one or more system failures not an actual physical engine failure. And I'm well aware of the multiple layers of redundancy in aircraft systems as opposed to the minimal or no redundancy in marine systems. But despite all this redundancy, aircraft engines still have to be shut down on occasion.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making in response to Forklift's comment. Very complex electronic systems have become the norm in aviation over a relatively short time span. Short enough that as they were developed and implemented there were still people building and testing the planes who were used to and preferred the older mechanical systems.

But unlike the fellow out in his boat, commercial aircraft have a huge 24/7/365 support network on the ground. Many of the current generation of planes can "talk" to the ground in real time and if there is a problem with a system that problem is relayed automatically to the airline's maintenance department. They can make the decisions as to what to do about the problem, round up whatever parts might be needed, assign the mechanics, etc. long before the plane lands and gets to the gate.

Programs like Airplane Health Management, Maintenance Performance Toolbox, our Rapid Response Center and whatever Airbus calls their equivelent services were developed to help an airline minimize a plane's time on the ground because airplanes only make money when they're in the air. Not all airlines choose to take advantge of this capability but more and more of them are.

Contrast all this with the boater who's out on his own. If his EEC engine "craps out," he's on his own to figure out the problem. If it's an electronic systems problem it may be beyond his ability to deal with unless he has a means of diagnosing the problem and then has the replacement component(s) on board. Or a second engine that is unaffected by whatever caused the first one to shut down.

Somebody on this forum awhile back mentioned at least one brand of marine diesel--- Lugger?--- that can continue to run, at least to a degree of performance, with most of the EEC failed except for one critical component. That at least reduces the chances of getting totally stranded by an engine shutdown.

All of which is simply an agreement with Forklift's earlier comment about his preferring an engine with mechanical systems as opposed to one with electronic systems. It's not a slam against electronic engine controls because they can be made to be very reliable. It's simply a matter of what a person is comfortable with.




-- Edited by Marin at 23:24, 2009-01-20

[Keith]

If I were building a new boat, it would be powered by John Deere. I've seen some of their equipment and a presentation from their factory and I was really impressed.

[RickB]

"From what I can tell, RickB/FF haven't put down their flags."

The technical writer/communications expert with a lifetime of experience*with the manufacturer doesn't need my help. An astute reader can usually spot BS and our resident Boeing expert doesn't seem to be producing any in my opinion.

I only contribute when I have specific information that can be independently confirmed by any reader, constructive stuff don't you know.

[FF]

The Iveco folks that sell Fiat marinizations claim there NEF series are all mechanical, no electric injection and are Tier 2 legal. At least that was their story last year.

Haven't found another marinizer yet that makes this claim .

Living in FL the chance of a lightning side strike or hit is just a part of life.

Would be really hard to get tech help in the Black Sea to fix some electrics that do work fine in a delivery truck or pay loader.

FF

[FF]

Steyr is from what I can see a lightweight , high rpm engine like a BMW /yanmar.

I would love to loose 500lbs in the design from a lighter engine , but a sewing machine sound at cruise night be hard for the Soundown to remove.

Better a 1200 -1400 economy cruise than 2100 , for me anyway.

It is begining to look like the simplest "solution" to the Eurowimp requirements will be to purchase an older boat , yank the numbers and "rebuild".

That might allow a non Tier-2 engine to just visit , which is our desire .

If the boat does become popular enough for limited production , the buyer will have to decide the complexity level he is comfortable with while cruising..

FF

[FF]

"even includes prop crurves, which every manufacturer should be providing. I previously posted the address in the "Engine" section."

If only it were that EZ. For a boat that wants max efficiency the prop curves are basically useless.

A different style graph "a fuel map" is required .

The mfg do sometimes provide these to gen set or water pump mfg folks , just on a boat they worry an unskilled operator with no instrumentation will get a short service life , or BLOW the engine.

FF

[FF]

For those that want to know a bit more on diesels,

http://www.maritime.org/fleetsub/diesel/chap9.htm

when you have PLENTY of time.