Mix auto transmission fluid in diesel fuel?

[backinblue]

Ah, yes, finally an expert saying what I, not an expert, have been saying for years. Thank you Steve. I have my oil analyzed at 200 hours. If the lab says the oil is still good to use, it stays in the engine. So many guys say "yeah, but changing oil at 100 hours is cheap insurance", but it is not cheap. It is a total waste.

Question for those more expert than me. Like many boaters in New England, my boat is used for about 6 mos. then hauled and stored outside for 6 mos. Given that scenario, is it a good idea to change the oil yearly before storage as I do, or am I wasting my money if my seasonal hours were only 100 for example?

 

[psneeld]

I would do an oil sample at every fall layup and let that be my recommendation.

It will also let you know if you have other issues like fuel dilution or antifreeze present and now those remedies can be a winter project versus spring when everyone is too busy for your boat.

 

[Art]

There is a youtube channel "Project Farm" This guy does some amazing at home testing of all kinds of products. He did one on diesel fuel additives. It was very interesting.

Might clear up some misconceptions and questions...

 

[fgarriso]

You didn't say how old the engines are? Or what type of injection systems you are working with?

We have used gallons of ATF in the diesel fuel for years on older engines at a ratio of 1gal to 100gal every other tank full on marine and HD trucks.

Most people missed my comment earlier. I said "older engines". I am not talking about "common rail, DEF, or even electronically controlled engines, This is pre computer everything. Some people may not even be that old. The engines I was referring to are more than 50 years old and still going strong. These engines will not live on LSD or any fuel required for new engines. Back then there wasn't additives for fuel or even blended fuels. If you had fuel gelling in cold temps you would mix #1 and #2 diesel together at the tanks. If you had a problem with injectors sticking or clogging you would add ATF. This was all common practice in the 60s and 70s.

Sorry for the confusion, I guess I'm showing my age. After all I've been doing this for 70 years.

 

[psneeld]

I have 3800 hours in the last 10 years (ULSD) on a 50 year old (rebuilt) Lehman and I neither have problems or use additives. Just Biobor when I started spending summers in Florida.

Not sure I see the need for any. No pro mechanic/engineer I have talked to said I should be.

 

[fgarriso]

I have 3800 hours in the last 10 years (ULSD) on a 50 year old (rebuilt) Lehman and I neither have problems or use additives. Just Biobor when I started spending summers in Florida.

Not sure I see the need for any. No pro mechanic/engineer I have talked to said I should be.

I also use BioBor when in warm or humid areas. It's good stuff and works.

 

[fgarriso]

Biobor;

Fuel Biocide and Lubricity Additive – The Worldwide Standard
All the fuel…All the time®
Kills microbial growth in all fuels
Adds lubricity to ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel
Prevents clogged filters
Prevents corrosion
Kills in both water and fuel phase

Looks like your getting all the additives you need with one product.

 

[backinblue]

Or maybe just buy ValvTect diesel if you can?

"ValvTect Marine Premium Diesel contains BioGuard™ biocide, lubricity improver, water dispersant, corrosion inhibitor and fuel stabilizer and is specifically formulated to prevent problems caused by the reduction of sulfur content."

 

[fgarriso]

Scott,

Do you use Racor fuel filters?

If so have you noticed the filters and water bowls getting a black film in them just after adding Biobor?

At times I have noticed this, and believe that it may be killing microbial growth in the tanks as intended, but in doing so leaves a black residue in the fuel and tanks. I have pulled the tank hatches on an empty 800 gal tank, and wiped it clean, filled it with local fuel with Biobor. Then in 48 hrs found black film in the filters. I think in killing the bugs it may be creating a black film.

 

[fgarriso]

Bob,

You sound like an ad for Valvtect. In all seriousness I try to buy Marine Bulk fuel when I can at 2000 gal quantity.

 

[backinblue]

Biobor;

Fuel Biocide and Lubricity Additive – The Worldwide Standard
All the fuel…All the time®
Kills microbial growth in all fuels
Adds lubricity to ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel
Prevents clogged filters
Prevents corrosion
Kills in both water and fuel phase

Looks like your getting all the additives you need with one product.

Maybe. Some also list:

Raises Cetane
Stabilzes fuel
More Power
Better Economy
Eliminates Water
etc.

 

[backinblue]

Bob,

You sound like an ad for Valteck. In all seriousness I try to buy Marine Bulk fuel when I can at 2000 gal quantity.

No worries. I don't buy anywhere near that much. More like 100 gals at a time. My point is that there are local fuel docks here that have ValvTect fuels and others that don't. However, the prices are relatiuvely the same or even less depending on where you go, so I figure I might as well buy ValvTect if I can.

 

[psneeld]

Biobor;

Fuel Biocide and Lubricity Additive – The Worldwide Standard
All the fuel…All the time®
Kills microbial growth in all fuels
Adds lubricity to ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel
Prevents clogged filters
Prevents corrosion
Kills in both water and fuel phase

Looks like your getting all the additives you need with one product.

Only used it on 50 gallons after I got to Florida out of over 6,000.

 

[Art]

2008 when we purchased our Tolly... she had quite a bit of REALLY old, dirty gasoline in her tanks. The first owner had to be carried off in his late 90's. He'd been living aboard at a covered dock for years; without running the boat. After he was done his professional boat maintenance guy got the boat and spent two years refurbishing everything; inside and out - for he and his wife. Including, full rebuild on port engine and complete top end on starboard as well as full rebuild on port Velvet Drive trans. Unfortunate for him... about the time he was completed his wife left him. Anyway... we ended up at a great price getting a completely refurbished Tollycraft with dirty fuel in her tanks.

I got to asking around and Soltron was recommended by some well known marine engine rebuilders. It did wonders completely cleaning up our gasoline. I religiously put more in each gas-up. Comes highly recommended for diesel fuel too. It's the only additive I put into our tanks. We haven't had dirty filters for many years... that is, after the first couple of months when Solton cleaned the dirty fuel in the tanks.

https://soltron-gtr.com/overview/

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I also use BioBor when in warm or humid areas. It's good stuff and works.

Keep in mind, BioBor and other biocides kill microbial life, however, they treat the symptom, not the cause. The water remains and with it the potential for both corrosion and future microbial contamination. Without water you can't have microbial contamination, and thus if you remove the water, no biocide is needed. When you kill microbial life, the "carcasses" remain and accumulate.

Installing a stripper tube allows you to remove the water, and therefore not need a biocide. More on the subject here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/cleaning-diesel-tanks/

 

[Art]

Keep in mind, BioBor and other biocides kill microbial life, however, they treat the symptom, not the cause. The water remains and with it the potential for both corrosion and future microbial contamination. Without water you can't have microbial contamination, and thus if you remove the water, no biocide is needed. When you kill microbial life, the "carcasses" remain and accumulate.

Installing a stripper tube allows you to remove the water, and therefore not need a biocide. More on the subject here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/cleaning-diesel-tanks/

Steve - You had experience with Soltron? Post 134 mentions mine.
https://soltron-gtr.com/overview/

 

[Nomad Willy]

There’s lots of additives in most lube oil and I’ll bet trans oil is not an exception.

Some may be good but many may be bad. Like in OB engine oil they put something in it to prevent it mixing w gasoline. Just the opposite of what you’d want.

There may be some to several additives in trans oil that would be very undesirable in a combustion chamber or hot crankcase.

But unless you know it’s probably best not to combine the two and heat it up in a crankcase and then pump it through a hot engine.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Steve - You had experience with Soltron? Post 134 mentions mine.
https://soltron-gtr.com/overview/

I'm afraid I do not.

 

[SteveK]

None so blind as those who will not see.

None so deaf as those who will not hear.

 

[Art]

None so deaf as those who will not hear.

None so stupid as those who will not learn.

 

[catalinajack]

Question for those more expert than me. Like many boaters in New England, my boat is used for about 6 mos. then hauled and stored outside for 6 mos. Given that scenario, is it a good idea to change the oil yearly before storage as I do, or am I wasting my money if my seasonal hours were only 100 for example?

As Steve D'Antonio mentioned in his post just above, testing should include TBN, Total Bsse Number, which is a measure of an oil's ability to neutralize acids. If the TBN is sufficient, barring other reasons, the oil is still good to use and the testing facility will or should say so. Here is a real life example, from my diesel pickup, after 600 hours of use and three years in the engine. Yup, oil still good to use but retest in 100 hours. The TBN had gone from its original "10" to "4". So, yes, you are likely wasting your money. Because of the additives (acid neutralizers), that oil that stays in the sump all winter is doing no more evil to your engine's innards than it was during boating season. I know, I know, many will say it is cheap insurance. It is not, it is just a waste of perfectly good oil and expensive labor for those who do not do their own service.

By the way, Blackstone, a highly-regarded tester, charges a few dollars extra for TBN analysis and it must be purchased ahead of time.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

As Steve D'Antonio mentioned in his post just above, testing should include TBN, Total Bsse Number, which is a measure of an oil's ability to neutralize acids. If the TBN is sufficient, barring other reasons, the oil is still good to use and the testing facility will or should say so. Here is a real life example, from my diesel pickup, after 600 hours of use and three years in the engine. Yup, oil still good to use but retest in 100 hours. The TBN had gone from its original "10" to "4". So, yes, you are likely wasting your money. Because of the additives (acid neutralizers), that oil that stays in the sump all winter is doing no more evil to your engine's innards than it was during boating season. I know, I know, many will say it is cheap insurance. It is not, it is just a waste of perfectly good oil and expensive labor for those who do not do their own service.

By the way, Blackstone, a highly-regarded tester, charges a few dollars extra for TBN analysis and it must be purchased ahead of time.

Well said, not to mention the environmental impact of tossing all that oil.

 

[backinblue]

Thanks guys, very good info. My only comment would be that even if I had analysis done, I wonder what a potential buyer would think about going several years w/o changing oil vs. doing it annually. A quick look at my Yanmar manual says 125 hrs or 6 mos, whichever comes first. I'm thinking that service records showing routine maintenance following the manufacturer's guidelines might improve resale value more than the savings of not changing oil as often.

 

[SteveK]

Thanks guys, very good info. My only comment would be that even if I had analysis done, I wonder what a potential buyer would think about going several years w/o changing oil vs. doing it annually. A quick look at my Yanmar manual says 125 hrs or 6 mos, whichever comes first. I'm thinking that service records showing routine maintenance following the manufacturer's guidelines might improve resale value more than the savings of not changing oil as often.

I log either an oil change or an oil test at the frequency needed. We are in a new age and scheduled changes by date are no longer needed. I used to change oil by the hours until introduced to oil testing.

 

[Art]

Thanks guys, very good info. My only comment would be that even if I had analysis done, I wonder what a potential buyer would think about going several years w/o changing oil vs. doing it annually. A quick look at my Yanmar manual says 125 hrs or 6 mos, whichever comes first. I'm thinking that service records showing routine maintenance following the manufacturer's guidelines might improve resale value more than the savings of not changing oil as often.

Therein lies the [oil-change schedule] conundrum...

"To be or not to be [to change oil or not to change oil, at mfg's suggested schedule]: that is the question"??!!

"Ay, [should I or shouldn't I often change oil] there's the rub"!!

"That makes calamity of so long life" [diesels do last a long time, having often oil-changes or not]! "For those who would bear the whips and scorns of time" [poor little diesel at times so oil-change neglected]. "Be all my sins remembered" [logging oil-change records can end up being a burden, for some]!

Were it not for Shakespeare... wouldn't recorded oil-change sequences matter a good deal less?! I think not. But, then again... I seem to be still able to think. Therefore, I apparently have decided To Be!!

 

[psneeld]

A no brainer for me.... new owner looks at the last oil analysis and either says OK or not. I prefer not to deal with idiots anyway. My new truck tells me when to change on its own.

I might do it if the engine is still under warranty unless I had written approval from the warrantor on the warranty that an oil analysis OKed otherwise.

I think most engine manufacturers (and for good reason) don't think the average operator has even heard of oil analysis.

Some don't even think low oil pressure or overheating is all that bad...

 

[backinblue]

A no brainer for me.... new owner looks at the last oil analysis and either says OK or not. I prefer not to deal with idiots anyway. My new truck tells me when to change on its own.

I might do it if the engine is still under warranty unless I had written approval from the warrantor on the warranty that an oil analysis OKed otherwise.

I think most engine manufacturers (and for good reason) don't think the average operator has even heard of oil analysis.

Some don't even think low oil pressure or overheating is all that bad...

Even under warranty, it's ok to change your own oil. Mine will tell me it's due at 10K miles or 1 year. If you didn't want to change it, you could reset the warning and I don't know that anyone would know whether you actually changed it. My wife only drives about 5K a year, but her car still says it's due each year by date.

 

[psneeld]

Even under warranty, it's ok to change your own oil. Mine will tell me it's due at 10K miles or 1 year. If you didn't want to change it, you could reset the warning and I don't know that anyone would know whether you actually changed it. My wife only drives about 5K a year, but her car still says it's due each year by date.

Don't think I said changing your oil wasn't OK, just going beyond warranty directed mileage. Using your own brand oil is even OK...but again intervals are usually pretty rigid.

 

[backinblue]

Don't think I said changing your oil wasn't OK, just going beyond warranty directed mileage. Using your own brand oil is even OK...but again intervals are usually pretty rigid.

What I meant was that if warrany says change every 10K miles and you wanted to wait, you could reset the warning and there's no way to tell that you didn't change it.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Thanks guys, very good info. My only comment would be that even if I had analysis done, I wonder what a potential buyer would think about going several years w/o changing oil vs. doing it annually. A quick look at my Yanmar manual says 125 hrs or 6 mos, whichever comes first. I'm thinking that service records showing routine maintenance following the manufacturer's guidelines might improve resale value more than the savings of not changing oil as often.

The engine manufacturer 6 month oil change rule really irks me, it's either incredibly conservative, or just a way to generate dealer revenue.

I've tested hundreds, maybe thousands of oil samples, I've never encountered 7 month old oil that required a change because of its age.