Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 08-18-2018, 04:35 PM   #21
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,716
To get that far over the sailboat, that powerboat had to be moving on plane (some news reports said 25 knots). In that amount of wind, the sailboat would have been moving maybe 6 knots. Unless his motor was on, it is a very far stretch to put any of this on the sailboat, no matter how he was maneuvering. Very unlikely his motor was on with both the main and jib set.

PS, sailboats don't tack because they want to on a whim, they tack because the have to. At 6 knots a tack cannot surprise a 25 knot powerboat unless the guy is asleep below. A good tack takes about 10 seconds to complete, average speed about 4 knots, traveling about 65 feet. In the same time a powerboat traveling 25 knots will go 415 ft. The powerboat would need to be on a course near a grazing pass to end up in a T bone, even if the sailboat took the worst possible maneuver. No excuse for that. Doesn't matter in the colregs whether the poles were stowed or in use.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 05:45 PM   #22
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 24,003
I don't think anyone thinks a tack should be the cause of a collision .....but under the Navrules a poorly timed tack under certain conditions could very well be construed as not following the rules and therefore putting that skipper partly to blame.

I have enough sailing and sail racing experience to understand the difference between good sailors and the vast majority I know that have sailboats. Anything is possible with some of them behind the wheel/tiller.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 06:02 PM   #23
Guru
 
boomerang's Avatar
 
City: Kilmarnock VA
Vessel Name: YellowBird
Vessel Model: 1978 Mainship 34
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 912
Quote:
Originally Posted by DDW View Post
To get that far over the sailboat, that powerboat had to be moving on plane (some news reports said 25 knots).
\

I'm not trying to be argumentative but I would think 25 knots would've put him back in the water on the other side of the sailboat. I'll bet it was under 8 knots. Remember, his engines were probably pushing him the whole time up onto the boat.
__________________
-Shawn-
boomerang is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 07:49 PM   #24
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 11,502
Nothing but comment suggests, as yet, the sailboat tacked on top of the powerboat in its water.
Operating in the vicinity of a sailboat you can often anticipate what it will do,it`s usually obvious when it will tack or gybe,and you can operate accordingly.
The news report suggests no inappropriate sailboat operation. So far it looks like a simple "failure to keep and proper lookout/failure to yield right of way/failure to take avoiding action" on the part of the powerboat.

Suggesting otherwise is mere speculation. Let`s see what time reveals.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 08:48 PM   #25
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,716
An 8 knot collision would not put him on top of the sailboat. Had to be faster than that. 8 knot collisions result in some crunching and sliding off. But the speed is actually irrelevant to the colregs.

The only way a poorly timed tack would put the sailboat at fault is under under rule 8, and it would be a quite an unusual situation at that. The only way you can tack on a powerboat and hit it is if the powerboat was passing very, very close, and the helmsman was not paying attention. This is almost certainly a rule 18 situation, "A power driven vessel will keep out of the way of: (iv) a sailling vessel." It isn't ambiguous.

Now, if the sailboat was motoring there are a whole different set of rules.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-18-2018, 09:18 PM   #26
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 24,003
I have seen plenty of poorly timed or foolish tacks and there are plenty more rules that MIGHT apply ......but we don't have enough info

Which is really my main point.

No one here knows what did or didn't happen, no matter how far fetched or outside someone's experiences on the water.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 09:05 PM   #27
Member
 
SailorBruce's Avatar
 
City: Washington, DC
Vessel Name: Dolphin Dreams
Vessel Model: DeFever '53 POC
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by menzies View Post
Hmmm, regardless of the sailboat having an engine on, unless that photo is flipped...
Just for the sake of clarity, the sailboat’s engine can be on to charge the batteries or chill the cold plate, and she will still have rights if the engine is not being used for propulsion. Think transmission in neutral. You may not understand how or why a sailboat does what it does, but your ignorance doesn’t change your burden to give way.

Also, more fishermen should learn the difference between “trolling” and “trawling”. And if you think planar boards constitute the latter(they don’t) you owe us all some day shapes that advertise your ignorance. Know the rules.

In this case, there is simply no way to imagine a realistic scenario where the sailboat is at fault or could have avoided the collision. Charter boat captain is gonna have to go back to his land job.
SailorBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 09:20 PM   #28
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 24,003
Maybe if sailboats actually used steaming cones, there wouldn't be so much ignorance in BOTH. camps.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-22-2018, 10:28 PM   #29
Guru
 
tiltrider1's Avatar
 
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 2,641
Looking at the picture I could build a scenario we’re the sail boat would have some fault. I can not build a scenario where the power boat is blameless. Odds are the power boat is going to be given 90-100% of the blame. This of course is total speculation as my sum total of data is a picture.
tiltrider1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2018, 01:15 AM   #30
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: penultimate Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhays View Post
I doubt that the sailboat tacked in front of the boat, unless it was a last ditch effort to get out of the way. ....
Happened to me. Without apparent reason, a sailboat tacked in front in unrestricted waters east of Angel Island. Caused me to take violent turn to avoid.

One advantage of a slow trawler: you'll probably have more time to evaluate and avoid collision.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2018, 01:44 AM   #31
Guru
 
BruceK's Avatar
 
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 11,502
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Happened to me. Without apparent reason, a sailboat tacked in front in unrestricted waters east of Angel Island. Caused me to take violent turn to avoid...
Maybe a CF member who occasionally visits TF. Sailboaters can be so naughty.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
BruceK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2018, 05:58 AM   #32
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 24,003
They certainly ain't all old salts like some sailors would like all powerboaters to think they are...
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2018, 08:03 AM   #33
FF
Guru
 
FF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 21,969
"Maybe if sailboats actually used steaming cones, there wouldn't be so much ignorance in BOTH. camps."


Perhaps but in over 50 years of boating , mostly anchored at night , I can not remember a single anchorage where a black ball at the bow was shown by one single vessel, except us. Power or sail.
FF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2018, 08:12 AM   #34
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Ft Pierce
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 24,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
"Maybe if sailboats actually used steaming cones, there wouldn't be so much ignorance in BOTH. camps."


Perhaps but in over 50 years of boating , mostly anchored at night , I can not remember a single anchorage where a black ball at the bow was shown by one single vessel, except us. Power or sail.
I fly one and used to use a steaming cone too when I had my last sailboat.

Just goes to show that the vast majority of boaters are ignorant of the rules or choose not to follow them.

Hard for either camp to point fingers.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2018, 03:55 PM   #35
Veteran Member
 
Captain Ralph's Avatar
 
City: Jax
Vessel Name: JoSea
Vessel Model: Bertram 58 MY
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailorBruce View Post
Just for the sake of clarity, the sailboat’s engine can be on to charge the batteries or chill the cold plate, and she will still have rights if the engine is not being used for propulsion. Think transmission in neutral. You may not understand how or why a sailboat does what it does, but your ignorance doesn’t change your burden to give way.
Where did you did that SH** (stuff) from? If machinery is running and available, in use or not, then she is under power.
__________________
“A smooth sea never made a skillful sailor”
Captain Ralph is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2018, 04:00 PM   #36
Veteran Member
 
City: Florida
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by markpierce View Post
Happened to me. Without apparent reason, a sailboat tacked in front in unrestricted waters east of Angel Island. Caused me to take violent turn to avoid.

One advantage of a slow trawler: you'll probably have more time to evaluate and avoid collision.
I hear ya on that one...our trawler is running at 8-9 knots at best so plenty of time...typically, to evaluate the situation....
__________________
Rob
Crazymonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2018, 04:52 PM   #37
Newbie
 
City: Nokomis
Join Date: Jun 2018
Posts: 2
I would reserve judgment for the following reason. I was doing a trip from Deal Island on the eastern shore of the Delmarva up to Annapolis. We had a carb problem on our 25' Chris Craft Catalina. We were dead in the water and I flew the orange black ball black square distress flag. While speaking with a container ship coming down the channel on the radio a moron in a large sail boat passes us so close that I could have spit on him. I hollered a few choice words and he told me that HE had the right of way and that I should have moved. Go figure. This applies to power and sail, but some people out on the water should just stay on the fast. I would assume nothing as to either's operation.
TommyA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2018, 05:31 PM   #38
Member
 
SailorBruce's Avatar
 
City: Washington, DC
Vessel Name: Dolphin Dreams
Vessel Model: DeFever '53 POC
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Ralph View Post
Where did you did that SH** (stuff) from? If machinery is running and available, in use or not, then she is under power.
That is an interesting position to take. The definition of a sailing vessel that I have always used comes from 46 CFR 170.055 - Definitions concerning a vessel. (p)Sailing vessel means a vessel propelled only by sails.

I suppose Congress could change the law to match your understanding, but probably not in time to make a difference in the photo from the OP. You know, the one where [B]the fishing boat was on top of the sailboat![\B]
__________________
--
M/Y Dolphin Dreams
DeFever 53 POC
Washington, DC
SailorBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2018, 05:51 PM   #39
Guru
 
dhmeissner's Avatar
 
City: Port Townsend
Vessel Name: The Promise
Vessel Model: Roughwater 35
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,565
The sailboat is 6 knots regardless of sail or auxiliary power. I would not have liked to been in the cockpit for that manouver.
dhmeissner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-24-2018, 06:00 PM   #40
Guru
 
Boat's Avatar
 
City: SchoolHouse Branch
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 550
They were clueless, especially fishing boats and sail boats. They don't look for day shapes, they don't even know to look for day shapes.

I had a brief experience as the captain on a seismograph boat in the Gulf of Mexico. Paid off my student loans in one trip. We flew day shapes and had ROW over most other vessels. We were dragging equipment a quarter mile behind the boat while running a grid and trying to stay within 1 meter of the lines.

My take-a-way was: STAY AWAY FROM COMMERCIAL VESSELS.

Another lesson: Big ships are deceptively fast and will run you down if you aren't diligent.
Boat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012