Long Range Cruising - How big is too big?

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. HS. One of many European sources for steel vessels: https://www.devalk.nl/en/Yachts-for-sale.html

 

[backinblue]

9 years is a life time. Enjoy your dream, the world will be a different place in 5 years, it’s ok to change your dream. If you still have the same dream 8 years from now the information will be more relevant.

The OP did not state his age, but lets assume it's 50 ish. 9 years is certainly a lifetime but even more so as we get older. At 50, you may still feel invinceable and be able to do everything you could at 30. But between 50 and 60, aging can accelerate and you may face some unexpected health issues you never dreamed of. Since you apparently have a decent budget for a boat, I agree it would be better to buy something and start cruising and learn what you like and don't like. For 2 people, I can't imagine something in the 45-50 ft range that is already set up and proven as a long range cruiser couldn't suffice. And if it doesn't you can always sell and buy again, bigger or smaller. If your project boat doesn't turn into the dream you envision, you may have a hard time finding a buyer and likely at a large loss of your retirement budget. Also, if you really love to spend time and money working on boats, any used boat will give you plenty of opportunities for improvements and customization w/o starting with an empty steel hull. an the end, you'd probably have a nicer boat and more money left in reserve and maybe you could manage leaving sooner than 9 years for your adventure.

 

[ranger58sb]

Basically, what length and draft would you consider prohibitive for an average guy to bounce around the world?

To clarify some variables - assume a worst case of only 2 people on board, will be equipped with bow & stern thrusters, no intention on transient docking unless absolutely necessary (mooring/anchoring out always), a pretty healthy yearly cruising budget but nothing crazy, and no time-frame/schedule at all so weather windows will be chosen carefully.

Sounds like a fun plan.

I'd probably divide the question into two parts. How big can two people handle? How big can two people maintain?

The handling part -- especially docking or locking -- is often about layout, flow, and experience more than overall size. Good visibility, good side deck access, etc.

The maintaining part is more often about number of and access to various systems... and stamina. You will be cleaning, repairing, replacing, upgrading something -- or researching/planning for one of those -- every day. EVERY DAY!

OK, that's a little hyperbole, but not much... and as you go larger, incorporate more systems and so forth, you'll risk straining that whole stamina thing...

I can't really recommend a size limit, mostly because to me it would depend on the actual boat. And for your goal, it would depend on the actual "2 people."

-Chris

 

[O C Diver]

When it comes to bigger boats, part of the question is how large an annual expense can you handle. Bigger boats burn more fuel. Bigger engines hold more gallons of oil. Normal annual replacement parts are more expensive. When you have to haulout, ships cost a lot more to haul than boats.

Probably a good idea to find out what a bottom job (haul, clean and paint) costs. Remember, 10 to 15 years from now, you might not be able to physically do the work required and need to pay someone to do it. Do you have deep enough pockets to handle an engine replacement? Old boats come with old engines. Many can be rebuilt for 5 figures. Have a catastrophic failure, and now you're looking at 6 figures.

The world of boat insurance is now very different. Visited a friend of mine last week. His dock neighbor has an 80' Hatteras motor yacht fully restored. The only insurance company he could find to insure his boat, won't let him operate it without a licensed captain onboard. Do you have documented time or prior ownership of vessels within 25' length of ones your considering? Can you afford a 5 figure annual insurance bill? Can you afford a licensed captain until the insurance company says you have enough experience?

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

I would try to keep it under 70’. And even at 70’ it’s a lot of boat for two people to maintain. Plus, 70’ should accomplish your mission without too much trouble.

I think the advice to get a boat now - maybe something in the 50’ range - and get some experience is the way to go. You will lear so much about what you like, don’t like, need, and want. Then refine the specs for the next boat.

And I would avoid a big refit project. Even a well sorted boat will be a huge project, and your extra time I think is better spent gaining cruising and not experience.

 

[fgarriso]

I'm definitely not going to pull the trigger until I've consulted the proper experts. That's great intel about the ballast that I had not considered. Thanks.

All serious offshore boats will need some level of ballast.

 

[READY]

So many things I could say but many have been covered. To answer the primary question I would limit it to 50-60 feet. No reason to go larger for even more than 2 people. You need 2 heads, a couple of staterooms, a pilot house, galley and saloon. Everything else is superfluous and probably wasted space that you have to pay for and maintain. I would concur with those who say buy an existing older solid boat soon. As an owner of several of these over time I assure you you will still learn everything you need to know without starting with just a hull!

 

[koliver]

Well, ok. A 70' seiner, fishing roe herring in the Charlottes, in March. If they're going to survive, the seine will be in the hold until they can replace that with 100-150 tons of herring. Otherwise, people die.
Conversions of fish boats with large carrying capacities are problematic.

Just for perspective:
A friend bought a working seiner in 2001. Used to work wherever there were fish, including the Bering Sea. To get there, it traveled empty, safely. The herring fishery had been its last adventure as a fishboat. I saw it with a scum line around the stern, acquired on that herring fishery. Empty, the boat was sitting over 3' higher. Its present waterline is close to that empty position, after removing the gear and adding cabins in the hold and on the deck, dinghies on the new roof. As a pleasure boat, that is a superb example. It has been featured in yachting magazines. No, it hasn't gone offshore as a pleasure boat, but it has obtained certification after whatever testing the Canadian DoT required, so has passed the stability requirements. I know the conversion took about 5 years and cost far more than the initial estimates, but the owner never brags about the actual amount spent.

It sounds like you want to do something similar. You should scour the wooden boat magazines, commercial boat magazines, for stories about workboat conversions. There are plenty of examples and perspectives.

 

[MYTraveler]

IME, 70' is about the upper limit for a boat to be handled by two people. But not just any 70' boat, one that is laid out to be handled by two.

You should also consider the relationship of costs to length, which are not linear. Just as the volume of a sphere increases as a function of the cube of its diameter, many of the costs associated with boat ownership correspondingly increase as a function of a boat's length.

 

[ktdtx]

I would have to ask why?


Two people and a few occasional guests can be comfortable on a 50 to 60' boat. Assuming you won't have a horde of guests all the time why would you want to "drag" an extra 20' to 50' of boat around everywhere you go?


You can anchor most of the time but probably not ALL the time. Occasionally you will need it hauled for repairs & maintenance--longer/heavier limits the places this can happen.

Simple things like dock lines, anchors & ground tackle grow in size and cost.


So, I don't think the "biggest" is the best idea--what is the "smallest" that will do all you envision, comfortably.

 

[Solly]

Funny enough, they're one of the driving factors behind my desire. It looks to me that they're getting it done. Albeit well behind their own schedule, but that's why I want to double my allotted time.

It's very possible to do and I love watching somebody else do it !!
None of the youtubers give a cost to do it. Just have to do it for the experience I guess. Figure twice as long and 3 times the $$$

Just curious, what's a used commercial boat, like your thinking about, go for out there ? I was surprised at the price's when I searched around on the east coast. Compare that with a new hull able to move under it's own power. You do the finishing work. That's what I'd do. There is a lot to be said for new on a boat once the bugs are worked out. Just maintaining will keep you busy.

I was never serious about doing one, just thought it was a neat idea too.

 

[Hippocampus]

Went through this exercise before choosing and building our last boat which was used for full time cruising. Have a close friend who ran boats 80-120’ as full time captain. Have other friends who are full time time cruisers. Things I was educated to:
Above a certain size (depending upon cruising grounds) having a big boat means a lot more advanced planning. Places with suitable berths are limited and this decreases your flexibility as to where you can go. If you’re a free spirit and pick a direction instead of a strict list of designated destinations you’ll find it frustrating. Some of our best cruises started with “ let’s check out this chain of islands or let’s head down this coast”.
Above a certain size even if you have the tools and skill set you’re going to have other people work on your boat. You’re going to want to “get her done” not spend your time doing that work instead of cruising. Even at 45-55’ at a minimum doing bottoms, running gear, wax, etc. is grunt work which you’ll want to dump on someone else.
Big boats are complex. Between that and grunt work vetting vendors, scheduling, and monitoring work is a time consuming PIA.
Big boats are easier to run than small once underway but a whole new ballpark for close quarters. Neither is it anchoring you need to relearn but fueling, docking, positioning in channels etc. in some respects easier but a new skill set.
Costs don’t increase linearly with loa but rather more with displacement.
Needing crew is very limiting. I kept a crew book and still was always looking for good reliable, available crew. It’s a huge deal being able to run as a mom and pop only needing crew to satisfy insurance requirements. That’s massively liberating.
In power you see the boats that are actually used the most from my limited observations are usually ~65’ at the top end of loa. Don’t know TT or Hammerheads decision matrix but think they choose very wisely. Both will be owner operators. Have much wider cruising choices and miss out on virtually nothing for quality of life concerns. See little reason to go larger if your in to boating. Note my captain friend rarely saw the owner. Even rarer was to have the owner(s) on the boat when it was underway. Neither the Caribbean-med nor the Caribbean -Maine loops were done with owners.

 

[twistedtree]

Another thing to consider is that when you exceed 20m in length you trigger a bunch of new regs and requirements. The rules vary widely, but it’s a magic number. Most notable in my experience so far is mandatory VTS participation in many areas. You take the fist step across the line from recreational operation to professional operation. I have heard that in some areas it triggers licensing requirements as well.

 

[BandB]

Above a certain size (depending upon cruising grounds) having a big boat means a lot more advanced planning. Places with suitable berths are limited and this decreases your flexibility as to where you can go.

We've always found this to be somewhat exaggerated but within ranges. For instance, they say looping that over 50' is a problem, yet we had no issues at 69'4". They say coastal over 80' but plenty of much larger boats on the East Coast. Much is what one is use to. Owners of 80' boats have no issues finding berths, but they would for 120'. Owners of 120' have no issues, but would for 180'. Point is people adapt.

Above a certain size even if you have the tools and skill set you’re going to have other people work on your boat. You’re going to want to “get her done” not spend your time doing that work instead of cruising. Even at 45-55’ at a minimum doing bottoms, running gear, wax, etc. is grunt work which you’ll want to dump on someone else.

If trying to do a lot of DIY, even just cleaning, you can become boat crew very quickly rather than boaters.

Costs don’t increase linearly with loa but rather more with displacement.

Logically you have length x width x depth. 80' isn't 33% greater than 60', but more like 70%.

Needing crew is very limiting.

Full time crew is easy, part time or occasional crew is difficult. Your favorite captain is a favorite with others too and already committed. You have to go with someone you don't know and you may find our very quickly you don't want to know.

See little reason to go larger if your in to boating. Note my captain friend rarely saw the owner. Even rarer was to have the owner(s) on the boat when it was underway. Neither the Caribbean-med nor the Caribbean -Maine loops were done with owners.

Part is time, part is interest, part is ability. We like boating, not just a hotel on the water. We like to take the helm. We're licensed captains. Our boats are never relocated without us aboard. We're in such a small minority. We had friends in RI who had a 200' or so Benetti. They used it very little. They'd go for summer vacation to Nantucket, Martha's Vineyard, Cape Cod. We talked to them and they downsized to 130'. He retired. They started cruising a month, flying home a month, so now cruise 6 alternating months a year. Still when they fly home, crew often relocates the boat, but the owners do spend far more time than before on the boat underway. December, they did cruise from RI to FLL on the boat, but it was a quick run, much overnight, and they slept that part. They stayed longer than plan due to weather conditions in RI and just flew home about 10 days ago. Their crew relocated the boat from FLL to RI or is in the process. Last I knew the crew had enjoyed a few days in Charleston and now was in Norfolk area. However, the norm now is to travel with the boat, this was an exception.

Everyone has a size at which it no longer feels like boating. We know up to 130' or so, if it cruises at 15-20 knots, put us at the helm and it's still boating to us. We know, or think we know, that above 200' wouldn't feel like boating to us, definitely wouldn't at 12-14 knots. We do not know in between. However, we even put a caveat on that. We chartered a wonderful 113' Burger once. Gorgeous boat. But only 12 knots cruise. 12 knots on 113' feels like 6-8 knots on 40-50' and didn't feel at all like boating to us. It was like riding around in a gorgeous hotel. It just didn't afford the sensations we've come to love.

So the size solution is to charter before buying, but the OP will have a very hard time doing that in his type boat. What could be worse though than a dream boat you don't enjoy. Many owners of very large yachts are not boaters. They are entertainers of family and friends. They are limited on time and have no desire to spend the time for an ocean crossing.

 

[2savage]

Circling back a little, is this going to be your first boat? 99.99% of people who do what you are planning to do have owned many boats beforehand. I have owned ten or eleven and have worked my way up to my current boat which displaces 100,000 LBS. After 45 or more years on the water even my current boat has my utmost respect. Although you say you will always be at anchor when not running, there will be times when you must come alongside a dock for fuel, water and such. The momentum of 100,000 LBS doing just 1/2 a knot is massive. I've seen inexperienced dock hands secure a line on a cleat when such a vessel still has momentum, and the cleat was ripped out of the dock and became a lethal projectile. My point is, you don't just jump into boat ownership without the required experience to handle the boat you buy. Acquiring the needed experience takes years. So plan on getting this experience now so that when time comes to own a large lump of steel you are up to the task.

 

[BandB]

Another thing to consider is that when you exceed 20m in length you trigger a bunch of new regs and requirements. The rules vary widely, but it’s a magic number. Most notable in my experience so far is mandatory VTS participation in many areas. You take the fist step across the line from recreational operation to professional operation. I have heard that in some areas it triggers licensing requirements as well.

Licensing in much of Europe and other areas.

 

[DBL]

I'm still learning...

Hi, your original post is very interesting, and has sparked a lot of useful comments. I'd like to offer you a resource that might help you think about your plan from a different perspective.

Robert Beebe was a US Navy captain who spent a lot of his free time sketching out ocean-crossing power boats as a way of thinking about traveling the world with his wife after the war. His book "Voyaging Under Power" is an easy read, with good illustrations.

I highly recommend the book as part of your project development library.

I really like that he took the time to work out the hull shape, berthing, meal prep, power and displacement issues on paper - then put his own time and money into building a boat that he and his wife (along with a few friends) sailed comfortably for tens of thousands of miles.

I first read "Voyaging Under Power" after spending several years owning and running shrimp trawlers out of different packing houses from New Orleans to Key West to Savannah. I'm a practical guy, and I found that I really liked the way Captain Beebe thought about building economical boats that could get the job done.

I hope you have a good time planning your project, and that you can spend some time soon on boats that will help you see what works for you.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

6 years full time cruising on a 60 fter
Would love our exact same setup on a 65 or even 70 fter for extra WLL and extra beam
But not if it meant stepping up into bigger engines, extra shaft etc.

Thanks for the response, I appreciate your perspective.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

The OP did not state his age, but lets assume it's 50 ish. 9 years is certainly a lifetime but even more so as we get older. At 50, you may still feel invinceable and be able to do everything you could at 30. But between 50 and 60, aging can accelerate and you may face some unexpected health issues you never dreamed of. Since you apparently have a decent budget for a boat, I agree it would be better to buy something and start cruising and learn what you like and don't like. For 2 people, I can't imagine something in the 45-50 ft range that is already set up and proven as a long range cruiser couldn't suffice. And if it doesn't you can always sell and buy again, bigger or smaller. If your project boat doesn't turn into the dream you envision, you may have a hard time finding a buyer and likely at a large loss of your retirement budget. Also, if you really love to spend time and money working on boats, any used boat will give you plenty of opportunities for improvements and customization w/o starting with an empty steel hull. an the end, you'd probably have a nicer boat and more money left in reserve and maybe you could manage leaving sooner than 9 years for your adventure.

Great response with good insight; thank you.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

How big is too big.... For a couple? Depends on experience, skills, financial wherewithal, and physical fitness of the couple. And depends on how the boat is setup.

Cashing out a 401k to buy a 110-ft commercial boat, refit over 9-yrs and wonder if there are any issues beyond anchoring further out? This is the product of too much time on Yachtworld. Too little time in the real Boatworld. A 40' boat might be oversized....

Peter

Thanks for your helpful input. There's plenty of concerns I'm working through, however I came here for real world opinions on one specific issue because it's subjective.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

I believe that infamous Time Bandit is for sale.

There are other former crab boats for sale that were buyback boats that cannot participate in any fisheries.

I was looking at some of those Alaska fisheries buyback boats. Unfortunately I'm on the far other coast. Thanks for the info!

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

Sounds like a fun plan.

I'd probably divide the question into two parts. How big can two people handle? How big can two people maintain?

The handling part -- especially docking or locking -- is often about layout, flow, and experience more than overall size. Good visibility, good side deck access, etc.

The maintaining part is more often about number of and access to various systems... and stamina. You will be cleaning, repairing, replacing, upgrading something -- or researching/planning for one of those -- every day. EVERY DAY!

OK, that's a little hyperbole, but not much... and as you go larger, incorporate more systems and so forth, you'll risk straining that whole stamina thing...

I can't really recommend a size limit, mostly because to me it would depend on the actual boat. And for your goal, it would depend on the actual "2 people."

-Chris

Great reply, it's much appreciated.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

When it comes to bigger boats, part of the question is how large an annual expense can you handle. Bigger boats burn more fuel. Bigger engines hold more gallons of oil. Normal annual replacement parts are more expensive. When you have to haulout, ships cost a lot more to haul than boats.

Probably a good idea to find out what a bottom job (haul, clean and paint) costs. Remember, 10 to 15 years from now, you might not be able to physically do the work required and need to pay someone to do it. Do you have deep enough pockets to handle an engine replacement? Old boats come with old engines. Many can be rebuilt for 5 figures. Have a catastrophic failure, and now you're looking at 6 figures.

The world of boat insurance is now very different. Visited a friend of mine last week. His dock neighbor has an 80' Hatteras motor yacht fully restored. The only insurance company he could find to insure his boat, won't let him operate it without a licensed captain onboard. Do you have documented time or prior ownership of vessels within 25' length of ones your considering? Can you afford a 5 figure annual insurance bill? Can you afford a licensed captain until the insurance company says you have enough experience?

Ted

Great info. Insurance is one of the big issues I foresee, and will be taking steps over the next 9 years to ensure I've got plenty of experience on vessels of similar size.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

I would try to keep it under 70’. And even at 70’ it’s a lot of boat for two people to maintain. Plus, 70’ should accomplish your mission without too much trouble.

I think the advice to get a boat now - maybe something in the 50’ range - and get some experience is the way to go. You will lear so much about what you like, don’t like, need, and want. Then refine the specs for the next boat.

And I would avoid a big refit project. Even a well sorted boat will be a huge project, and your extra time I think is better spent gaining cruising and not experience.

Great info, thank you.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

So many things I could say but many have been covered. To answer the primary question I would limit it to 50-60 feet. No reason to go larger for even more than 2 people. You need 2 heads, a couple of staterooms, a pilot house, galley and saloon. Everything else is superfluous and probably wasted space that you have to pay for and maintain. I would concur with those who say buy an existing older solid boat soon. As an owner of several of these over time I assure you you will still learn everything you need to know without starting with just a hull!

Great perspective; thank you.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

Just for perspective:
A friend bought a working seiner in 2001. Used to work wherever there were fish, including the Bering Sea. To get there, it traveled empty, safely. The herring fishery had been its last adventure as a fishboat. I saw it with a scum line around the stern, acquired on that herring fishery. Empty, the boat was sitting over 3' higher. Its present waterline is close to that empty position, after removing the gear and adding cabins in the hold and on the deck, dinghies on the new roof. As a pleasure boat, that is a superb example. It has been featured in yachting magazines. No, it hasn't gone offshore as a pleasure boat, but it has obtained certification after whatever testing the Canadian DoT required, so has passed the stability requirements. I know the conversion took about 5 years and cost far more than the initial estimates, but the owner never brags about the actual amount spent.

It sounds like you want to do something similar. You should scour the wooden boat magazines, commercial boat magazines, for stories about workboat conversions. There are plenty of examples and perspectives.

Great info! Glad it worked out for him, sounds exactly what I'm envisioning.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

IME, 70' is about the upper limit for a boat to be handled by two people. But not just any 70' boat, one that is laid out to be handled by two.

You should also consider the relationship of costs to length, which are not linear. Just as the volume of a sphere increases as a function of the cube of its diameter, many of the costs associated with boat ownership correspondingly increase as a function of a boat's length.

Good info, thanks.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

I would have to ask why?


Two people and a few occasional guests can be comfortable on a 50 to 60' boat. Assuming you won't have a horde of guests all the time why would you want to "drag" an extra 20' to 50' of boat around everywhere you go?


You can anchor most of the time but probably not ALL the time. Occasionally you will need it hauled for repairs & maintenance--longer/heavier limits the places this can happen.

Simple things like dock lines, anchors & ground tackle grow in size and cost.


So, I don't think the "biggest" is the best idea--what is the "smallest" that will do all you envision, comfortably.

You make great points! I do appreciate the input.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

It's very possible to do and I love watching somebody else do it !!
None of the youtubers give a cost to do it. Just have to do it for the experience I guess. Figure twice as long and 3 times the $$$

Just curious, what's a used commercial boat, like your thinking about, go for out there ? I was surprised at the price's when I searched around on the east coast. Compare that with a new hull able to move under it's own power. You do the finishing work. That's what I'd do. There is a lot to be said for new on a boat once the bugs are worked out. Just maintaining will keep you busy.

I was never serious about doing one, just thought it was a neat idea too.

I don't mean a bare hull per se. Just a commercial boat that needs a ton of love but still is out working under it's own power. That way I can retain a lot of items, just rebuild them as opposed to replace everything.

When I start his endeavor, I'll be looking to buy something sub 100k.

 

[HarebrainedScheme]

Went through this exercise before choosing and building our last boat which was used for full time cruising. Have a close friend who ran boats 80-120’ as full time captain. Have other friends who are full time time cruisers. Things I was educated to:
Above a certain size (depending upon cruising grounds) having a big boat means a lot more advanced planning. Places with suitable berths are limited and this decreases your flexibility as to where you can go. If you’re a free spirit and pick a direction instead of a strict list of designated destinations you’ll find it frustrating. Some of our best cruises started with “ let’s check out this chain of islands or let’s head down this coast”.
Above a certain size even if you have the tools and skill set you’re going to have other people work on your boat. You’re going to want to “get her done” not spend your time doing that work instead of cruising. Even at 45-55’ at a minimum doing bottoms, running gear, wax, etc. is grunt work which you’ll want to dump on someone else.
Big boats are complex. Between that and grunt work vetting vendors, scheduling, and monitoring work is a time consuming PIA.
Big boats are easier to run than small once underway but a whole new ballpark for close quarters. Neither is it anchoring you need to relearn but fueling, docking, positioning in channels etc. in some respects easier but a new skill set.
Costs don’t increase linearly with loa but rather more with displacement.
Needing crew is very limiting. I kept a crew book and still was always looking for good reliable, available crew. It’s a huge deal being able to run as a mom and pop only needing crew to satisfy insurance requirements. That’s massively liberating.
In power you see the boats that are actually used the most from my limited observations are usually ~65’ at the top end of loa. Don’t know TT or Hammerheads decision matrix but think they choose very wisely. Both will be owner operators. Have much wider cruising choices and miss out on virtually nothing for quality of life concerns. See little reason to go larger if your in to boating. Note my captain friend rarely saw the owner. Even rarer was to have the owner(s) on the boat when it was underway. Neither the Caribbean-med nor the Caribbean -Maine loops were done with owners.

Great info, I appreciate the detailed response, it's a lot to consider.