Interesting boats

[rslifkin]

Tollycraft made it pretty easy: Mine weighs 17K dry. Loaded with full fluids and all other items as well as all gear I figure it hits 20K to 21K.

Tolly Classified - Model Selection

I estimated mine similarly.

21,600 dry, let's round up to 22k for maybe some optional equipment and fudge factor. Add 550 lbs of water, 2650 lbs of fuel, 290 lbs for a half full holding tank, plus another 500 lbs for tools, supplies, etc. and we're at 26k lbs. Loaded to travel we're probably a little more, plus people and dog.

 

[slowgoesit]

During survey, ours was weighed by the travel lift at 77,000 lbs. That was with half fuel, very little fresh water, no holding tank, no owner's stuff on board. Filling the fuel tanks to full would add another 7,000 lbs, water another 4,000 lbs, and "stuff", probably another 10,000 lbs for a total of 98,000 lbs. . . .

 

[Art]

During survey, ours was weighed by the travel lift at 77,000 lbs. That was with half fuel, very little fresh water, no holding tank, no owner's stuff on board. Filling the fuel tanks to full would add another 7,000 lbs, water another 4,000 lbs, and "stuff", probably another 10,000 lbs for a total of 98,000 lbs. . . .

Can we spell exponential!

My 34' Tolly weighs 21K fully loaded. rslifkin's 38' Chris hits 26K fully loaded

Your Beebe at 50' tops out at 98K lbs. loaded. That = 5X my Tolly's weight and 4X the weight of the Chris.

Question: At less than 1/2 again as long as either of our two boats... why does your 50' Beebe outweigh our boats by up to 5X. Incredible amount of ballast? Or... is there some other reason for the exponential weight difference in relation to relatively limited size difference?

Just wondering!

 

[rslifkin]

Can we spell exponential!

My 34' Tolly weighs 21K fully loaded. rslifkin's 38' Chris hits 26K fully loaded

Yours at 50' tops out at 98K lbs. loaded. That = 5X my Tolly's weight and 4X the weight of the Chris.

Question: At less than 1/2 again as long as either of our two boats... why does your 50' Beebe outweigh our boats by up to 5X. Incredible amount of ballast? Or... is there some other reason for the exponential weight difference in relation to relatively limited size difference?

Just wondering!

Our boats are planing hulls, his isn't. Generally the slower the boat, the heavier it'll be. Partly because weight impacts performance less on a slower boat, so you can use heavier, simpler construction for some things, you can handle more weight for huge tankage, etc.

Weight-wise, both your Tolly and my Chris are mid-pack for weight on a planing hull. Something like a similar Hatteras will be heavier, but the similar size Bayliners and some of the other builds that aren't just old school conventional construction will be lighter. The 26k for mine is at what I'd consider typical loading. If we were really fully loaded for travel and carrying a dinghy, etc. I'd expect to be at least a few hundred pounds heavier, possibly close to 27k without people. Thinking about it, we might be a little over 26k anyway, as I haven't really fully accounted for a few hundred pounds of ground tackle, house batteries, solar panels, etc. that have been added to the boat. So we might be close to 26,500 at typical load these days.

But in general, weight does increase faster than any other dimension as you go bigger. That's why bigger boats are often easier to dock. They gain weight faster than size (windage), so everything happens more slowly in close quarters, making precise adjustments easier.

 

[Art]

Our boats are planing hulls, his isn't. Generally the slower the boat, the heavier it'll be. Partly because weight impacts performance less on a slower boat, so you can use heavier, simpler construction for some things, you can handle more weight for huge tankage, etc.

Weight-wise, both your Tolly and my Chris are mid-pack for weight on a planing hull. Something like a similar Hatteras will be heavier, but the similar size Bayliners and some of the other builds that aren't just old school conventional construction will be lighter. The 26k for mine is at what I'd consider typical loading. If we were really fully loaded for travel and carrying a dinghy, etc. I'd expect to be at least a few hundred pounds heavier, possibly close to 27k without people. Thinking about it, we might be a little over 26k anyway, as I haven't really fully accounted for a few hundred pounds of ground tackle, house batteries, solar panels, etc. that have been added to the boat. So we might be close to 26,500 at typical load these days.

But in general, weight does increase faster than any other dimension as you go bigger. That's why bigger boats are often easier to dock. They gain weight faster than size (windage), so everything happens more slowly in close quarters, making precise adjustments easier.

I see your point. But... 4X and 5X heavier - with less than 50% length increase... my rational engineer mind has questions regarding size to weight ratios. Less than 1/2 again as long with 2X weight gain = no problem. 3X OK, I can even see that. 4X and 5X weight increase makes me question.

 

[rslifkin]

I see your point. But... 4X and 5X heavier - with less than 50% length increase... my rational engineer mind has questions regarding size to weight ratios. Less than 1/2 again as long with 2X weight gain = no problem. 3X OK, I can even see that. 4X and 5X weight increase makes me question.

Yeah, it seems like a lot, but compare the amount of fuel and water we carry to what he mentioned. From his post, that boat carries about 14k lbs of fuel and 4k lbs of water. That alone is more than the dry weight of your boat.

 

[RonR]

Try the below:
https://www.hackerboat.com/available-new-boats/

Not bad, we have Stancraft in our area that does a nice job.

https://stancraftboats.com/new/

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Yeah, it seems like a lot, but compare the amount of fuel and water we carry to what he mentioned. From his post, that boat carries about 14k lbs of fuel and 4k lbs of water. That alone is more than the dry weight of your boat.

Also a 15 foot beam, certainly more ballast (probably north of 10k pounds based on other Beebe designs?), heavy windows, three decks, a heavy main engine plus an auxiliary engine, and perhaps - not knowing as much about the Tolly or Chris Craft - thicker, heavier hull form below the rub rail.

 

[rslifkin]

Also a 15 foot beam, certainly more ballast (probably north of 10k pounds based on other Beebe designs?), heavy windows, three decks, a heavy main engine plus an auxiliary engine, and perhaps - not knowing as much about the Tolly or Chris Craft - thicker, heavier hull form below the rub rail.

Exactly. My hull is built pretty heavily, but relatively speaking, my engines are fairly light, there's no ballast in my boat, etc.

 

[phillippeterson]

I see your point. But... 4X and 5X heavier - with less than 50% length increase... my rational engineer mind has questions regarding size to weight ratios. Less than 1/2 again as long with 2X weight gain = no problem. 3X OK, I can even see that. 4X and 5X weight increase makes me question.

When the length increases so does the beam and draft. Consider a sphere increasing in radius by 50% - it increases in volume by 337%.

 

[Hippocampus]

Think boats are defined by the mission, crew and how deep your pockets are.
Mission- want to continue to snow bird Newport R.I. to leewards. Also one time around North Atlantic gyre.
Crew-mom and pop. Extra crew only when required by insurance.
Expense- more concerned by the difference between in and out plus annual expense as this is the cost of ownership. Willing to lose ~150-$200k in constant dollars over period of 10 years plus annual expense.
Suitable one offs in steel in North America have no market. Buying in the Netherlands or France is an option but boat would likely need to return there for sale when we are done. Diesel ducks have changed from what I can gather. Read Moby Duck’s website for details. Would do a DD as there’s a cult following so resale feasible. Personally have no aversion to Fe but because I’m an American economics are unfavorable. Same for wood epoxy or plank on frame.
Want old school solid grp up to the hull deck joint. As concerned about other boats , debris and other strikes above the waterline as below. Believe availability and cost of repair to original strength favors solid grp in a FD cruising boat.
Want at least 90 degrees AVS, collision bulkhead and minimal down flooding risk. Agree weather forecasting has improved dramatically but they still get it wrong all too often. You only care about hyper local weather and its there they are the weakest.
Want belt and suspenders for key systems so that includes some form of get home.
Want some form of stabilization. Preference is fins.
Don’t want a project boat. I’m a dust farter and life’s too short. Been there and done that. It always takes more time and money than you think and you never get either back.

 

[Art]

Think boats are defined by the mission, crew and how deep your pockets are.
Mission- want to continue to snow bird Newport R.I. to leewards. Also one time around North Atlantic gyre.
Crew-mom and pop. Extra crew only when required by insurance.
Expense- more concerned by the difference between in and out plus annual expense as this is the cost of ownership. Willing to lose ~150-$200k in constant dollars over period of 10 years plus annual expense.
Suitable one offs in steel in North America have no market. Buying in the Netherlands or France is an option but boat would likely need to return there for sale when we are done. Diesel ducks have changed from what I can gather. Read Moby Duck’s website for details. Would do a DD as there’s a cult following so resale feasible. Personally have no aversion to Fe but because I’m an American economics are unfavorable. Same for wood epoxy or plank on frame.
Want old school solid grp up to the hull deck joint. As concerned about other boats , debris and other strikes above the waterline as below. Believe availability and cost of repair to original strength favors solid grp in a FD cruising boat.
Want at least 90 degrees AVS, collision bulkhead and minimal down flooding risk. Agree weather forecasting has improved dramatically but they still get it wrong all too often. You only care about hyper local weather and its there they are the weakest.
Want belt and suspenders for key systems so that includes some form of get home.
Want some form of stabilization. Preference is fins.
Don’t want a project boat. I’m a dust farter and life’s too short. Been there and done that. It always takes more time and money than you think and you never get either back.

48' Tollycraft!

 

[slowgoesit]

Yeah, it seems like a lot, but compare the amount of fuel and water we carry to what he mentioned. From his post, that boat carries about 14k lbs of fuel and 4k lbs of water. That alone is more than the dry weight of your boat.

Some of the answer is above. 14,700 lbs of fuel if totally full, but unless doing a long passage, not sure how often we'll fill all four tanks. 4,000 lbs of water. Ballast is around 5000 lbs of lead. Engine and transmission weighs about 3k by itself. Throw in a wing engine, 6 total 8d batteries, 2" thick hull, 36" prop, 5" drive shaft w/ variable pitch change mechanism, etc. Beam is 15.5', actually 16.5' as they recently added larger rubber baby buggy bumper rub rails down low. She draws 5.5' when fully loaded. This boat cruises at 7.5kts, burning 2.4 gallons/hr, top speed is around 9.5kts. Range with no reserve is about 6,500 miles. But then we'd have to take out a mortgage to fill up again!

But your boats would run circles around mine!

 

[Art]

Some of the answer is above. 14,700 lbs of fuel if totally full, but unless doing a long passage, not sure how often we'll fill all four tanks. 4,000 lbs of water. Ballast is around 5000 lbs of lead. Engine and transmission weighs about 3k by itself. Throw in a wing engine, 6 total 8d batteries, 2" thick hull, 36" prop, 5" drive shaft w/ variable pitch change mechanism, etc. Beam is 15.5', actually 16.5' as they recently added larger rubber baby buggy bumper rub rails down low. She draws 5.5' when fully loaded. This boat cruises at 7.5kts, burning 2.4 gallons/hr, top speed is around 9.5kts. Range with no reserve is about 6,500 miles. But then we'd have to take out a mortgage to fill up again!


But your would run circles around mine!

Nice boat! Thanks for answers!!

 

[OldDan1943]

Nice boat! Thanks for answers!!

Crude oil prices are climbing again too.

 

[rslifkin]

Think boats are defined by the mission, crew and how deep your pockets are.
Mission- want to continue to snow bird Newport R.I. to leewards. Also one time around North Atlantic gyre.
Crew-mom and pop. Extra crew only when required by insurance.
Expense- more concerned by the difference between in and out plus annual expense as this is the cost of ownership. Willing to lose ~150-$200k in constant dollars over period of 10 years plus annual expense.
Suitable one offs in steel in North America have no market. Buying in the Netherlands or France is an option but boat would likely need to return there for sale when we are done. Diesel ducks have changed from what I can gather. Read Moby Duck’s website for details. Would do a DD as there’s a cult following so resale feasible. Personally have no aversion to Fe but because I’m an American economics are unfavorable. Same for wood epoxy or plank on frame.
Want old school solid grp up to the hull deck joint. As concerned about other boats , debris and other strikes above the waterline as below. Believe availability and cost of repair to original strength favors solid grp in a FD cruising boat.
Want at least 90 degrees AVS, collision bulkhead and minimal down flooding risk. Agree weather forecasting has improved dramatically but they still get it wrong all too often. You only care about hyper local weather and its there they are the weakest.
Want belt and suspenders for key systems so that includes some form of get home.
Want some form of stabilization. Preference is fins.
Don’t want a project boat. I’m a dust farter and life’s too short. Been there and done that. It always takes more time and money than you think and you never get either back.

You're in a bit of a tough spot for choices. Pretty much down to the various passagemakers and not much else, as your needs are just a bit beyond what many of the more capable coastal cruisers can provide.

 

[OldDan1943]

If you run out of places to spend your money, there is always the Sealander.

https://sealander.de/en/

 

[Hippocampus]

R we’ve looked at ~10 boats in person. KKs, one offs, and N. All way overpriced due to covid demand. We are willing to accept that cost. Also looked at new builds. Lag time 1 1/2-2years so decided better off to out wait the Covid bubble as times probably the same and prefer non turbo, mechanically controlled engines. At present most interested in a N40,43,46 or 47 or a DD. Surprisingly those we’ve seen are either poorly maintained or set up for coastal. Fine with a coastal boat as refit to passage maker can be done but not with a poorly maintained boat. So we wait and engage in other activities.

A-The Tollycraft 48 is a semi displacement hull with huge engines for my program. It is a great boat but lacks range and the belt and suspenders approach required for long term distance cruising. Our fall migration is 1500 nm on the rhumb line . Expect 2k. Often Bermuda isn’t a good obligate break point. You can do it by going down the east coast then out along the island chain as an alternative. Do that once and you won’t want to do it again. It’s ok to do it that way going home in the spring as it’s with current and wind behind you but not down. Heaving and pitching isn’t much fun. Fuel costs have a huge variance. Good to be able to pick your spots. Always amazed by how much stuff and weight you add to a boat when the program is self sufficient cruising. Full displacement makes sense. With all due respect although a fine boat it would be a poor choice.

 

[Art]

If you run out of places to spend your money, there is always the Sealander.

https://sealander.de/en/

When they make em in the 60' loa and 18' beam mode... I'll consider!

 

[rslifkin]

A bigger SD or planing boat would have a couple of downfalls for your use. Downflooding is a concern on some, and AVS would be a concern on pretty much any of them. Although if you look at what people will do with a sport fish, a good planing hull can go through a heck of a lot and come out ok on the other side, at least on runs where you can just go the speed the hull needs in those conditions rather than trying to stay slow to stretch your range. Fuel range is an issue on a lot of them (particularly the ones that aren't good at going slow in rough weather), but as you go bigger, range tends to get better.

Redundancy would be one of the things I wouldn't worry as much about. Most of the faster boats have twins (and will comfortably attain their normal below hull speed slow cruise with 1 engine shut down, which many main+wing setups won't), so you already have redundant propulsion. Redundancy in other systems can be added as needed.

In general, I agree, a lot of the stuff out there just isn't what you want or need.

But if you're waiting, there's always the option of picking up something more suited to coastal use that won't depreciate much and will have plenty of people that want to buy it, use it for a year or 3 for some coastal cruising, then when you find the boat you want to get back to a wider range of cruising grounds, trade up and go for the big trips.

 

[backinblue]

https://thainelectric.com/

A local company is making a very sexy electric playboy boat. Would be perfect for Lake Washington. Seen one yesterday in Everett Marina while I was varnishing, caught my eye and had to look it up to see what it was.

I like it.

I looked at the website, that is a MUCH smaller boat than I imagined. Still interesting I guess.

 

[oscar]

When the length increases so does the beam and draft. Consider a sphere increasing in radius by 50% - it increases in volume by 337%.

Read this again folks. SCIENCE!

 

[Art]

R we’ve looked at ~10 boats in person. KKs, one offs, and N. All way overpriced due to covid demand. We are willing to accept that cost. Also looked at new builds. Lag time 1 1/2-2years so decided better off to out wait the Covid bubble as times probably the same and prefer non turbo, mechanically controlled engines. At present most interested in a N40,43,46 or 47 or a DD. Surprisingly those we’ve seen are either poorly maintained or set up for coastal. Fine with a coastal boat as refit to passage maker can be done but not with a poorly maintained boat. So we wait and engage in other activities.

A-The Tollycraft 48 is a semi displacement hull with huge engines for my program. It is a great boat but lacks range and the belt and suspenders approach required for long term distance cruising. Our fall migration is 1500 nm on the rhumb line . Expect 2k. Often Bermuda isn’t a good obligate break point. You can do it by going down the east coast then out along the island chain as an alternative. Do that once and you won’t want to do it again. It’s ok to do it that way going home in the spring as it’s with current and wind behind you but not down. Heaving and pitching isn’t much fun. Fuel costs have a huge variance. Good to be able to pick your spots. Always amazed by how much stuff and weight you add to a boat when the program is self sufficient cruising. Full displacement makes sense. With all due respect although a fine boat it would be a poor choice.

48' Tolly - Coastal cruiser... not trans oceanic.

 

[RonR]

I looked at the website, that is a MUCH smaller boat than I imagined. Still interesting I guess.

Yes its not big. But man it looks cool !

 

[backinblue]

Yes its not big. But man it looks cool !

Agreed, but it's more of a $50K toy. At 16' and 4'8" beam, your 4 passengers better be on the svelte side!

 

[Hippocampus]

Take a look at the Arksen 45’. Think that’s some cool engineering and serves the needs of the way many use their boats. Less $$ than a Zlander as well.

https://www.boatinternational.com/yachts/news/arksen-reveals-adventure-power-boat-series--42577

 

[boatruptcy]

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2009-houseboat-custom-7629824/

Damn

 

[socalrider]

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2009-houseboat-custom-7629824/

Damn

AVS estimate? 10deg?

 

[wkearney99]

https://www.boattrader.com/boat/2009-houseboat-custom-7629824/

Omg, that's spectacularly craptastic!

Single gasoline 200hp volvo I/O. Docking would be entertaining in anything other than a very light wind or current, even with the added "48v $30k german bow thruster".

 

[stubones99]

three decks and two heads?