I guess price no longer matters.

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toocoys

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I've been watching this Parlay Revival channel on youtube. Yeah, he bought a hurricane damaged Lagoon catamaran, but through doing his repairs he uncovered a metric **** ton of quality issues that the factory missed. I mean the shoddy fiberglass work is absolutely ridiculous.

I would expect that a $750K (or more) boat would have better craftsmanship than what's being shown.

ETA: The new episode I'm on looks like it's exposing a design flaw by Lagoon. Apparently 10 other owners have come forward with the same issue. It'll be interesting to see where this all goes.
 
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We toured a new Leopard 50 at the boat show in Annapolis. It looked great and had a good feel to it. So we chartered one for a week with a well known sailboat charter company. The boat was absolutely crap. Poor workmanship abounded, poor design, low quality materials, poor customer service from the factory. We took our deposit back and our boat yen has lead us to trawlers.
 
I've been watching this Parlay Revival channel on youtube. Yeah, he bought a hurricane damaged Lagoon catamaran, but through doing his repairs he uncovered a metric **** ton of quality issues that the factory missed. I mean the shoddy fiberglass work is absolutely ridiculous.

I would expect that a $750K (or more) boat would have better craftsmanship than what's being shown.

ETA: The new episode I'm on looks like it's exposing a design flaw by Lagoon. Apparently 10 other owners have come forward with the same issue. It'll be interesting to see where this all goes.

I don't think Lagoon is aware of the power of internet in this case. They should have given him a new boat with an NDA. This is going to hurt them, and rightfully so.
 
Price does matter, but $750K doesn't buy quality in a large sailboat. A really well worked out production 45' will have 15,000 hours of labor in it. So that's $50/hr fully burdened, before materials, profit, etc. You will need to cut corners to get there. Lagoon hasn't enjoyed a reputation of quality for quite some time.
 
Price does matter, but $750K doesn't buy quality in a large sailboat.


During part of his repairs he crawls into the space between the top deck and the hulls. The factory had placed large amounts of glue where the top deck was supposed to lay on the supports of the hulls. The top deck NEVER EVEN TOUCHED THE GLUE, which lead to a bouncy floor. The globs of glue just dried in the same shape they came out of the glue gun.

Even at the cheapest of labor costs, there is absolutely no excuse that could be made for this kind of workmanship.
 
This must be why I do everything myself?
 
This must be why I do everything myself?

Hah! Exactly! At least you know who to blame.

Agree that Lagoons have not had a great reputation, with the exception of the earlier TPI models. I am distressed to hear about the Leopard 50 - in my mind at least they were built to a higher standard. Perhaps that's changed. I have an older Leopard 46-ish in mind as a next boat at some point if the stars align.
 
We toured a Lagoon at the U.S. Boatshow in Annapolis when it was raining. There were no fewer than five leaks we saw. We stopped considering a Lagoon that day. When we were onboard and asked the broker about the leaks she got fairly offended and huffy (since she was French, I guess).
 
From what I understand, cats are pretty weight sensitive. I have often wondered if that ongoing struggle to keep them light contributes to what often feels like poor build quality. It seems like hardware, hatches, etc. are all sort of "flimsy" feeling compared to heavy trawlers. I have been on one Africat that did not feel that way, but my time on it was limited so I am not promoting that brand. What little time I spent on it, it just seemed sturdier than others. Still, though, there is no excuse for the workmanship described above.
 
The factory had placed large amounts of glue where the top deck was supposed to lay on the supports of the hulls. The top deck NEVER EVEN TOUCHED THE GLUE, which lead to a bouncy floor. The globs of glue just dried in the same shape they came out of the glue gun.

This type of construction (premolded parts set in "spooge"*) has become quite typical of the value priced boat market. It takes more labor properly to tab the bulkheads and deck in place. It has caused a lot more problems when used to build the keel grid systems in ballasted monohulls, the grid breaks loose from the spooge and then the keel falls off, with results that are typically not good.

While you can blame the builders, it is really the customers at the root of the problem: How big it is? How much does it cost? How many does it sleep? are much higher in priority than How well was it built?

*usually a methacrylate adhesive which some manufacturers advertise can fill gaps up to 1"!
 
It seems like hardware, hatches, etc. are all sort of "flimsy" feeling compared to heavy trawlers.


It's not just cats.

Two or three years ago we took a small cruise and docked for the weekend. A new Beneteau Grand Turismo 45, which was said to have been hull #2, docked up next to us. We got to talking to the owner and he gave us a tour. I was surprised at how "flimsy" everything felt. Doors and walls reminded me of what you'd find in a light weight travel trailer. It was rather disappointing.
 
Problem is stick built versus gluing together modules. See this issue in all types of current production runs. Doesn’t matter if it’s Beneteau and it’s various bought out companies or any other large scale manufacturer of sail or power. Our prior Outbound was stick built. Done at a fraction of the cost of a HR, Hinckley, Amel or others. But stick built and done right. Best d-mn sailboat I ever had. Out the door properly kitted out for blue water ~$750k at present.
Outremer, Rapido and Catana still do bluewater multis right in production runs. NEB and others do make use of adhesives correctly. There’s nothing wrong with the use of adhesives or modern construction techniques. However once you have spaces you can’t see you’re dependent on someone else having done it correctly. I’m not good with that. So all the boats I’ve owned have been stick built.
 
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What do you mean by stick built?

Stick built would mean the interior is built piece by piece inside the hull, rather than being a pre-made big piece of molded fiberglass glued in place to form the majority of the interior.
 
It's not just cats.

Two or three years ago we took a small cruise and docked for the weekend. A new Beneteau Grand Turismo 45, which was said to have been hull #2, docked up next to us. We got to talking to the owner and he gave us a tour. I was surprised at how "flimsy" everything felt. Doors and walls reminded me of what you'd find in a light weight travel trailer. It was rather disappointing.
Now you know why they are called "Bendy Boats.
 
I've been watching this Parlay Revival channel on youtube. Yeah, he bought a hurricane damaged Lagoon catamaran, but through doing his repairs he uncovered a metric **** ton of quality issues that the factory missed. I mean the shoddy fiberglass work is absolutely ridiculous.

I would expect that a $750K (or more) boat would have better craftsmanship than what's being shown.

ETA: The new episode I'm on looks like it's exposing a design flaw by Lagoon. Apparently 10 other owners have come forward with the same issue. It'll be interesting to see where this all goes.
I believe the number of broken bulkheads is up to 63.
Lagoon is owned by Beneteau, and too me this explains a lot about the quality.
In my opinion, a cored hull boat is always in danger of undetected rot. If you buy a boat the has a cored hull below the water line you’ve made a mistake. I have a DeFever and only the decks are cored. I’ve been through five hurricanes and the worst that’s ever happened is my antenna were broken off.
 
Bulkhead Issues

I believe the number of broken bulkheads is up to 63.
Lagoon is owned by Beneteau, and too me this explains a lot about the quality.
In my opinion, a cored hull boat is always in danger of undetected rot. If you buy a boat the has a cored hull below the water line you’ve made a mistake. I have a DeFever and only the decks are cored. I’ve been through five hurricanes and the worst that’s ever happened is my antenna were broken off.

I think You're right about the higher number of owners that have discovered cracked bulkheads. Poor Colin thought he was doing owners a favor by alerting them to the issues and showing them how to determine if their boat had similar issues and he is only asking Lagoon to acknowledge the problems and tell owners how to fix the problems.
Instead, Lagoon has stopped communicating with him and he is getting a ration of sh*t from owners that are seeing their resale values plummet.
He has paid for all his materials himself and completed all the inspections, corrections ,and re installation himself with no help from Lagoon.
Owners are wanting copies of all his communications with Lagoon and Colin wants out of the equation. He wants Lagoon to step up and give answers so he can continue his journeys.
Lagoon doesn't want to admit any issues but the public would feel more inclined to purchase a Lagoon if they had a fix and made corrections on new builds at the factory. I doubt anyone that is aware of the issues will be willing to buy a used Lagoon unless the structural issues have been corrected or the bulkheads tabbed and glassed correctly so they won't happen in the future.

At least in Leopards, they have a steel or aluminum I beam that spans the two hulls to get support and rigidity....On the build that Nick and Terysa are having made, the bulkheads are carbon fiber, tabbed and glassed as they should be.
 
There are a number of threads in parallel (and have active for some time) over on our sister site 'cruisersforum.com'. A few other folks have already reported what Parlay Revival has found. Unfortunately, Colin McCrae's popularity with his appearance on Below Deck: Sailing Yacht has driven a lot of traffic to his site. Plus it is a very hands-on You Tube channel, not snorkling and touring the same island as all the other channels.
 
There are a number of threads in parallel (and have active for some time) over on our sister site 'cruisersforum.com'...

Yep, there are couple of Lagoon conversations on CF right now,

  1. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/lagoon-cats-now-on-discount-253214.html
  2. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/broken-lagoon-250820.html
Going to be interesting to see this is handled. One of the discussions mentioned 80 some odd owners reporting the problem.

As this spreads through the Internet, Lagoon has a major problem if they do not handle this correctly.

Later,
Dan
 
I was fortunate to find a 1973 GB 36 last fall, fairly priced. It was apparent that it needed some work on deck & on the cabin, but the "bones" seemed good, and was enthusiastically verified by he surveyor. I am not familiar with many boat lines these days, but I believe there is something to "They don't build em like that anymore".
 
Problem is stick built versus gluing together modules. See this issue in all types of current production runs. Doesn’t matter if it’s Beneteau and it’s various bought out companies or any other large scale manufacturer of sail or power. Our prior Outbound was stick built. Done at a fraction of the cost of a HR, Hinckley, Amel or others. But stick built and done right. Best d-mn sailboat I ever had. Out the door properly kitted out for blue water ~$750k at present.
Outremer, Rapido and Catana still do bluewater multis right in production runs. NEB and others do make use of adhesives correctly. There’s nothing wrong with the use of adhesives or modern construction techniques. However once you have spaces you can’t see you’re dependent on someone else having done it correctly. I’m not good with that. So all the boats I’ve owned have been stick built.

While I agree with all the criticism here of Lagoon and Beneteau and certain others, I do not agree with the overall dismissal of production boats and techniques. Westport is a production boat. Even Searay has solid quality. Sunseeker, Princess, Ferretti, Riva, Pershing, and even to an extent Heesen. This is just shoddy workmanship.

Fountaine-Pajot is also a French builder of Catamarans and with far better quality. Lagoon is just pushing out boats as fast as possible without proper attention to quality. Oh, and maybe price does matter. They cost more than Lagoon.
 
Ya gotta wonder how these defects got by all of the subsequent surveys during transfer of ownership of Lagoons.

Or maybe not.

May not have been caught due to the number of out of date fire extinguisher inspection tags and spider stress cracks in the gelcoat...
 
Ya gotta wonder how these defects got by all of the subsequent surveys during transfer of ownership of Lagoons.
You probably need to watch some of the videos, the owners have to take apart the door jambs to see the bulkheads, they are not able to see them otherwise. They specifically state you can't see the problems with and endoscope camera either. They also show how to take apart the door jamb in with a spatula and kitchen utensils, so it appears to be a fairly easy task.

Doubt many surveyors are going to start taking door jambs apart, they might now that this problem has been found to be so prevalent, but prior doubtful.
 
B there’s a basic difference between stick built and modular construction. In stick built you can see and get to everything without major destruction action. You can build a poorly constructed stick built boat. A few tabs to hold a bulkhead or a resin rich layup. But with modular you’re dependent on the modules being glued together correctly. Once they are you have no ideal how it was done, if it was done correctly and just have to wait for failure to know it was done inadequately unless you employ some form of destructive examination. A fundamental difference. Yes, you can build a good or bad modular boat and a good or bad stick built. However it’s so much easier to determine which it is with stick built. Wouldn’t bet my life on a lagoon out of sight of land let alone passage.

Personally would avoid buying a new and definitely used modular boat unless I had strong evidence the builder always adhered to best practices.

The EU system had a lot of builder input from what I can gather. It rates boats only at the time they leave the factory. Given metals oxidize and corrode, and boats work in a seaway that system is meaningless for a boat that has seen any use imho. For all its warts ABYC at least considers use and service life as did Norske and Lloyd’s.

There’s a huge difference in my mind between modular and stick built. A 40 year old Cherubini ketch went on huge seawall granite stones having broken free in a hurricane. Pounded on them and suffered damage. Brought to Delran NJ and hull restored to original strength. That part of the interior unscrewed to allow access, refinished and good as new. Solid glass and solid wood with mechanical fasteners. A modular boat would have been totaled. Reconstruction would have exceeded value. Modular boats are throw aways in general. A limited service life even without damage. Even a plank on frame wood boat can be kept in use for decades and decades at it original integrity.

USN did study service life for grp when resin and glass technologies were no where near the improvements that have developed since. Even back then service life was deemed so long as to be indeterminate. But they looked at stick built boats.

Have no problem with modules being used in a limited fashion. For things like showers and heads as long as it’s done in a fashion service and repair is accounted for. But the current mode of doing a hull in one mold, infill in another and deck/ house in a third then gluing them together leaves me cold. Sure that’s a simplification. There’s other modules. A grid to stiffen the hull and another for the engine(s) etc. but you get the idea. Limited access to electrical runs, hoses and other features that might fail or need service. No complete access to see structural integrity, great difficulty in repair. No thank you. Look at the way a Outremer is put together versus a Lagoon or a tenant boat to any of the fleet power cats in Caribbean charter service. Yes, I’d get on a Rapido 60 and go round the world. Much of it is modular and glued together. But that’s an exception not the rule at present.
 
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B there’s a basic difference between stick built and modular construction. In stick built you can see and get to everything without major destruction action. You can build a poorly constructed stick built boat. A few tabs to hold a bulkhead or a resin rich layup. But with modular you’re dependent on the modules being glued together correctly. Once they are you have no ideal how it was done, if it was done correctly and just have to wait for failure to know it was done inadequately unless you employ some form of destructive examination. A fundamental difference. Yes, you can build a good or bad modular boat and a good or bad stick built. However it’s so much easier to determine which it is with stick built. Wouldn’t bet my life on a lagoon out of sight of land let alone passage.

Personally would avoid buying a new and definitely used modular boat unless I had strong evidence the builder always adhered to best practices.

The EU system had a lot of builder input from what I can gather. It rates boats only at the time they leave the factory. Given metals oxidize and corrode, and boats work in a seaway that system is meaningless for a boat that has seen any use imho. For all its warts ABYC at least considers use and service life as did Norske and Lloyd’s.

There’s a huge difference in my mind between modular and stick built. A 40 year old Cherubini ketch went on huge seawall granite stones having broken free in a hurricane. Pounded on them and suffered damage. Brought to Delran NJ and hull restored to original strength. That part of the interior unscrewed to allow access, refinished and good as new. Solid glass and solid wood with mechanical fasteners. A modular boat would have been totaled. Reconstruction would have exceeded value. Modular boats are throw aways in general. A limited service life even without damage. Even a plank on frame wood boat can be kept in use for decades and decades at it original integrity.

USN did study service life for grp when resin and glass technologies were no where near the improvements that have developed since. Even back then service life was deemed so long as to be indeterminate. But they looked at stick built boats.

Have no problem with modules being used in a limited fashion. For things like showers and heads as long as it’s done in a fashion service and repair is accounted for. But the current mode of doing a hull in one mold, infill in another and deck/ house in a third then gluing them together leaves me cold. Sure that’s a simplification. There’s other modules. A grid to stiffen the hull and another for the engine(s) etc. but you get the idea. Limited access to electrical runs, hoses and other features that might fail or need service. No complete access to see structural integrity, great difficulty in repair. No thank you. Look at the way a Outremer is put together versus a Lagoon or a tenant boat to any of the fleet power cats in Caribbean charter service. Yes, I’d get on a Rapido 60 and go round the world. Much of it is modular and glued together. But that’s an exception not the rule at present.

I still disagree as one who has purchased many production type boats. Now the difference is between builders. It's also between buyers watching the build. You can observe just as much on a production type build as on a stick build and if you have the wrong builder on either or don't have someone on site to observe on either you can have issues. The problem isn't that Beneteau and subsidiaries are production builders, the problem is their methods and short cuts. There are sloppy stick builders as well. I know someone who just looked at a steel trawler built recently in Turkey, a luxury priced boat, but the workmanship was shoddy throughout and you do wonder based on all the poor work that is visible just walking aboard what is hidden that you can't see. Fact is, if you're not there during the build, you don't know and have to have a lot of trust in the builder.

I'll add that a good production builder can consistently achieve the same quality on boat after boat even more easily than the stick builder.
 
I still disagree as one who has purchased many production type boats. Now the difference is between builders. It's also between buyers watching the build. You can observe just as much on a production type build as on a stick build and if you have the wrong builder on either or don't have someone on site to observe on either you can have issues. The problem isn't that Beneteau and subsidiaries are production builders, the problem is their methods and short cuts. There are sloppy stick builders as well. I know someone who just looked at a steel trawler built recently in Turkey, a luxury priced boat, but the workmanship was shoddy throughout and you do wonder based on all the poor work that is visible just walking aboard what is hidden that you can't see. Fact is, if you're not there during the build, you don't know and have to have a lot of trust in the builder.

I'll add that a good production builder can consistently achieve the same quality on boat after boat even more easily than the stick builder.


The reference to stick built vs modular isn't a production boat or not thing. There are plenty of stick built production boats out there (mine included). Basically, it's the difference of whether the stuff inside the hull is assembled in place, vs pre-formed as one big piece and glued in.
 
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