Hello and question of 6pack license

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It's worse than hearsay. It is 100% unsubstantiated rumor and just factually not true. License or no license, you're in charge of the operation of the boat. I keep seeing this comment and not one time ever have I seen any evidence it's true.

I totally agree. There are too many of these “hearsay” statements that get repeated incessantly online because someone saw them online before. It wasn’t true then and it isn’t true now. We all need to take some responsibility to either only repeat what we know to be true, or just stay quiet on the topic if we don’t know. Repeating nonsense because you heard/read it before helps no one.
 
Regarding the "you are held to a higher standard" argument...

Over the years I have repeatedly asked if anyone can provide real evidence that this has ever happened to anyone. Nada. Zilch. Nothing. No one has ever been able to come up with any court case where someone involved in recreational boating was held to a higher standard just because they happened to have a USCG license at the time.

Make of that what you will, but I do not believe -- even for one moment -- that the "you are held to a higher standard" argument is anything more than an old wives tale, and a complete myth.

Yes, there isn't a higher standard, since as BandB notes, the standard for operation is the same - whatever it may be - regardless of your credential. It is just that the governing body requires the credential before some types of operation.

As for the I might put my future credential in jeopardy so maybe I shouldn't get one argument...well, if you don't have it now, then why would you care about losing that hypothetical credential in a future hypothetical enforcement action? A more logical concern would be credentialed professional mariners who rely on that credential for employment, choosing to recreate and then suffering an enforcement action as a result of some action or inaction during their personal time. I'm not saying that should be an overriding concern but it is at least logical.
 
I misstated the sea time requirement, it doesn't need to be within 5 years, just 360 total and 90 days within 3 years. You don't need the sea time to take the class (or at least the one I took) but do need it accounted for when you file with the CG. Even though the requirement was listed on the school's guidance, I could hear chatter in my class about how guys were going to account for their time. At least half of the class had recreational backgrounds and did not keep logs of their time spend on runabouts and smaller fishing boats. Filling out the form isn't too hard but you do need to figure it out.
 
I misstated the sea time requirement, it doesn't need to be within 5 years, just 360 total and 90 days within 3 years. You don't need the sea time to take the class (or at least the one I took) but do need it accounted for when you file with the CG. Even though the requirement was listed on the school's guidance, I could hear chatter in my class about how guys were going to account for their time. At least half of the class had recreational backgrounds and did not keep logs of their time spend on runabouts and smaller fishing boats. Filling out the form isn't too hard but you do need to figure it out.

In my case, aside from my own boats, during my career I was a government operator outside of "commerce" and so exempt from USCG credentialing requirements, and I never bothered to log my days of operation over many years. Something I am beating myself up about now :banghead: because in retirement I am interesting in achieving a masters credential. I've received guidance on possibilities for legally re-creating that record in a form acceptable to the USCG based on other supporting records such as boat logs that might exist but as a practical matter I will only be able to do so for a fraction of my total time, probably much less than the minimum 360 days.
 
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After teaching a couple hundred students or so in the 6 pack classes... I found these to be interesting.


1. Only a small percentage of "boating their whole lives" had much actual professional knowledge. They had plenty of boat handling skills and possibly weather and sea sense...but technical stuff...not much. They were good enough to be safe boaters for general cruising...mostly.



2. Well into the second hour of Aids to Navigation or Lights on buoys...tears were forming in some eyes that remembering all this would be tough to by test time.



3. A pretty good percentage of retirees wanted the piece of paper to hang on their wall as bragging rights....I can't fault them for that, after all it's only the most basic license and they were never gonna get a job with their background anyway. A smaller percentage were gonna charter small time and for local coastal/backbay work...good enough.


4. The younger crowd were working their way up some ladder. Most all knew they had a lot more to learn and more experience on the water before they were gonna be captain. Some were doing it to be legal 2nd captains on voyages lasting more than 12 hours.


5. Just about every graduate except for guys with lots of military or commercial experience....knew that they had plenty of more to learn and a lot more varied sea time to be "really salty"...they discovered the tip of the iceberg so to speak.
Then there were always those guys who showed up "knowing everything" and left with the same ego.


6. A surprising number finished the course, passed, but never filed with the USCG for all kinds of reasons.
 
When you work in a maritime job where your sea time is scattered over numerous boats but you were underway the preponderance of the time employed...a letter from the employer (up until recently) describing your duties and usual times underway was good enough. When I worked for an assistance tower, that's all we ever sent in, no sea time sheets unless time away from work that we wanted documented or on vessels outside the size the boss put in the letter.

Hmmm, many thanks for this. Perhaps the person I spoke with wasn't thinking my work schedule fit this model and so didn't mention it. It certainly did for a few years out of the total. I will follow up.
 
Hmmm, many thanks for this. Perhaps the person I spoke with wasn't thinking my work schedule fit this model and so didn't mention it. It certainly did for a few years out of the total. I will follow up.


Before I could remove and investigate further, you caught my now deleted post.


The sample letters the USCG have on their website do have a spot for days underway...I guess we did recreate those numbers from the number of tows we were sent out on and based on the hourly rate we towed...so we did have some documentation...but I am pretty sure that if you worked as a boat captain that regularly got underway several days a week....it wouldn't be a stretch and the USCG knows that, especially if a boss signs off on it.


The spirit is there .....though may not be the letter of the law.
 
Before I could remove and investigate further, you caught my now deleted post.


The sample letters the USCG have on their website do have a spot for days underway...I guess we did recreate those numbers from the number of tows we were sent out on and based on the hourly rate we towed...so we did have some documentation...but I am pretty sure that if you worked as a boat captain that regularly got underway several days a week....it wouldn't be a stretch and the USCG knows that, especially if a boss signs off on it.


The spirit is there .....though may not be the letter of the law.
That works for me, thanks.
 
After teaching a couple hundred students or so in the 6 pack classes... I found these to be interesting.


1. Only a small percentage of "boating their whole lives" had much actual professional knowledge. They had plenty of boat handling skills and possibly weather and sea sense...but technical stuff...not much. They were good enough to be safe boaters for general cruising...mostly.

When we moved to South Florida, I had documented sea time of over 2300 days and my wife had just under 1000 days. All our time was on an inland lake and in boats 30' and less. We had no professional knowledge. Handling the boat and docking and those things were second nature to us. Weather, sea sense, technical stuff, absolutely not. Safe boaters for lake boating, definitely. Safe boaters for coastal boating, perhaps in calm seas on a good day but I wouldn't say so. When we bought our first boats, we didn't take them out without captains.

Our first licenses were 25 Ton Inland. Took a while to get to 100 Ton Near Coastal and then almost immediately to 200 Ton. Slow to 500 Ton as it required days since first license. 500 Tons was nearly 5 years after first license.

Why? Lifelong learners? Pursuit of knowledge? Sheer enjoyment? We had decided boating was going to be a key part of our lives and we wanted to be as knowledgeable as possible. We're also not just nationally licensed but STCW endorsements (which adds considerable courses and costs). Have we gone overboard vs what we'd recommend for others? Definitely, but we enjoy learning. My wife's an educator and student and I've always looked to gain more knowledge in business so it's just natural for us. It's not for prize or title but just in valuing knowledge.

I'd suggest to anyone to think if there are things you'd like to learn more about in life in general. If they pertain to boating, look over the complete list of courses provided by schools like MPT. I do believe in regular coursework for professionals in any field. Some of the courses we've taken we have loved. For instance, anything with the simulators including Bridge Resource Management with Simulator Tasks, but rest assured that one isn't just fun and games pretending, it's challenging and stressful but I think could be of great value if ever faced with certain situations. It's one thing to recite Col Regs, but another to use them when you have to act quickly.

Some courses you hope to never need. I'd put Medical Person in Charge, Advanced Fire Fighting, and Survival craft and rescue boats in that group. After time in the fire lab, you're exhausted and ready to collapse. First sign of blood in our ER lab and I felt like I was going to pass out but then I imagined at sea and someone I was close to and knew I must push myself through.

My least favorite of everything is meteorology. Bores me to death, but important so I've done it. Marlinspike is nearly as low on my list but not quite. Also useful.

I believe if you're really planning on spending a lot of time on the water, then anything you can learn is useful. That includes classroom and hands on training. Do it not for a reward of some sort but just for the sense of accomplishment that comes with learning.

An example of learning after retirement just crossed my mind. What do you do after being President? You may speak or write, but George Bush pursued art. Most wouldn't call it great art although some of it has been well received. But you've held the highest position in the land and you keep learning something you enjoy.

I was saddened by a man I knew who worked until he was 79 and retired only when he physically had no choice. He never developed a single hobby in his life. He felt after retiring that he no longer served a purpose. I do recall his daughter crawling in his lap and saying "your purpose is being my daddy."

Pursue anything that you can be passionate about. One of those things for us is boating. Immerse yourself in your passions. Passion is what keeps you truly alive.
 
"6. A surprising number finished the course, passed, but never filed with the USCG for all kinds of reasons."


This doesn't surprise me at all.

The test is only one thin notarized copy of a graduation letter within a two inch high stack of documentation in the package sent to the USCG. Between the First Aid and CPR classes, sea time documentation, character letters, physical exam and eye exam the sheer volume of forms is daunting.



This is where my experience in the USCGAUX helped. I sure know how to fill in forms.
 
The courses I taught, we brought in first aid, CPR and even a DR for the physicals right in the class if they wanted to stay late for these bennies. We also helped a lot in answering the form questions, If I had time we would do it for a few minutes after class.


Couldn't do it in all the classes as the meeting place had rules, issues, scheduling problems...but I was semi retired so I figured what the heck and made it a little better when the school and I could work it out.


If you have the luxury of attending a school and there are choices, go with one of the more full service ones.



I am not sure why some didn't go through with it.
 
If you have the luxury of attending a school and there are choices, go with one of the more full service ones.

Wifey B: The good ones go above and beyond like you did. There are many if all you want is your OUPV license. However, the good ones will assist you in getting that but provide you good education and then they will assist you with any further efforts and keep you apprised of changes in the rules. They consider you one of their students for life. :)
 
. Continue to believe nothing teaches like experience. Especially supervised experience under a skilled mariner. Nothing assesses the value of that experience better than a scored practicum. Hence, hold yacht master as a more meaningful credential compared to the lower levels of US licensing.

Sure, experience is gold, especially hands on experience under supervision, really good.
Then this lucky experienced guy takes the test for a 6 pack, does that make him less of a Mariner…?
Don’t think so.
Your example is either OR, but some of us have plenty of sea time/experience; Then we took the schools, the testing and got the ticket.
If you are too lazy to do that, it is okay, we all make choices.

As for being held to a Higher Standard and that being a deterrent to getting a ticket?
What planet are you from?
If you are licensed and qualified you SHOULD be held to a higher standard.
Nothing wrong with that. Not rocket science being on a boat and helping the owners stay out of trouble. Or running your own boat for pleasure. Perfectly happy to be held to a higher standard, if that was an issue. But it ain’t, never was.

I had a 6 pack since 1985, then I went stupid and let it expire 5 year later.
Back into boating and sailing 1999 I did the entire thing over again, much harder this time.
(Perhaps because I was older)
Got a 50 ton then a few years later a 100 ton.
Lots of work, studying and testing. Not pleasant but I leaned a lot and it payed off, got my charter business and need to keep up with new stuff and the Rules, etc.
All good, no negatives.
Really.
 
Captains License

I qualified for the Masters License.
The paperwork was a the real pain!!!!!
The tests were daunting when I first looked into this.
The test in hindsight were easy after the US Captains Training course.

I am a better operator after getting my Masters.
Did I say the paperwork was a real pain in the #@$%.

Greg
 
I took the 6pack class from Flagship Maritime last year. They are a full service school; I was very impressed by the excellence of the instructors!

When it came down to documenting my sea days, boy was I glad that I have always kept detailed logs!! ( I learned that practice from my Dad) It was difficult for a lot of the students to come up with the documentation…
 
I took the 6pack class from Flagship Maritime last year. They are a full service school; I was very impressed by the excellence of the instructors!

When it came down to documenting my sea days, boy was I glad that I have always kept detailed logs!! ( I learned that practice from my Dad) It was difficult for a lot of the students to come up with the documentation…

Documenting the Sea Days is a challenge but the USCG is also reasonable. If they asked for the day and the hours, it would be nearly impossible for most of us. Also, proving ownership could be a problem but I had kept those records back to childhood. Also, I had service records and most of the time the dealers indicated engine hours. I only got one brief request for additional information and was easily able to prove it. They picked my 22' Sea Ray Pachanga that I had from the age of 17 to 22 so was over 20 years earlier. I had 471 days on it. I said average of 5 hours per day underway so essentially 2,355 engine hours minimum. Well, when I traded it, I had 4200 engine hours on it. All the additional was the two hour afternoons and such I couldn't claim.

If anything I likely underestimated my time. I knew that every weekend during the summer I was on the boat. During the winter, I knew every chance I was and looked back at the weather for every winter weekend. I only claimed days it was warm and yet I know I sometimes got out when it was in the 30's and even when it was snowing on the lake (a real rarity for snow on our lake). However, I had more than 6 times what I needed for a six pack and 3 times for Master.

A lot of effort but worth it.
 
I had a 1600 master oceans license and never took a course that wasn't required. None of it is such a mystery that you need to have it revealed by someone else and no matter what you need to do some practice anyway.
 
I had a 1600 master oceans license and never took a course that wasn't required. None of it is such a mystery that you need to have it revealed by someone else and no matter what you need to do some practice anyway.

STCW has added a lot of courses to the regimen.
 
STCW has added a lot of courses to the regimen.

STCW courses are required.. He mentioned that he never attended courses that Weren't required.. I'm sure he attended STCW courses if he was still sailing on his license.
.. He may have given up his license at this point.
 
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STCW courses are required.. He mentioned that he never attended courses that Weren't required.. I'm sure he attended STCW courses if he was still sailing on his license.
.. He may have given up his license at this point.

Actually an STCW endorsement wasn't required until recently. He was speaking in past tense, so I assumed before they were required. Perhaps I was wrong.

However, for someone with a 1600 Master to get an STCW II/2 endorsement for 500 GT or more but less than 3000 GT requires Advanced Ship Handling, Advanced Stability, Advanced Meteoroiogy, Leadership and Management Skills, Search and Rescue, Management of Medical Care, Basic and Advanced Fire Fighting within 5 years, and depending on the ship's equipment, may require Radar, ARPA, GMDSS, and/or ECDIS.

Now, if he's still active or if he was today, I'm sure he'd also have all those, but it's added a good bit to the required courses. That's all I was trying to say. Most people do just take the required courses, but the optional courses we took, became required for STCW. That's why many also just go with the National License.

Also for those new to the endorsement, assessments are required.

The other point is that today with these courses added, there are really far fewer optional courses to take. Main options are for captains to take some engineering or the reverse. While we have an Engineer who also holds a Captain's license, today's rules make that far more difficult if not impossible for current applicants. In the past, time could be counted toward both licenses, but now it cannot be.
 
STCW has added a lot of courses to the regimen.
I held a STCW 3000gt master oceans, STCW requirements are basically the same as upper level USCG license requirements and include ECDIS, GMDSS, ARPA. I also held a master of uninspected fishing industry vessels 5000gt license

I had to place my license into continuity (I had a dream I might get it back someday) in 2013, the new requirements were begun in 2012 with required courses added each year until 2017 so mariners and employers could keep step. Much of it like ship handling could be waved with adequate experience I believe, others like security required a short course. Obviously I still don't have my license so I don't keep up that well. More to the question of the thread it's my belief most of what one needs for an OUPV or other lower level licenses are skills anyone could master with some home study. Many here wouldn't have the tonnage yet for much more than that. I suppose it's more an issue of what method helps you learn better, self study or a structured course.
 
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We have thought about getting the OUPV license, I already have some of the requirements, get randomly drug tested, etc, but the paperwork now, and in the future, makes us question what is the reason to have the license.

Having the KNOWLEDGE is key but is having the credentials worth the hassle?

Right now, our answer is no, but we would like to take one of the classes and pass the test to get the KNOWLEDGE.

There is one person, either here on TF or on Cruising Forum, who went before a judge, and the judge mentioned being held to a higher standard. The higher standard argument does not make sense to me, what is important is to have the knowledge, and the credentials if they really help, and/or are required.

Later,
Dan
 
I held a STCW 3000gt master oceans, STCW requirements are basically the same as upper level USCG license requirements and include ECDIS, GMDSS, ARPA. I also held a master of uninspected fishing industry vessels 5000gt license

Very impressive. The STCW does require several additional courses. The one that no one could get around is the Leadership and Management and for someone who had been doing it for decades that one always brought complaints and it's a 5 day course.

Unlimited tonnage on US license is the one we'll never reach as it requires 360 days on vessels over 1600 GT.

I am impressed by commercial captains and all you have taken over the years plus the hands on experience and can easily see no sensible courses beyond the required.

I know nothing about the fishing licenses.
 
Very impressive. The STCW does require several additional courses. The one that no one could get around is the Leadership and Management and for someone who had been doing it for decades that one always brought complaints and it's a 5 day course.

Unlimited tonnage on US license is the one we'll never reach as it requires 360 days on vessels over 1600 GT.

I am impressed by commercial captains and all you have taken over the years plus the hands on experience and can easily see no sensible courses beyond the required.

I know nothing about the fishing licenses.

Fishing is sort like towing, a world unto itself. My first license was an oil and mineral license to operate crewboats in the GOM, something that's been gone now for years.
 
Actually an STCW endorsement wasn't required until recently. He was speaking in past tense, so I assumed before they were required. Perhaps I was wrong.

However, for someone with a 1600 Master to get an STCW II/2 endorsement for 500 GT or more but less than 3000 GT requires Advanced Ship Handling, Advanced Stability, Advanced Meteoroiogy, Leadership and Management Skills, Search and Rescue, Management of Medical Care, Basic and Advanced Fire Fighting within 5 years, and depending on the ship's equipment, may require Radar, ARPA, GMDSS, and/or ECDIS.

Now, if he's still active or if he was today, I'm sure he'd also have all those, but it's added a good bit to the required courses. That's all I was trying to say. Most people do just take the required courses, but the optional courses we took, became required for STCW. That's why many also just go with the National License.

Also for those new to the endorsement, assessments are required.

The other point is that today with these courses added, there are really far fewer optional courses to take. Main options are for captains to take some engineering or the reverse. While we have an Engineer who also holds a Captain's license, today's rules make that far more difficult if not impossible for current applicants. In the past, time could be counted toward both licenses, but now it cannot be.
STCW has been around since 2000. Was required shortly after that for higher tonnage licenses. If he was working in the industry on a 1600 ton license, his company "required it" well before it was mandatory. I took it it in 2000. They said it would be a one time event...until the schools lobbied for a 5 year renewals and all of a sudden it wasn't. I was working in NY at the time and companies made it mandatory early on
 
STCW has been around since 2000. Was required shortly after that for higher tonnage licenses. If he was working in the industry on a 1600 ton license, his company "required it" well before it was mandatory. I took it it in 2000. They said it would be a one time event...until the schools lobbied for a 5 year renewals and all of a sudden it wasn't. I was working in NY at the time and companies made it mandatory early on

Similarly it was in for our initial licenses so never an issue but we had a lot of friends and acquaintances in the recreational field for whom it was a significant issue and the final year before being a firm requirement the schools were packed. A lot of people put it off and then panicked as doing a crossover was fairly simple but having to go back and do it wouldn't have been.

Biggest shock I saw on one captain's face was he was adamant that all he needed was USCG because he only did the US and the Bahamas. Then I pointed out he had to have it for the Bahamas. He was at MPT the next day begging for help.

I'm sure commercial industry was far ahead of where recreational was, especially recreational up to 500 Tons.
 
Hello
We are in the process of buying a trawler for major travel on the East Coast and parts of the great loop. I have been boating nearly my whole life and feel very confident in taking on this challenge. That said, I am looking at taking the Captains License online. Anyone have experience with these providers? Is it worth it?

Thanks


This may have been answered, apologies if I repeat others before reading the whole thing...


If you do not intend to use the license commercially, there is almost no point it taking the course. Yes it is a good course, but you can get the same thing as just courses with the CG Auxiliary / Power Squadron, and likely other sources. You may get a slight ins discount, but would likely take 10 years or more to offset the Mariner's course costs. I highly encourage all boaters to educate themselves, but obtaining a USCG commercial license is not the most cost effective way, unless you intent to use that license. Full Disclosure, I do carry a 50T Master license, and while I don't use it full time, i do take on deliveries and training clients here and there. If I didn't I would have just followed the advice I gave. :)
 
Both my wife and I went through MLS and were pleased with the program. Good material and help was available if needed. Both have Masters with sail endorsements.
 
Took OUPV at one school, took master 100T/assistance towing at another. Wound up teaching at the second for a number of years.

Agree with those who say you might get a lot more out of block courses taught by the different volunteer organizations. I am biased a bit by my experiences that the captain courses do spend a lot of time teaching tricks to help students pass tests rather than long term retention and in review before the tests.

Not saying all do, but I think it is inherent in the time alloted for the subjects and still get a good percentage of students passed.
 
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Took OUPV at one school, took master 100T/assistance towing at another. Wound up teaching at the second for a number of years.

Agree with those who say you might get a lot more out of block courses taught by the different volunteer organizations as I am biased a bit by my experiences that the captain courses do spend a lot of time teaching tricks to remembering some things to help students pass tests rather than long term retention and in review before the tests.

Not saying all do, but I think it is inherent in the time alloted for the subjects and still get a good percentage of students passed.

Except for the chartwork most of the tests are multiple guess anyway with the answers being available for study from a number of sources. Aside from forcing you to remember some of the rules of the road most is useless. The practical training like fire fighting, survival craft, personal survival and RADAR have great value.
 

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