Fun New West Marine Policy

[BandB]

Back up a bit. Alaskaprof was simply relaying what he was told by the employee. If you have questions if the WM employee was accurately describing their policy that is fine.

OTOH, doubting the veracity of what Alaskaprof relayed to us would not be acceptable.

I think what we're doubting is the competence of the employee Alaskaprof encountered.

 

[BandB]

Amazon, as a business, is nothing like Sears or Walmart. Their profitability isn't dependent on profits from items they sell as much as on other things. Their biggest profit center is their web services. Then you add in very slim margins on things they actually sell and you add the fees they collect from third party sellers. On things they sell, the profits aren't from margins on those items but from their sales of Prime memberships.

That makes them more like Costco than any other retailer. Decades ago there were attempts at wholesale clubs where you'd pay memberships and then buy at cost. They failed over time. However, Costco has made that model a huge success with their enormous membership numbers and that's where all their profits come from. Sams is less effective doing so. Amazon is very successful with Prime. Now Walmart is trying similar. Others are attempting similar. Membership is the trend of large retailers today and a successful strategy for some. Is it a permanent method of retailing or will it become less popular over time?

That's what makes price matching an impossible strategy. Why and how can I match prices with someone not profiting on the sales themselves. Pay me $12.99 per month or $119 per year and perhaps I can match Amazon.

I learned long ago that trying to compete on price is just not a successful long term strategy. Instead, beat them on service. It's the only way to go. That I can do.

 

[SteveK]

B&B
Costco has made that model a huge success with their enormous membership numbers and that's where all their profits come from.
Must disagree. There was a large write up about the costco model. If you shop there regularly and buy the same product which suddenly is not available then you will understand.

Costco talks to suppliers and tells them how many they want and what they are willing to pay, take it or leave it. Then they add the costco markup. They buy in such large volume that suppliers stand in line to give them there products with modest margins due to that volume of guaranteed sales.

 

[HTurner]

Costco has a standard -- that never varies -- 14% standard markup on all non Kirkland brands. Kirkland brand the in house brands get a flat 15% markup.


I like Amazon in that I have no human contact with them. Order online and it just appears on my doorstep. 5% back -- used on future purchases -- using their card. Yearly membership has more than paid for itself.



Sam's gets some of business. Depends on the product.

 

[Easternshore]

We just bought a new boat and have already spent thousands of dollars on new equipment. WMP will not get a penny of the new equipment budget.

Smart move! We stopped buying from west many years ago, high prices and poor service at our local wm store though the one 20 miles down the road in Ft Pierce did have better service, friendly and knowledgeable employees but outrageous prices. What is sad is the honest professional sales people at many west marine stores will suffer as west downsizes due to their poor customer service and unfriendly business model.

 

[FWT]

Amazon, as a business, is nothing like Sears or Walmart. Their profitability isn't dependent on profits from items they sell as much as on other things. Their biggest profit center is their web services. Then you add in very slim margins on things they actually sell and you add the fees they collect from third party sellers. On things they sell, the profits aren't from margins on those items but from their sales of Prime memberships.

That makes them more like Costco than any other retailer. Decades ago there were attempts at wholesale clubs where you'd pay memberships and then buy at cost. They failed over time. However, Costco has made that model a huge success with their enormous membership numbers and that's where all their profits come from. Sams is less effective doing so. Amazon is very successful with Prime. Now Walmart is trying similar. Others are attempting similar. Membership is the trend of large retailers today and a successful strategy for some. Is it a permanent method of retailing or will it become less popular over time?

That's what makes price matching an impossible strategy. Why and how can I match prices with someone not profiting on the sales themselves. Pay me $12.99 per month or $119 per year and perhaps I can match Amazon.

I learned long ago that trying to compete on price is just not a successful long term strategy. Instead, beat them on service. It's the only way to go. That I can do.

I was at Costco tonight, after work. I love Costco. And love owning their stock too.

Why?

You start out looking for good pricing. And they have that. But the loyalty comes from the quality of what they sell. Very good meat. Fruit and vegetables that are great quality and a deal, often half the price of my grocery store.

The real value is with their house brands. Value because EVERY house brand item I have tried is superior to other brands, by a wide margin. You quickly learn to go with the house brand if available in what you want.

I break the bank, completely fill the freezer and pantry every time I go.

 

[FWT]

Sears:

I started my banking career doing Fortune 500 work. Sears was a client for about 15 years beginning in the late 1970's into the early 1990's. Their story is long, complicated, but partially relevant here. I knew the company and management pretty well, from the retailer down through all of their important subsidiaries from Allstate, Dean Witter Discover, the credit card unit, Coldwell Banker, and so forth. The simple truth of it is the retailing company came to be run by people who were not retailers. They were people whose skills were financial strategy. Non-retailers can learn to become good retailers, but you at least have to try.

There was a great book on their history written in the 1980's. The Big Store. It was a good read if still in print.

 

[FWT]

Sears:

I started my banking career doing Fortune 500 work. Sears was a client for about 15 years beginning in the late 1970's into the early 1990's. Their story is long, complicated, but partially relevant here. I knew the company and management pretty well, from the retailer down through all of their important subsidiaries from Allstate, Dean Witter Discover, the credit card unit, Coldwell Banker, and so forth. The simple truth of it is the retailing company came to be run by people who were not retailers. They were people whose skills were financial strategy. Non-retailers can learn to become good retailers, but you at least have to try.

There was a great book on their history written in the 1980's. The Big Store. It was a good read if still in print.

Also, its easy for those who grew up with Visa and Mastercard as a normal fact of life to not appreciate what the old world was like. But back in the day you could buy on credit at Sears when consumer credit was much harder to come by. It gave them an advantage.

And that advantage allowed them to pay very low taxes. An additional advantage. The Installment Sales method of revenue recognition for taxes was alive and well. For tax purposes you only booked as revenue the amount of loan principal received that year. So for a washer sale financed over 4 years, you booked the entire expense, and a quarter or less of the revenue. For tax purposes a loss on the sale, while booking a profit under GAAP.

[That tax strategy was also used very effectively by Pulte Homes, a pioneer in in-house mortgage lending with the loans packaged into trust structure mortgage backed securities. Good while it lasted.]

As Visa / Mastercard got traction and Sears lost its advantage, and they lost the tax advantage in a similar timeframe, they pin-balled from one idea to another chaotically, led by non-retailers, looking for traction they never found.

 

[SoWhat]

That's what makes price matching an impossible strategy. Why and how can I match prices with someone not profiting on the sales themselves. Pay me $12.99 per month or $119 per year and perhaps I can match Amazon.

Impossible to compare $400B Amazon with $700M West Marine. Compare West with other <$1B retailers and I bet they rank near the bottom. Brick and mortar stores are relics and the ones who thrive find their niche and compete on price and service. West offers neither. They are doing a slow spiral down. Their prices are outrageous and they should rebrand as West Sporting Goods.

 

[BandB]

Impossible to compare $400B Amazon with $700M West Marine. Compare West with other <$1B retailers and I bet they rank near the bottom. Brick and mortar stores are relics and the ones who thrive find their niche and compete on price and service. West offers neither. They are doing a slow spiral down. Their prices are outrageous and they should rebrand as West Sporting Goods.

Hard to compare as totally different structures.

I do not agree that brick and mortar stores are relics. In fact, even department stores are seeing a nice recovery at this time.

I do agree that West is in a spiral down. New owners try to fine tune. Minor changes really. They don't address the long standing problems. They need to shake things up. Needs to be a huge change, not a small one. Needs to make everyone take notice that it's not the same store, but that requires two things, infusion of money and courage. Don't shrink, expand. Don't back down, attack. Don't cut back, add.

 

[mvweebles]

Interesting industry-trade rag interview of WM CEO who joined in 2018.

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/post-type-feature/q-a-with-ken-seipel

I liken WMs retail challenges to Best Buy who somehow clawed back from extreme online competition.

My wife and I discuss online vs B&M a lot. She dislikes Amazon and prefers giving her business to real people. I would too, but Amazon has really raised the bar. I've tried ordering online with local pickup at many retailers including large ones like Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, Target, Joanne's Farbics, 4 Wheel Drive Parts, and others. The transaction rarely goes smoothly, often with missing parts in the bag. Clearly, a lot of retailers are trying to play catchup but haven't made the investment to match fulfillment processes of Amazon.

As an aside, one of my favorite business books is "The Innovators Dillema" first published in the late 1990s. Premise is that a successful business model raises the internal bar for new investments - competitors are more apt to gamble on new concepts as their "do nothing" scenario (a constant in most business cases) is vacant. Sears was mentioned as a laggard even before the ascent of Amazon (Walmart was the predator).

Reading the WM CEO interview was interesting for me. But I have to wonder if WM has lost its customer base - I haven't been in one in 3 years. I used to anxiously await the new catalog and would read it cover go cover for the WM Advisor articles. Back when Randy Repasse and hia team ran WM, the brand had a commitment to boating and were instrumental contributors to many influencers in the industry such as Safety at Sea, SOLAS, and others. They didn't just setup booths at boat shows, but they drove important seminars and conversations. Chuck Hawley, CMO at the time, used to give detailed seminars for Transpac and Pacific Cup entrants. WM did some if the earliest anchor tests. Speaking of Chuck Hawley, he had more offshore sailing miles than anyone I knew - these folks were boating nuts, not just retailers.

I'm a very satisfied custoner of Defender and Hodges Marine. When I can find a local chandlery, I shop there, though when affiliated with a boatyard, prices can be breathtaking. In SF Bay, my go-to was Svendsens back when Sven (am avid Folkboat sailor and restorer) was alive. There was a guy in the chandlery who could intelligently answer any question imaginable. That changed when Svens sold a few years ago.

Ironically, WM incoherent customer service is partially responsible for me finding TF. I went into a WM in St Pete FL a out 5 years ago to begin my research on replacement electronics/radar. Their "expert" steered me to TheHullTruth forum. That led me to TF.

I cannot imagine ever returning to WM. But for me, that die was cast 10 years ago.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

In my mind, there are 2 kinds of things where a brick and mortar store shines, and doesn't necessarily have to perfectly compete on price with online shopping: things that are likely to be needed on short notice, and things someone will want to touch before buying.

 

[FWT]

Interesting industry-trade rag interview of WM CEO who joined in 2018.

https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/post-type-feature/q-a-with-ken-seipel


Peter

A good piece and fills in a lot of details about things. Thanks for that.

He's a retailer focusing on nuts and bolts retailing. GOOD.

He's almost there but still missing it on a key element: quality of in-store staffing. The few times I've left happy with my experience there is when the staffer was clearly a boater and knew boating. Seems to me its easier to teach a boater retailing, than teach a retailer boating. So he gets it on the purchasing staff. New head of HR plans to teach. How about a recruitment program to attract boaters to join store staff?

 

[HTurner]

Ken Seipel is no longer CEO. Eric Kufel is.


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...fel-as-chief-executive-officer-301351358.html


Marc Magliacano, a Managing Partner of L Catterton's Flagship Fund and a West Marine Director, commented, "We have known and worked with Eric for many years and he is a highly-respected strategic leader who brings significant multi-channel and multi-site expertise. His leadership will enable West Marine to strengthen its position at the forefront of the aftermarket marine products and services category. We thank Ken for building a solid business foundation and helping position West Marine as the category leader it is today, and we are grateful that the Board and management team will continue to benefit from his knowledge and experience in his new role on the board."

 

[kthoennes]

Gotta love that "corporate speak." Category leader, blah blah. Last time I was in a WM I couldn't find the hose clamp I needed, but I did find a really cool nautical collar for my dog.

I've been following this thread with interest because I've got no marine stores available at all within 250 miles (Minneapolis is the closest). If I can't get it at Walmart or a regular hardware store, then there is no boat project for me that doesn't involve online mail order, even a minor project like replacing a hose clamp. Bulbs, clamps, filters, marine grade wiring connectors - almost every task takes at least a week to complete waiting for parts to arrive, unless I have the part in my vast collection of spares. I can tell you all kinds of stories about ridiculously simple jobs that are always seven to ten day projects. I needed to replace a canvas snap. No snaps at the Walmart fabric/craft section. Week delay waiting for snaps.

That's all a lead in to my observation that in my experience, online mail order is no walk in the park either, and isn't necessarily a magic alternative or competitor to stores like brick and mortar WM. Over the past couple years I ordered parts from Crowley Marine three times that never arrived. Out of stock. Well then why did you sell me something you don't have? Next time I buy a car, imagine the car salesman selling me an Escalade for a really good price - but they don't actually have one on the lot. Congratulations on your new car! Oh, but sorry, we don't actually have one to sell you. Never mind.

Last week I ordered a tiny little carb spring from Parts Vu based in Florida. Took five days to get from the warehouse to shipping (if there really is a physical warehouse), then I got a shipping notice that they issued a tracking number - but the item isn't actually shipped yet. It's going to be a two or three week wait for that spring, if they actually have it at all. Who knows, maybe once again a vendor sold me something they don't really have.

This supply chain, sales and delivery problem is way bigger than just West Marine.

 

[jgwinks]

The instructions on a lot of items state in big letters "Do not return to store" then they give info on how to return to the manufacturer. Been that way for decades, and implies that the store might not get reimbursed for returns. Looks like WM is just enforcing that policy, and it's not really the retailer's job to handle the the manufacturer's warranty claims. There's a big difference between returning a defective item and an unused, unopened one that you can put back on sale. Refusing all returns might be a death wish, but so would refunding a lot of items and not getting reimbursed for them. That said, I avoid WM except as a last resort or if I need something NOW and the other local shops don't have it on the shelf. WM usually won't have it in stock either.

 

[psneeld]

Look at Lands End...you used to be able to buy dinghies and outboard motors from them.


LL Bean, Eddie Bower...... clothing giants much more than "outfitters" (in their niche).


I almost don't care about marine stores any more....think finding parts is hard? Try finding seasonal slips in fun places, anchorages even unless you leave the US.....even insurance....


It's enough to convince me I have been priced out of cruising and will resort traveling to remote spots by RV.


I've had a lifetime on the water so while I will not give it up totally...I recognize it's change.

 

[mvweebles]

Ken Seipel is no longer CEO. Eric Kufel is.


https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rel...fel-as-chief-executive-officer-301351358.html


Marc Magliacano, a Managing Partner of L Catterton's Flagship Fund and a West Marine Director, commented, "We have known and worked with Eric for many years and he is a highly-respected strategic leader who brings significant multi-channel and multi-site expertise. His leadership will enable West Marine to strengthen its position at the forefront of the aftermarket marine products and services category. We thank Ken for building a solid business foundation and helping position West Marine as the category leader it is today, and we are grateful that the Board and management team will continue to benefit from his knowledge and experience in his new role on the board."

Interesting. 3-year tenure for prior guy. New guy is from Leslie's Pool, prior was Hillshire Farms. VC firms want faster results I guess. Best I can tell, WM has successfully laid claim to a corner of the market with no customers. Cabelas, REI, and others have captured the outdoor enthusiast. Marine buyers left WM 10+ years ago. But they aspire to own the space of "leading tech-enabled platform for boating enthusiasts." Whatever that means.

Squeezed out.

Peter

PS. On second thought, I didn't leave West Marine. They left me.

 

[HTurner]

The new guy is a professional executive. I am sure what he knows about boats and boating would fit in a thimble. His resume indicates he knows more about Yoga and yoga studios.


My local West Marine is a well stocked fishing and tackle store, has plenty of rope, wire and paint. Everything else is catch me if you can...

 

[SteveK]

Does no one else online shop with Binnacle. You are missing out.

Defender has been mentioned, but prices with exchange have not worked. Fisheries Supply has sold me some odd stuff not easily found.
The B&M stores that were the go to are going the way of west. It was the people and customer service that held my attention. In the past, it was normal that they had what you wanted, if not they would get it promptly. Ironically that B&M store shut down and took over the location of west marine when they left Canada.

 

[psneeld]

The new guy is a professional executive. I am sure what he knows about boats and boating would fit in a thimble. His resume indicates he knows more about Yoga and yoga studios.


My local West Marine is a well stocked fishing and tackle store, has plenty of rope, wire and paint. Everything else is catch me if you can...

Just because this executive is a "professional executive" doesn't mean anything without asking him.


Most people who post on here are not professional mariners or work in the marine trades....do we discount their boating knowledge automatically?

 

[HTurner]

Just because this executive is a "professional executive" doesn't mean anything without asking him.


Most people who post on here are not professional mariners or work in the marine trades....do we discount their boating knowledge automatically?

I should know... I am a professional executive. I, however stay in my particular wheel house. I work for a public company. I know what I see.

 

[psneeld]

I would love to hear what a "professional executive" is.... actually not.



Don't bother, there are plenty of "professionals" on this forum that know something about boats too.....


Unless you have personal knowledge of this guy.... you have no idea what he knows about marine products.


I doubt the CEO of many companies that produce marine products have more than basic knowledge of their products.


Even sales people are often barely aware.

 

[HTurner]

Chortle

 

[BandB]

I doubt the CEO of many companies that produce marine products have more than basic knowledge of their products.

.

I would say that intimate product knowledge wouldn't be a critical requirement for a CEO. Knowledge of running similar companies would be and for that product knowledge they would surround themselves with expertise.

On the other hand, I'd suggest relevant experience is important. I would say experience running Leslie's would be good as opposed to experience in Revlon would be lacking. There's also value to understanding the owners in L Catterton.

We've seen nothing yet of what to expect under L Catterton as the deal was just entered into in late April and didn't close until May. I would say 2022 is when we know if they have a real plan or not.

 

[rwidman]

In my mind, there are 2 kinds of things where a brick and mortar store shines, and doesn't necessarily have to perfectly compete on price with online shopping: things that are likely to be needed on short notice, and things someone will want to touch before buying.

I agree. You can go into WM and put plumbing parts (elbows, couplings, etc.) together to see which ones will meet your needs. You can go in and buy a single foot or so of wire, cable or hose. You can pick up things that would require special shipping (chemicals, etc.).

You can buy an anchor, take it to your boat and if it doesn't fit, return it. If it's a trailered boat, they will let you take it out to the parking lot and try it without having to buy it first.

And at least some of the sales people know what they are talking about or know who to contact for product information The guy at WM called Garmin to find a solution for an issue I was having.

I won't be dishonest and claim to buy all my boating supplies and equipment at WM, but I would hate to see them close up in my city.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
All of the above comments concerning WM are quite valid IMO. MY experience a number of years back was: Immediately after they instituted the "price matching" model. I was looking for "zincs", as I recall, and asked the associate whether he could do better than the in store sticker price. He actually looked up a competitors website on his own phone and gave me the zincs for the much better price.


I was very impressed and made the decision to go back to WM for all my purchases. Not really a lot or big ticket items but they would have got ALL my business from that point on. Well. That plan didn't last very long so WM is again only on my "need it now" list of businesses.. LOTS of competition in Ft. Lauderdale.



Listen up WM. VERY simple business plan. Make the customer happy. A large number of sales at minimal profit more than makes up for many fewer sales at a large profit. Volume. Renegotiate with your suppliers to set up a mutually agreeable returns policy.



WAY too much clothing and fishing tackle, again IMO.

 

[Blissboat]

Sears: There was a great book on their history written in the 1980's. The Big Store. It was a good read if still in print.

"The Big Store: Inside the Crisis and Revolution at Sears," by Donald R. Katz (Viking Penguin, 1987). Still stands as one of the best business histories ever, IMO. Then chairman Edward Telling gave Katz unfettered access to the company's contorted attempt to reinvent itself when the business model that had sustained it for decades began to unravel. Highly recommend the book, which even 34 years after publication is thought provoking. Out of print, but not hard to find used.

 

[Comodave]

WM made the decision easy for me to shop elsewhere when they sent me a letter regarding my CG Auxiliary Port Supply account. The letter said while they value my service to the boating public and country, blah, blah they were closing the account. If they truly valued my service to the boating public and country they would not have closed my Port Supply account. They were still making money on the purchases I made through Port Supply but apparently not enough money to value my service. I had the account for over 15 years so there wasn’t any new setup costs involved, just not making as much money on my purchases as they wanted. Now they make no money off me. Maybe if they had not said how much they valued my service and just said they were closing the account I wouldn’t have been so pissed at WM.

 

[BandB]

WM made the decision easy for me to shop elsewhere when they sent me a letter regarding my CG Auxiliary Port Supply account. The letter said while they value my service to the boating public and country, blah, blah they were closing the account. If they truly valued my service to the boating public and country they would not have closed my Port Supply account. They were still making money on the purchases I made through Port Supply but apparently not enough money to value my service. I had the account for over 15 years so there wasn’t any new setup costs involved, just not making as much money on my purchases as they wanted. Now they make no money off me. Maybe if they had not said how much they valued my service and just said they were closing the account I wouldn’t have been so pissed at WM.

They largely destroyed Port Supply as they either closed accounts or reduced discounts to captains and industry professionals. Now, they had perhaps allowed too many to be Port Supply wholesale customers but once you do it, you can't take it away.