Fire Suppression

[stroutmail]

Comments made by a surveyor set me off on a research project on fire suppression on boats.

For background, I am a degreed Mechanical Engineer with several patents and have managed very large fleets of trucks and buses. I am also a pilot and a race car driver that is very familiar with fire suppression.

Surveyor recommended an automatic engine fire suppression system..the kind that goes off if engine compartment temp exceeds 180 degrees and that shuts engine down. Or..a port in the salon floor thru which I would spray the suppressant, so I did not have to lift floor panel.

First...there is no USCG regs for either if these solutions.

Second, there is no way I would want an auto shutdown for my engine and really no way I would want a system to go off automatically.

Third, the new Halon replacement fluids are not just made to "fill up" the engine compartment..they are made to reduce oxygen, BUT more importantly to COOL the burning liquid. So they should be fired at the flame...not just into the engine compartment.

Fourth..I have a single engine in a cavernous engine room.. Not much combustible material near engine.

Fifth..I bought a diesel engine boat because they almost never catch fire. Theoretically possible, but very improbable. The real risk is an electrical fire..from big batteries or wiring.

Sixth..I would much rather have a good warning alarm so I can put out a small fire than waiting for an inferno fueled by a couple hundred gallons of diesel.

Finally, I have read all of the current USCG regs as well as their published "guidance" and I can find no requirement for a USCG approved engine room system for a motorboat less than 65 feet.

My goal is to add a fire alarm system, and upgrade my extinguishers to Halotron..number and size in excess of USCG regs. In addition,as a bonus, probably will add a manually fired Halotron system to spray above batteries.

Comments?

 

[HopCar]

One thing to remember is you never want a flooding type system to go off while the engine continues to run. The engine will suck up the extinguisher and pump it out the exhaust before it can get to enough concentration to put out the fire.
One of my customers lost a big Bertram to fire. His son was running the Bertram from the Bahamas to Miami and he was following in a smaller boat. As they were nearing home he saw smoke coming out of the Bertram. He radioed his son who shut the engines down and pulled the fire system manually. He discovered that it had already gone off automatically. It didn’t shut down the engines first and the boat burned to the waterline.

 

[rgano]

Any automatic shutdown system is so designed to eliminate the potential of the engines in the space rapidly ingesting the calibrated concentration of the extinguishing agent thus reducing its ability to kill the fire. Mine has an override button enabling engine restart should the boat be in a dangerous situation like a barge or ship bearing down. I suppose the decision at that point is to restart to move, thus allowing the fire to reflash, and to live long enough to abandon ship before the fire consumes you. When Halon first went into our Navy ships, my indoctrination never indicated any requirement to have the gas spray on the fire to cool it, and in point of fact, it is quite impossible to predict the fire location - I think you misapprehend that one. I have sailed many ships and boat with automated fire suppression and am happy to continue doing so. There are a number of additional warning systems which might be used as an added layer of warning including fire detectors, additional heat sensors, etc. It is up to the owner to equip the vessel in a manner satisfactory to his needs because the USCG requirements are USELESS as even a most basic baseline.

 

[Comodave]

Just put a port in for a fire extinguisher to shoot through and be done with it. You won’t win the argument with the insurance company so just do what they want and get your insurance. They don’t need your business but you do need their insurance.

 

[stroutmail]

I did not misapprehend. Go to link: Halon Frequently Asked Questions

1211 vs 1301..1301 is used for flooding. Only nerds 3-7% concentration ...1211 is used for streaming to be sprayed directly on flame. Halotron is like 1211.

In race cars and airplanes..it is impossible to "flood" as there is no enclosed area..or in a closed cockpit it would inadvisable to flood. Spraying onto the flame is very effective and requires a much smaller amount of material.

If I have a kitchen fire, I would want to extinguish the fire immediately by spraying..I would not want to flood the room with halon.

There is a big difference between a large commercial or Naval vessel (or a large yacht with professional crew) compared to a little 36 foot motorboat. What is appropriate for a Boeing 747 is different than a Piper Cub. Even if I was on the flybridge, responding to a fire alarm would not take very long.

As for automatic systems..there has always been a debate on the merits of removing human control. Humans make mistakes and machines fail in both design and function. My personal choice is to use machines to assist humans, but never allow machines take over.

I think the 737 Max tradegy illustrates my point. I like auto pilot systems, but I never leave the helm unattended. I might let my Tesla drive itself, but I would never take my eyes off the road.




.

 

[stroutmail]

Just put a port in for a fire extinguisher to shoot through and be done with it. You won’t win the argument with the insurance company so just do what they want and get your insurance. They don’t need your business but you do need their insurance.

Probably not bad advice, but I really don't need hull coverage..just liability if I can find a carrier. Unless of course, if my boat fire while under way might endanger another boat. Rather than a port..I would prefer to install a proper manually remote activated spray system.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Stroutmail, I understand your concerns. My initial reaction to auto suppression and auto engine shutdown was similar to yours.

I want to suggest that rather than gocusing on automation vs human action. And that you ignore aircraft and race cars. Focus on your boat, cruising style, cruising area and crew.

I can't evaluate your situation, only describe mine. Both recreational cruising and my career on the water.

Being in remote areas, bordering on wilderness in the shoulder season or even the off season where help can be a long time coming. And I'm sailing with.a small crew, possibly only one of us has significant formal training. I NEED to know the fire fire is out. I can't enter the space safely to fight the fire.

Suppression must be remote and it is best if it is automatic. The fire MUST be extinguished.

When I think about the risk of a shutdown killing power when I need it vs a fire running out of control ii is clear to me, given my situation, I won't often be in a situation where engine shutdown is fatal. I can't say the same about an unextinguished fire.

In my opinion a 1st class small yacht system would be auto release on high temp. Auto engine shutdown on release. An over ride on the shutdown. Rate of rise alarm that trips before the auto release temp is reached. Engine room camera. Manual release.

That way when the rate of rise alarm trips I check via the camera to decide if this is a "real" fire, kill the engines if the boat won't be in immediate danger from loss of power then trip the manual release.

If the boat will be in immediate danger from loss of power I have the over ride.

If I'm asleep at the switch and don't hear the alarms or the alarms fail the suppression fires automatically. Fire is out.

Regarding comparing yacht auto fire suppression to the 737 Max automation problem. There is no comparison. The common auto release on yachts and small boats is glass vial that fails at 179 F. Pretty simple.

Keep in mind these small preengineered systems are a single shot. One pop is all you get. And as previously mentioned a running engine will quickly scavenge the space of the suppression agent.

 

[stroutmail]

Portage Bay. I think your reasoning is very sound. The "the rate of rise" alarm and the camera with the manual activation is the key...because the Captain is in control..unless he is not paying attention..THEN the machine takes over with auto engine shutdown and auto activation. Have not seen such a system, but I will look for one.

Thank you for your comment..very helpful

 

[Comodave]

I don’t know if liability only insurance requires a survey, but it probably does. The danger your boat is to another boat is tied up at the dock if your boat catches fire it could burn my boat also. There have been several marina fires lately so that is a consideration.

 

[stroutmail]

What % of motorboats less than 65 feet have an auto fire suppression system, or even a port to spray suppressant thru the floor? If a not having either is a danger to other boats, then a very large number of boats should be uninsurable. Gasoline powered boats are the real fire risk...yet there is no insurance requirement for a hydrocarbon lockout to prevent explosion. I would be more worried about the gas powered express cruiser in the slip next to me not using his bilge blowers and not inspecting for leaks before startup than a diesel boat with engine running next to me. Boats equipped with propane are a real risk too..I know of no system that shuts down all power in the presence of volatile hydrocarbons in the bilge.yet insurance is still provided..My boat had its propane stove removed and replaced with electric.

 

[stroutmail]

The controversy about automatic systems on boats is a bit like sprinkler systems in condos, apartments and homes. Very few states require them..like MD. Many more states prohibit them.

States/regions requiring fire sprinklers in new, one- and two-family homes: CA, MD, Washington, D.C.

States prohibiting statewide and new, local adoptions of fire sprinkler requirements in new, one- and two-family homes: AK, AL, AZ, CT, DE, GA, HI, ID, IN, KS, KY, LA, MA, MI, MN, MO, NH, NJ, NY, NC, ND, OH, PA, SC, TX, UT, VA, WV, WI

States allowing local adoptions of sprinkler requirements for new, one- and two-family homes: AR, CO, FL, IL, IA, ME, MS, MT, NE, NV, NM, OK, OR, RI, SD, TN, VT, WA, WY
(*Note: In MA and NY, homes of a certain size must be sprinklered)

 

[stroutmail]

One could argue that "boats are different because you can't just escape a fire by exiting". But, IMHO. every boat should have a "life boat" of some kind so escape is possible.

 

[stroutmail]

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/fire...MIt6q82uWm6QIVBNvACh1O7Ar3EAQYASABEgLxAPD_BwE

I would guess the $1500 system for 500 cu ft would be minimum for a Grand Banks 36. Add an alarm and engine shutdown, and my guess the "system" installed would be around $4000-5000.

 

[moparharn]

It is this kind of post that makes this forum so valuable. Well reasoned and well stated. Thank you for this post. Bill

Stroutmail, I understand your concerns. My initial reaction to auto suppression and auto engine shutdown was similar to yours.

I want to suggest that rather than gocusing on automation vs human action. And that you ignore aircraft and race cars. Focus on your boat, cruising style, cruising area and crew.

I can't evaluate your situation, only describe mine. Both recreational cruising and my career on the water.

Being in remote areas, bordering on wilderness in the shoulder season or even the off season where help can be a long time coming. And I'm sailing with.a small crew, possibly only one of us has significant formal training. I NEED to know the fire fire is out. I can't enter the space safely to fight the fire.

Suppression must be remote and it is best if it is automatic. The fire MUST be extinguished.

When I think about the risk of a shutdown killing power when I need it vs a fire running out of control ii is clear to me, given my situation, I won't often be in a situation where engine shutdown is fatal. I can't say the same about an unextinguished fire.

In my opinion a 1st class small yacht system would be auto release on high temp. Auto engine shutdown on release. An over ride on the shutdown. Rate of rise alarm that trips before the auto release temp is reached. Engine room camera. Manual release.

That way when the rate of rise alarm trips I check via the camera to decide if this is a "real" fire, kill the engines if the boat won't be in immediate danger from loss of power then trip the manual release.

If the boat will be in immediate danger from loss of power I have the over ride.

If I'm asleep at the switch and don't hear the alarms or the alarms fail the suppression fires automatically. Fire is out.

Regarding comparing yacht auto fire suppression to the 737 Max automation problem. There is no comparison. The common auto release on yachts and small boats is glass vial that fails at 179 F. Pretty simple.

Keep in mind these small preengineered systems are a single shot. One pop is all you get. And as previously mentioned a running engine will quickly scavenge the space of the suppression agent.

 

[Mako]

In post #8 you referred to having multiple "layers" of protection, which can include alarms from various sensors (rate of rise, high temperature, smoke, etc.) as well as various types of actions taken (engine shutdown, flooded agent, localized agents, manual extinguishers through fire ports).

We also need to think about where the risk lies. I don't recall the chart, but the majority of fires are caused by external forces (boat in slip next door). Next level of severity is DC fires (batteries, cables, connectors, starting motor circuit). Even lower risk is AC fires, probably because of the introduction of arc fault and GFI breakers. Where is diesel fuel???? I think it was way below 10%.

What about the very real risk of lithium battery fires from charging of small personal devices. Many boat have sunk from this including super yachts and that horrible Conception dive boat (yes I dove with them a couple of times and it felt like a death trap).

So you're thinking right about having multiple strategies to fight multiple scenarios.

Also, IMO I would never feel comfortable with an auto discharge system without multiple layers of warning built in. What we refer to as a "double knock" system or similar.

 

[rslifkin]

Keep in mind these small preengineered systems are a single shot. One pop is all you get. And as previously mentioned a running engine will quickly scavenge the space of the suppression agent.

I've often thought it would be a good idea to have a manual release only second bottle. That way after the first bottle blows, if there's any doubt about re-flash and whether you're maintaining an adequate agent concentration, you can blow the second bottle after a few minutes while things are cooling down.

 

[stroutmail]

Well reasoned...preventing the fire by managing ALL risks is just as important if not more so than how to put one out.

Which is better...a well maintained boat, with superior electrical systems, limited flammable materials in the engine room (think non-flammable battery enclosures) and an alert crew monitoring all of the risks or a mediocre maintenance program and a lazy crew with an auto fire suppression?

 

[stroutmail]

I've often thought it would be a good idea to have a manual release only second bottle. That way after the first bottle blows, if there's any doubt about re-flash and whether you're maintaining an adequate agent concentration, you can blow the second bottle after a few minutes while things are cooling down.

That is exactly what the ABYC standards guys discussed.

But, there is a point where overkill seems to describe. How much cost and sophistication is appropriate for a $80,000 boat?

 

[rslifkin]

That is exactly what the ABYC standards guys discussed.

But, there is a point where overkill seems to describe. How much cost and sophistication is appropriate for a $80,000 boat?

Yeah, I wouldn't expect to see that in the standards. Maybe as a "if available space and other considerations allow, consider X" type of recommendation.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Portage Bay. I think your reasoning is very sound. The "the rate of rise" alarm and the camera with the manual activation is the key...because the Captain is in control..unless he is not paying attention..THEN the machine takes over with auto engine shutdown and auto activation. Have not seen such a system, but I will look for one.

Thank you for your comment..very helpful

I don't know of a package that has it all. However it would not be difficult to put it together. Fireboy Xintex sells the auto release on temp bottles that can be ordered with manual operation as well. They sell the engine shutdown system with over ride. Engine room cameras are a good idea, many choices out there. Rate of rise alarms can be "Googled".


No, I'm not there yet, still in the planning stage.



If I recall you mentioned in a previous post an oversized bottle. I've done the same, now at 150% of required capacity. My reasoning there is I'm not going the route of closing ventilation, auto or manual, too much of a challenge to retro fit an older boat.


A second bottle manual release only is not a bad idea but I don't think I'll go there.



You did speak of the cost to protect an $80k boat. I'm in the same financial ball park. But I'm focused on protecting the lives of those aboard.



Of all the things that can go wrong on a boat fire scares me the most. Collision avoidance is up to me, pay attention. Same for grounding. Mechanical failure may leave me stranded, but still floating. Flooding unless I tear a huge hole in the bottom gives me time to deal with the flooding or board the dingy / life raft in a controlled manner.


To learn how fast a fire can get out of control, I'm not saying all fires, but when the gets out of control quickly.... TF Members escape Manatee FireThat fire was at a dock, imagine being in a remote area, my goal in cruising.

 

[stroutmail]

https://www.passagemaker.com/lifestyle/fire-suppression-systems

Here is a link that discusses the issue and ABYC A4.

Probably the notion that one is not "safe" unless you have an auto suppression system will never set well with me. And, I am probably more afraid of fire than most. I just don't trust automatic systems..they can go off when not needed, and they can also fail to go off when expected.

 

[rslifkin]

You did speak of the cost to protect an $80k boat. I'm in the same financial ball park. But I'm focused on protecting the lives of those aboard.

There are also the cases where monetary value is a bit tricky. The boat may only be worth $80k if you go to sell it, but that doesn't necessarily mean you could buy another boat you'd be happy with and have it ready to use for $80k.

 

[swampu]

I always laugh but I think there are more galley fires then engine room fires. My boat burned twice by fire from the galley and once by lighting.

 

[Mako]

Good point swampu. The one fire I had was from a bulkhead mounted electric heater, very old wires, connection must have been faulty.

Me don't likey da electric heaters!

 

[twistedtree]

If you want to operate the fire suppression system manually, then go for it. You seem to understand it all well enough, and know that any engines (propulsion, generator, etc.) need to be shut down, as well as any ventilation fans that will remove the suppressant before it has a chance to do it's thing.


At the same time, consider whether others are as knowledgeable, can identify a fire, know the steps that need to be taken, know which switches shut down what, and know how to release or injected the suppressant. Someone else may be at the helm, and not be as well versed in the procedures. Time is critical, so you don't want to be fumbling around.


Personally I like the automatic systems. No one system is optimal for all situations, and an automatic system is no exception. But it's a really good first line of defense, and one that I want to keep in place.

 

[Northern Spy]

Manual at sea, automatic when at anchor, asleep, and/or away from the boat.

I'd just get another surveyor or have him edit out the recommendation and not submit that report to my insurer

There is no requirement.

But it is a prudent recommendation.

Akin to wearing PFDs on the docks. A prudent recommendation, but not a requirement.

 

[boatpoker]

Fourth..I have a single engine in a cavernous engine room.. Not much combustible material near engine.

Your entire boat is combustible but the toxic fumes from the burning resins will likely get you before the flames do.

If you don't get a fire out within a few minutes .... it's going to the waterline.

 

[stroutmail]

I appreciate all the feedback. Kind of rethinking the adding of an automatic system. First, I am going to install a first class monitoring and alarm system for the engine room. So, I will know EARLY when/if a fire starts--hopefully long before engine room reaches 180F.

As I mentioned earlier, I am not a fan of Halon 1301 or equivalent low boiling point suppressants (FM200, HFC227ea) that require the room to be "flooded". But I see sytems using high boiling point suppressants (e.g Halotron or HFC227fa Cleanguard or Novec 1230) that are pretty close to Halon 1211 in performance available in automatic systems. (I am particularly impressed with Novec 1230.) And having the system "be just there in case" as a last line of defense and when I am not at the helm or available to respond quickly enough is a comforting thought. So if it is not too "fiscally outrageous" I may install one.

 

[twistedtree]

Are "take the heat away" suppressants suitable for electrical fires, or others where the source of heat is something other than the fire itself? I'm no expert, but wonder. My guess would be that an electrical fire is amount the higher probability risks, and it will be it's own heat source. It seems you really need to displace the Ox as well. In other words, cooling seems all good, but not sufficient.

 

[stroutmail]

Are "take the heat away" suppressants suitable for electrical fires, or others where the source of heat is something other than the fire itself? I'm no expert, but wonder. My guess would be that an electrical fire is amount the higher probability risks, and it will be it's own heat source. It seems you really need to displace the Ox as well. In other words, cooling seems all good, but not sufficient.

As is well illustrated in the 3M video: You need fuel, oxygen, heat, and a chemical action to support a fire. Every supression agent "attacks" them in a slightly different way. All of them attack the heat, oxygen and chemical action to some degree.

https://www.enggcyclopedia.com/2011/10/combustion-basics-fire-triangle-tetrahedron/