Category A brands?

[GlennR]

I've been reading here and browsing yachtworld.com for boats and I realize that there are different categories of boats. "A" is the only category of boats that can cross oceans, right? Are trawlers the only type of power yacht that is considered category A or are there other designs?

Or do other hull types become considered category A beyond a certain length?

Is there a list of brands that offer category A yachts, so I can search the listings for them easier?

 

[ScottC]

Hi GlennR,
Perhaps this will answer some of your questions
https://yachtsinvest.com/faq/ce-yacht-compliance-classification/

 

[DavidM]

The various categories, A being the ocean going one, are European CE standards. They are not specific to trawlers (whatever a trawler might be) and a motor yacht (whatever a motor yacht might be) could also be built to Category A.

But yes trawlers are the most likely type of boat to be built to Category A and the Nordhavn 41 is one of the very few small trawlers that meet this standard. Here is a clip from Passagemaker:

"The N41 will have a Category A CE Certification, a category that very few yachts in this range can achieve. Category A means the boat must be able to operate in Beaufort Force 8 winds (over 40 knots) and consistent waves over 13 feet in height."

David

 

[rslifkin]

Another thing about Category A boats is this: just because it meets the Cat A requirements doesn't mean it can actually cross oceans. It's entirely possible to meet the requirements but not have enough fuel range to actually make a crossing.

 

[GH41]

Two things.. A 20 year old Cat A is Not the same as a new Cat A boat. Watch the Nordhavn 41 video. Even the large Nordhavns have to strap tons of fuel in bladders on deck to make longer crossings. I wonder what tons of fuel on deck does to the rating??

 

[GlennR]

So, when I'm looking at the various boats on yachtworld.com how can I determine their classification rating?

 

[bligh]

So, when I'm looking at the various boats on yachtworld.com how can I determine their classification rating?

Most boats won’t be class A. I’m not sure If most boats are rated at all. Why does class rating mean so much to you? Many boats that are unrated safely cross oceans all the time. Members here are quite knowledgeable and may be able to help you better if they know why you want an A or B or whatever rating.

 

[FF]

"Category A means the boat must be able to operate in Beaufort Force 8 winds (over 40 knots) and consistent waves over 13 feet in height."

Cat A just means the boat can be caught out , Force 8 is not a very big breeze.

Climbing up a wave , or having one crash on deck is a long way from being tossed or swept by a larger wave.

 

[sunchaser]

GR
Having a vessel that is built to Category A/CE rating and doing an ocean crossing are two very different things. Crew and skipper capability and experience are key drivers for blue water crossings.

 

[ScottC]

Also consider that, obviously, the TYPE of wave conditions matter. A CE "A" boat is rated for waves above 4 meters. That's a pretty broad category!! There are certainly wind and wave conditions within this band that could capsize an "A" boat.


For example, my 33' boat has a CE "B" rating which, among other things, says "up to 4 meter" waves. Maybe (???) I could do this if the waves were really more like swells, with looonnngg periods, where I could easily ride up and down. But, where I am in the Baltic & North seas, the period between BREAKING waves is often 3-5 seconds. With this, any more than 2m waves would likely do damage to the boat and crew, even with skillful handling. I wouldn't want to even contemplate conditions with 2-4m waves like this. Out of the question. My point? These CE ratings are only an approximate guide, at best. Do not rely on them to accurately describe a boat's capability for every type of situation.


I agree with others on here that have suggested having an "A" designation is simply a starting point. Find out the rest of the performance capabilities by continuing to discuss with members of this forum, along with further research.

 

[ScottC]

So, when I'm looking at the various boats on yachtworld.com how can I determine their classification rating?

Maybe one approach would be some clever Googling for "Ocean Crossing" and "Motor Yacht" / Trawler / Motorboat, etc. You get the idea. I find articles about motor yacht crossings very interesting, as it's not so common for motor yachts, say, 75' in length or less. Nevertheless, finding these articles might help you build a list of yachts to take a closer look at.


There are even some threads on this forum describing ocean crossings.

 

[DavidM]

You will find very few trawlers listed on Yachtworld that are Catagory A rated. Nordhavn is the only one that comes to mind. Others like Diesel Ducks probably meet many of the specs of Catagory A but don't bother getting rated- it is expensive and requires an actual partial capsize test to determine downflooding and positive righting angle.

But why do you care? Are you going to cross oceans? Have you ever sailed on a boat making a blue water passage?

David

 

[GlennR]

The "why do I care" is just that I'm trying to understand what I'm looking at while shopping. From the little reading I've done here it's apparent that some boats are fine for protected waters, while others are more capable and are able to explore foreign lands.

I realize the Great Loop and US rivers offer thousands of mile to explore, but I'm attracted to visiting places that offer more cultural diversity. I want to journey to lands that I can't easily reach by car. I want to experience far away places with foreign languages and exotic flavors. I'm trying to figure out which boats are considered safe for the open waters that I may want to cross to reach those places. I don't necessarily want to cross the Atlantic, but I don't want to worry about pushing the design limits of our boat if we decide to visit South America.

My uneducated eye looks at the bow height and the transom design, the minimum draft, and the length to guesstimate seaworthyness. I figure that there must be better rating methods than my "guesstimating"?

How do you guys learn "what's what" about these big saltwater boats?

 

[Codger2]

But why do you care? Are you going to cross oceans? Have you ever sailed on a boat making a blue water passage?

Bingo! That question should have been asked at the beginning of this thread!

 

[GlennR]

Bingo! That question should have been asked at the beginning of this thread!

I assumed it would be apparent that I'm a newbie with little to no experience.

Instead of posting a bunch of "What about this boat?" with links to all the interesting boats I find listed I figured I should try to gain a bit of the basics of offshore boat knowledge first.

 

[Codger2]

I assumed it would be apparent that I'm a newbie with little to no experience.

GlennR, I apologize! You did in fact write that you are a newbie with little to no experience. BTW, How would you answer that question now?

 

[DavidM]

I assumed it would be apparent that I'm a newbie with little to no experience.

Ok, so don't pay any attention to CE ratings now. Buy a boat that you can use in coastal waters which virtually every trawler can do fine, develop some experience, and then if you still want to go blue water cruising you will be in much better position to buy a boat that can do that safely.

FWIW, CE A rated boats and boats that are capable of blue water passages, like Nordhavns or Diesel Ducks, cost roughly twice what a coast cruiser costs and provide very little extra value in that service.

David

 

[Medic]

GlennR,

My first "BIG" boat was a Nordhavn 55. It is rated to cross oceans, and could. However, in the almost four years I had it I did not cross any oceans, although I did go as far as 400 miles across an ocean, from Nantucket to Bermuda, and spent quite a bit of time 200 or so miles offshore.

The rating was most important in that I always felt incredibly safe on the Nordhavn. My current boat is a North Pacific 49 and it is a coastal cruiser. So, I "have to" stay within a couple of hundred miles of shore (my insurance carrier says they don't really care). That means that I don't cross the Atlantic or the Pacific.

But I CAN go, should I wish to, from the north of Canada to the southern tip of South America (or, of course, through the Panama Canal, which I actually have done), then up the entire coast of the continental United States, past Canada and to Alaska.

That should cover it for me.

Now, would I feel as safe in the North Pacific as I did in the Nordhavn. I don't know yet, but probably not. So, what would be the practical consequences of not feeling as safe? Well, I would stop more often along the route for weather certainly. I would have to spend more time in ports in some of the most interesting places in the world. And, I would need to have the time to do so.

Doesn't sound too bad.

I really planned to cross the Atlantic. I was going to do it after 3 years of getting to know the boat. In the third year my wife had an allergic reaction (not just a normal, localized reaction) to some bugs in the Caribbean, and that was the end of boating for a few years.

My Nordhavn was bought by a "retiring" fishing fleet captain/owner who did indeed want to see the world with his wife before they were both too old to do so. I never got to meet the man, my broker handled everything, and I don't know just how things turned out, but I hope he had, or is having, a great time.

Very few people who think they will cross oceans actually do so. I still dream about having my North Pacific in the Med for a couple of seasons, but will have it taken there on a yacht transport, while my wife and I fly in.

Enjoy your time.

 

[GlennR]

GlennR, I apologize! You did in fact write that you are a newbie with little to no experience. BTW, How would you answer that question now?

I don't know if I'd ever want to try crossing an ocean, maybe I would if I happen to buy a boat that is capable. But I doubt I'd bother selling an otherwise good boat to upgrade to one just for the one crossing.

The biggest water I've been on has been on day fishing trips off the coast of NC/SC and from Destin, FL into the gulf. I don't remember how far out the boats went, but I'm sure it was under 200 miles. After the shore is beyond the horizon it seems pretty far out, but obviously "blue water" is much farther out.

I've been on a big sail boat once too, but only went up the coast a little way & spent the night and returned the next day.

I don't know how big any of the waves have been, but I've been slammed around some with everyone needing to "hold on" to something.

When I'm looking at pretty boats on yachtworld it's obvious that the furniture I see in many of them wouldn't be safe in rough water. Dining room tables & chairs would be flying all around in the little bit of rough water that I've seen just going out to fish for the day.

I assume those boats aren't used for open water.

 

[Shrew]

CE Certifications doesn't mean it can make Trans-Oceanic passages. It deals with the sea state and wind conditions it can safely handle.

Category A (Ocean): covers largely self-sufficient boats designed for extended voyages with winds of over Beaufort Force 8 (over 40 knots), and significant wave heights above 13 feet, but excluding abnormal conditions such as hurricanes.

Category B (Offshore): includes boats operating offshore with winds to 40 knots and significant seas to 13 feet.

Category C (Inshore): is for boats operating in coastal waters and large bays and lakes with winds to Force 6, up to 27 knots, and significant seas 7 feet high.

Category D (Inland or sheltered coastal waters): is for boats in small lakes and rivers with winds to Force 4 and significant wave heights to 18 inches.

 

[GlennR]

@Medic,

Thanks for your story. Explained in terms that make sense in both the technical and the emotional perspectives of the boating experience.

 

[Shrew]

CE Certifications doesn't mean it can make Trans-Oceanic passages. It deals with the sea state and wind conditions it can safely handle.

Category A (Ocean): covers largely self-sufficient boats designed for extended voyages with winds of over Beaufort Force 8 (over 40 knots), and significant wave heights above 13 feet, but excluding abnormal conditions such as hurricanes.

Category B (Offshore): includes boats operating offshore with winds to 40 knots and significant seas to 13 feet.

Category C (Inshore): is for boats operating in coastal waters and large bays and lakes with winds to Force 6, up to 27 knots, and significant seas 7 feet high.

Category D (Inland or sheltered coastal waters): is for boats in small lakes and rivers with winds to Force 4 and significant wave heights to 18 inches.

Based on the CE definitions, I would consider many boats which are marketed as 'trawlers' (Beneteau, Mainship, Nordic Tug, Island Gypsy, Marine Trader, North Pacific, Grand Banks, etc) to all really be Cat C boats.

True passage makers would be Nordhavn, Kady Krogen, Seaton, Romsdale, Southern Marine, Realship, etc.

 

[TJM]

I think a few people have mentioned this but I will reiterate. "The Boat" is only one part of the equation. Marine Experience, mechanical ability and crew are huge factors. There are no service stations or places to pull over if impellers burn up from debris, engines over heat due to a clogged passage or belts break and these can all happen one week out from the showroom.
I have been boating for 40 yrs and frequently learn something new (the hard way). Experience is your friend and being on a charter boat does not constitute experience. Some people work well under pressure and some do not.
Loosing an engine or house power as it is getting dark 50 miles off shore will test your nerves and crew pretty quick.
Welcome, enjoy the ride, it REALLY is worth it

 

[murofrelwart]

My uneducated eye looks at the bow height and the transom design, the minimum draft, and the length to guesstimate seaworthyness. I figure that there must be better rating methods than my "guesstimating"?

How do you guys learn "what's what" about these big saltwater boats?

I suggest "Voyaging Under Power", Robert Beebe

https://www.amazon.com/Voyaging-Under-Power-Robert-Beebe/dp/0071767339/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&hvadid=77721781904389&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=voyaging+under+power&qid=1595003311&sr=8-1&tag=mh0b-20

 

[Medic]

GlennR,

You mention NC/SC. My boat is on Hilton Head Island. Send me a PM (private message) if you want to get together sometime.

To send a PM just click and hold on the person's name (handle) and it will take you to a page where you can further select in order to do that. The instructions are on TrawlerForum, of course, but I figured if you are new perhaps you don't want to try and figure that out just yet.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: Cat A by no definition means you're going to cross the Atlantic. It simply means the boat is designed to handle the stated conditions. My Baby Riva, a 44' in the avatar, is CAT A and it only has a range of 200 nm.

I do think category is an important factor but just one. Beneteau Swift Trawlers are interesting as they get classifications based on passengers. For instance, a 44 is a B12/C14.

Most semi-displacement or planing boats in the size range seen here will not be A's. Some won't even be B's. I do think it gives an indication of conditions the boat can handle, but still says nothing about the operator.

 

[4fun1]

Based on the CE definitions, I would consider many boats which are marketed as 'trawlers' (Beneteau, Mainship, Nordic Tug, Island Gypsy, Marine Trader, North Pacific, Grand Banks, etc) to all really be Cat C boats.



True passage makers would be Nordhavn, Kady Krogen, Seaton, Romsdale, Southern Marine, Realship, etc.

I have a Beneteau and it is B rated. However I would not want to be out on it in 13 foot waves.[emoji2961]

 

[Wxx3]

Most boats won’t be class A. I’m not sure If most boats are rated at all. Why does class rating mean so much to you? Many boats that are unrated safely cross oceans all the time. Members here are quite knowledgeable and may be able to help you better if they know why you want an A or B or whatever rating.

Very Well said.

I'll add, it's certainly an European thing and in some countries a requirement that your boat is rated, A, B, or C.

In the USA, it's simply for marketing, mainly by Nordhavn.

 

[Fletcher500]

Post #23 sums it up well. There are plenty of boats that can travel far offshore including that green Selene that is being auctioned off as noted on a different thread. It’s the crew and their skills that are the limiting factors.

 

[billdomb]

And how are the crew classified? That boat may be happy in 13 foot seas, but...