Category A brands?

[exmaggiedrum]

Most small "yachts" crossing oceans

I'm not trying to start a food fight here as this is a trawler forum. I have owned sailboats and am strongly considering getting a trawler. They are ideal for the PNW unless you absolutely want to sail rather than motor. We mostly motored with our sailboat with a Ford Lehman 80 anyway.



You will find that most "small yachts" crossing oceans are sailboats. We went across the Pacific and this is first hand direct observation. And it makes sense too. Even little sailboats can handle much larger waves and they don't need nearly as much diesel to get from A to B.


But sailboats and trawlers are hugely different for accomodations in so many ways. We had a very spacious sailboat in 42' but small portlights and not true "rooms". You also have to deal with sails and masts and rigging, a whole different world in $$ and maintenance.



I have worked on Nordhavens and they are beautiful boats but you will have to put a small fortune in the tanks going across. And the advice given here on stability in different conditions is very true. We were in multiple gales on our sailboat and we just rode them out - short waves and long ones, cross waves, high winds, etc.



I guess what I am saying is the points made about fuel needed and seaworthyness are huge. We did see some trawlers of moderate length but most all we did see a thousand or more miles out were boats in the 100' and up range. With crews.



If you want to go to Mexico though, or Alaska, from this side of the US, there are lots and lots of small, not true ocean ready, trawlers that make it. We envied their luxury layouts and especially the party cockpits.

 

[rolomart3]

In my humble opinion, the most pertinent question for ocean crossing would be "do you need a category A crew?"
The crew is usually the weakest component. Ask sailors that crossed the ocean in all sizes of sailboats.
To begin with, probably it is more important to know when and where to cross or not to cross an ocean than the category of the vessel used.

I suggest you join a sailboat crew scheduled to do an ocean crossing. Your own experience will give you a perspective on the issue that no forum or vessel certification can give you about what takes to cross an ocean in a boat.

 

[mvweebles]

According to the CE/Class definitions posted by someone else, I'm firmly a Class C sailor. I have experience in Class A conditions and worse, but my job as captain and spouse is to stay in Class C conditions or better which is fortunately becoming easier to do. Anything worse won't be survivable not because of my boat (a Willard 36 with a fine reputation but unknown class rating), but because my spouse will mutiny - eventually, I have to sleep.....

I really wish conversations like these would at least give mention to skills needed to avoid bad weather versus surviving them. Instead, we all seem to buy-into the PAE hype that the CE certifications are mandatory for crossing oceans. Its as if to say "no need to research or read Beebe's book - as long as Class A, you're good." I can think of no finer globe-girdling small yacht than the un-rated Dashew FPB. I wish someone would challenge OP's like these with questions like "So, you plan to cross an ocean - which ocean? What season? Ever heard of a Pilot Chart? What's your plan for weather forecasting?" Simple questions like those do much more to mitigate risk than any CE rating ever will.

These conversations inevitably lead to heavily equipped and complicated boats, often with exotic stuff that cannot be repaired outside of major yachting centers. I have a hunch that amongst failed cruising dreams, the ratio of those that failed due to a weak boat vs those that failed due to getting tired of fixing stuff and the maxed-out credit cards is about 1:1000. Suddenly, a Certification that was designed to open the globe to the cruiser creates a yacht that is tied to civilization. Read Ken William's blog - he flies a mechanic to his boat all over the world to begin each cruising season (BTW - Ken's Blog remains a favorite of mine).

That said, recent article about a cruising couple on a sail catamaran lost in the Indian Ocean in heavy weather. Failed rescue attempt by a freighter. Few details.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/20...-sinks-tanzania-coast/12483886

 

[Fletcher500]

Two of my ex college classmates rowed a 25 footer across the Pacific Ocean. It’s about the people inside the vessel.

 

[MurrayM]

In 1987 Ed Gillette solo sea kayaked from California to Hawaii, using a sextant, in 63 days.

 

[exmaggiedrum]

Good crew - wherever

Being in a boat in any water deeper than a bathtub is serious business. Your boat can sink and you can die. Most don't of course. But I have been in calm waters in the daylight with no other boats around and been afraid of the skipper/owner driving the boat. Even knowing how to anchor is serious business.


When you go offshore the dangers are mostly the same as in many inland waters and rivers. Crew and skipper is just as important but you have to have competent people (or just one) in the cockpit near the wheel even on autopilot. You can't just tuck in to a bay or nook and drop the hook when you get tired, or get lost, or in conditions beyond your capabilities. Even anchoring requires more skill as you may have to stop with bottoms and potential seas you have never seen before.



You don't need a professional crew or captain to do that. You can't get more amateur than we were starting out. Zero experience except on little Sunfish or outboard ski boats. We took 5 years in Puget Sound to learn good saftey practices and made them habit. We banged in to many a dock coming in to a marina and didn't always set the hook right. But you learn (have to learn). And you follow certain protocols.



We always loved to have a sundowner in a sweet little bay swinging on the hook. We never had so much as a beer or a glass of wine when underway. Other skippers routinely drink while underway. Some get drunk while underway. If I am ever on a boat with a drinking skipper it is my last time on that boat. So it takes discipline. Can you drink and survive? Usually if you aren't drunk but a storm can come up and there is no protected place to hide. You need to think quickly to save your ship and your crew.



One skipper we knew left Mexico with 10 cases of beer on board and ran out before he got to French Polynesia. His biggest concern was to run out of alcohol before he arrived. He and his admiral were very experienced and they did fine. I would not go with someone like that though. It is not what a competent crew does.


We studied, and practiced, and talked to experienced offshore crews and we felt comfortable going out the first time. The first time we went out and could not see land and had to go overnight it got real for us. Our first time and it was the make it or break it time. It actually was a bit scary. Going overnight is what separates a lot of sailors from others. It requires a whole new set of skills, heightened senses, and even more discipline.



But any of you can do this. Our first long passage was 25 days without land. The only drinking we did was when we gave Neptune his due crossing the Equator and that was only one shot of tequila and one glass of wine. We were amateurs and needed our full senses and reaction times. We got scared a few times on other shorter passages but we knew our boat was sound and we could do it unless we did something stupid.


The key is to learn what you need to learn. Be able to fix things along the way. Know your boat. Know how to use your electronics. Have a good autopilot. Manage your stores, water, and fuel. Keep rested so you have energy when you need it, especially on night watch. Know how to navigate and plan your route. And, as noted above, know what time of year you can make the safest passage and what seasons a competent skipper avoids off shore. Know where the currents are close in on arrival in strange exotic places. Know what the bottom is likely to be and be prepared with chain rode and at least one very good anchor and preferably two.



And pick a boat that can make it, with a crew who can handle that particular boat. When you are ready just go! We double handed all but about a week from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas with two good experienced friends. But I did the night watches and anchoring and all the monitoring and maintenance on the boat since they did not know night procedures well and certainly did not know our particular boat. We also discovered we did not want crew with us again. Too many disagreements. We double-handed about 15,000nm and often got less rest than we wanted but we had enough. We never doubted we would make it (except two times when it was definitely very scary and a few times that made us very nervous).



So get yourself and your crew ready. Pick a good capable boat. Prepare it well. And just go. If you get crew, make sure you will feel safe with them at the helm in tough times. Anybody can drive a good boat in the good times. It's the hard times that require a driver/crew who know what the hell to do.

 

[Fletcher500]

In 1987 Ed Gillette solo sea kayaked from California to Hawaii, using a sextant, in 63 days.

He is a beast. I read his book a few years ago. A good read.

 

[ScottC]

He is a beast. I read his book a few years ago. A good read.

How do you carry enough provisions for 63 days in a kayak? Is a 68' Nordhavn following with "all the rest"? Guess I'll have to read the book!

 

[donpjr]

Cat A. MJM 4Oz and Elling E4. The Elling did cross an ocean, albeit with bladders. They don't have the "look" of a rugged ocean crosser, but Cat A nonetheless.

 

[BandB]

Cat A. MJM 4Oz and Elling E4. The Elling did cross an ocean, albeit with bladders. They don't have the "look" of a rugged ocean crosser, but Cat A nonetheless.

Wifey B: Clearly our 44' Riva isn't an ocean crosser. Would have to be a very narrow ocean. However, I do think being built to a CAT A specification means something and is representative of the ability to handle rough water under the right crew. I think the two boats in your post and my Baby Riva are by comparison more capable of handling rough water than perhaps a Mainship or Swift Trawler of the same size. Doesn't mean you can head out for a Transatlantic crossing in either nor does it mean you'd be wise to plan a trip in 12' seas. However, it may also be one indication of handling in 4' seas which are regularly encountered.

 

[Shrew]

The direction of this thread made me think of a funny comparison.

Same Crew: My wife and I

Same Conditions: 8 foot, breaking seas beam to

Two different boats:

28 ft Maxum Express Cruiser (think Searay/Bayliner):
-->My wife: "Wow, I can barely see with all this heavy spray on the windshield, how much further?"

39 Ft Mainship Trawler:
--> My wife: <Crying> "What happens if we don't make it!!!!"

 

[rslifkin]

That brings up a good point: Knowing the conditions a given boat can survive doesn't always tell you much about how well it actually handles in bad conditions or how miserable (or not) the ride may be.

Some boats can be a handful to operate or quite uncomfortable in some conditions even if you're nowhere near the survivability limit of the boat. And other times, things can seem pretty ok right up to the point where it all goes wrong.

 

[carricko]

Lot's of good advice here about crew ability, experience and so but not so much about boat suitability.
There is quite a big invisible jump in quality between a Cat A boat and a cat B boat that gives it an industrial workman like sort of feel. Scantlings will be generally heavier, deck gear will be more robust, Windows will probably be heavier and smaller. It will have waterproof bulkheads. If it's a smaller boat it probably won't have side doors and the opening back doors will be high quality and waterproof. (not watertight or weather proof). Door securing will be another expensive feature.
Obviously stability is of importance, and downflooding angles are checked, and for two similar boats, one a class A and one a class, B the class A must have a higher AVS.
The Dutch have mastered the art of nearly combining A and B with some of their steel canal cruisers, they are sold as canal boats with the ability to make cat B sea crossings in good conditions, and can be upgraded to cat A at great expense.
I've been on board GRP lifeboats that are really overbuilt, astonishing would the word, and seen somewhat older lifeboats sold as a cat B. (they were too old to be RCD categorised, but the RNLI did their own designation)

 

[Erik]

Trans-Atlantic

I also was looking for Category-A vessels because I was hoping to buy in Europe (where I live) and get a few years of solid experience before cruising to the U.S. (where I’m from).

I’m a newbie in every sense, so the thought of cracking the hull and dying in the North Sea between the Faroe Islands and Iceland is sobering. I know I have tons to learn, but was hoping to get something that would meet my needs/wants (safely) for the next 10-15 years.

I recognize that a Cat-B (or effective equivalent if not rated) is going to do fine in 99% of my cruising around the Mediterranean, up the Coast, crossing the Channel, and even throughout Scandinavia…but I don’t want to own boats on two continents (and then pay for storage) and fly back and forth between them. Make sense?

 

[rslifkin]

I also was looking for Category-A vessels because I was hoping to buy in Europe (where I live) and get a few years of solid experience before cruising to the U.S. (where I’m from).

I’m a newbie in every sense, so the thought of cracking the hull and dying in the North Sea between the Faroe Islands and Iceland is sobering. I know I have tons to learn, but was hoping to get something that would meet my needs/wants (safely) for the next 10-15 years.

I recognize that a Cat-B (or effective equivalent if not rated) is going to do fine in 99% of my cruising around the Mediterranean, up the Coast, crossing the Channel, and even throughout Scandinavia…but I don’t want to own boats on two continents (and then pay for storage) and fly back and forth between them. Make sense?

If the crossing is a 1 time thing there's always the option to ship a boat across as deck cargo.

 

[Erik]

Thanks! In fact I thought of that, or hiring a deeply experienced passage-making Captain. I’m recognizing that I’m far too ignorant to even consider that voyage until I have several more years of more “localized” experience under my belt.

 

[rslifkin]

Thanks! In fact I thought of that, or hiring a deeply experienced passage-making Captain. I’m recognizing that I’m far too ignorant to even consider that voyage until I have several more years of more “localized” experience under my belt.

I was thinking more along the lines of not necessarily needing a boat capable of a crossing if it's only going to be done once and just coastal cruising on either side. You could choose a boat more suited to 99% of your use that way and just ship it across instead of it needing to do the crossing on its own bottom.

 

[twistedtree]

I would get a boat that meets 90% of you needs for the first 3-5 years, then get out and use it. You will gain the necessary experience, get a better sense of what type of cruising you want to do, and get a better idea of what you need longer term in a boat. If you decide you need a different boat, you will have. Much better idea what you need and why.