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Nomad Willy 11-10-2011 10:25 AM

RE: What would you do?
1. Marin, *How much better would new engines be * * .......10 ...20%? The Lehman's are free.*

2. But on the other hand how would you perceive of your boat if it had new engines * ......50 * .....80% better? More?

3. But the engines you'd choose would'nt be any lighter so much of the advantages would be lost so just keep the old tractor engines.*

But for you #2 holds a lot of water.

healhustler 11-10-2011 11:09 AM

What would you do?
LOL....interesting points, Eric. Since the majority of us use #2 (perceiving our boats) as the #1 stimulus to enjoying our boats, and the depreciation of the Flemming over the first years may reflect the approximate cost of the GB refit, I wonder if there's any real difference in the cost of the perception. *Heck, I've been hashing this over in my own mind since the original posting, and all I've come up with is a host of new projects that I'm even more determined to complete. *Why? *Cuz I want that perception, =stimulus to enjoy=pleasure=feel good=ego boost=comfort in nature.....or whatever else that goes on in me when I'm upon the water in my craft of choice.

-- Edited by healhustler on Thursday 10th of November 2011 12:13:42 PM

Per 11-10-2011 12:46 PM

RE: What would you do?

Marin wrote:
So here's an interesting dilema.* I'm not looking for suggestions for us, but using us as an example for the question.

We may---- may being the operative word--- at some time in the not too distant future be in a position to increase our allotted boating funds.* We have determined two possibilities (and we are not considering any more so don't offer any suggestions :-) ).**

Option 1*is to take our 1973 fiberglass*GB36 up to Vancouver, turn it over to a yard up there, and tell them to turn it into a brand new boat.* Completely rework the hull, new barrier, new*paint, new glued-down*teak decks, new engines, new generator, new*ergonomic*seat*cushions and upholstery, new dining table, new headliners,*new anything else that will benefit from being new.

Option 2 is to sell the GB36 as-is and buy a different boat.* We have decided there are only two boats that meet our criteria if we do this, and they are the drop-cockpit Grand Banks 46 and the Fleming 55.* That's it, those are the only two, the end.

Interestingly enough, we are both leaning toward the total rebuild of our existing boat.* The reasons are too numerous to list here, other than we feel the GB36 is the ideal size for what we do and ever will do*with a boat.* The GB46 and the FL55 are pretty big boats, larger than we actually need.* And*there's only the two of us and bigger boats are heavier boats to deal with at the dock, in the wind, etc.* But.... we've looked at examples of both of them and they are very, very nice boats.

We are well aware that Option 1 will involve spending FAR, FAR more money than the boat is worth or ever will be worth.* We bought the boat with the philosphy that we would never see a dime out of it when we were done with it.* It can be turned into a fish habitat.* But it would be nice to return it to not only new condition but better than new condition for the remainder of the time (hopefully a couple of decades) that we are still able to use it

So here's the question to discuss.....* if the money became available*to completely rework your current boat, fix everything that needs fixing, replace everything that you'd like to replace-- be they big ticket items like engines or small ticket items like anchors---*would you do this?* Or would you put the same amount of money toward a different boat?

I guess this is a sort of "how much do you like your boat?" question.

-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 1st of November 2011 11:08:42 PM
*I am taking the easy route here...

You love your GB and you said it yourself; the other ones are too big for just the tow of you. KEEP your GB, upgrade just the basics and spend the rest of money on FUEL.

Myself: If i had the funds, I would get myself into a nicer boat. I am in love with the GB Eastbay but we are talking a whole different level of money here like the 99% vs 1% of boatowners, prolly never happen and kids still need to go to college..

Tom.B 11-10-2011 05:59 PM

RE: What would you do?
Which is a point I neglected to bring up... Perhaps the difference from East Coast to West, but if I had to make a decision like that... it would go down as simple as this. If we have enough money, at the ripe old age of 46, to be trying to decide to buy a Flemming 55 or keep the current for a refit, we would ask ourselves two questions: Do we keep our boat that we deeply love and still have enough to disappear for 10 years to the Bahamas? OR If we buy a bigger boat, will there still be enough money leftover to disappear to the Bahamas for 10 years?

I have no aspirations to be the kind of man that if I have enough money, I then desire to try and conquer the world and win some corporate dick-waving contest. I want enough money to get out of the business of making money and enjoy the rest of my life with my amazing wife on our own terms. This rat race of trying to live life and enjoy it with a few perks is going to put me in a nut house.


Forkliftt 11-10-2011 07:57 PM

RE: What would you do?

GonzoF1 wrote:
How did this thread turn into ANOTHER debate about single versus dual engines? ;-) Might-as-well start an anchor debate next. :-D

As a late-comer to this party, place my vote in the column of taking the money and making the nicest specimen of a '73 Grand Banks you have ever seen. Make a punch-list of every project you have EVER dreamed of and get started. You love your current boat, it's a proven winner, and you could be the envy of all the Grand Bankers. Bigger and newer is nice, but I just think that it's a lot of work to relearn everything that it takes to keep such a big boat up-to-snuff from scratch.

If you want idea what to do this extra cash... Build a wing at your local animal shelter :-D

Hey Tom- we now have an Anchors and Anchoring section. Maybe what we need is a "Twin vs Single" section (:biggrin:)

Marin 11-11-2011 11:55 AM

What would you do?

Peter B wrote:
Just one question Marin...If you can trust your very life to one engine in the air, as you do all the time in you float plane, how come you can't trust one engine on the water
More people are killed in multi-engine planes that loose one or more engines than are killed in single engine planes that lose their only engine.* A multi-engine plane, particularly a light twin, can be a real handful if one engine is lost, so much so that when it occurs, there are far too many instances when the pilot makes the wrong decisions or takes the incorrect action*and loses control of the plane.* In a single engine plane, if the engine quits or has to be shut down, pretty much all your decisions except where you are going to arrive on the planet are already made for you.

Also, for the kind of flying we do, a multi-engine plane is not practical or even possible.* Very few multi-engine floatplanes about and the only one that is truly workable--- the de Havilland Twin Otter--- costs an arm a leg to operate.

Finally, aircraft engines and aircraft systems, particularly in the planes we fly, are maintained to a far higher standard than most recreational boat engines and systems.

My wife is more concerned with redundancy on the water than I am.* As I have said, I have no inherent bias against single-engine boats.* I just don't want one.* Partly because my wife is more confident and relaxed with two under the floor, which in my view trumps any and all operational and cost*advantages of having just*one.*

And partly because I simply like running engines.* While I believe a competent boater can do anything with a single that can be done with a twin--- different techniques but same end results--- I get much more* of a kick out of manipulating two engines than I do from manipulating just one.* What I'd really like are three engines but that's not going to happen in the kind of boats we all tend to have.

PS--- I should add that the reason a twin engine plane can become so*nasty after losing an engine is not because they automatically*become difficult to fly but because they immediately acquire very specific performance envelopes and require very specific control procedures that must be followed right now.* If the pilot is not proficient at dealing with these---* which describes*many if not most*recreational twin-engine airfcraft pilots--- the plane can get away from them and they lose control to the point of being unable to regain it.* In other words, it's not the airplane's fault, it's the pilot's fault.

-- Edited by Marin on Friday 11th of November 2011 02:12:40 PM

Marin 11-11-2011 12:36 PM

RE: What would you do?
1 Attachment(s)

skipperdude wrote:
*Have you ever been out with someone that says "That port engine is giving me a little trouble."

If you only have one engine that doesn't happen . You don't go out.
*Unless, of course, you are already out when the one engine starts giving "a little trouble."* Which is usually what tends to happen.* And if "a little trouble" turns into a shutdown, unless you can fix it yourself on the spot, your only choice most of the time is to come home on the end of a rope.* Not a big deal where towboats are close by and there are numerous places you can get towed to with fix-it people in residence.* But in remote country like we have up north, it could be a very long and very expensive tow.* Assuming the towboat got to you before the tidal current parked you on a rock :-)

Photos are off the web and I don't know the causes but it's what can happen either by driving a boat aground or having the current do it for you.


JohnP 11-11-2011 02:08 PM

RE: What would you do?

Marin wrote: * But in remote country like we have up north, it could be a very long and very expensive tow.* Assuming the towboat got to you before the tidal current parked you on a rock :-
*Marin,* I would hope someone would be able to anchor before being swept ashore.

However the security of two engines in remote areas, probably makes for a more relaxing cruising experience. I only had one twin engined boat and it was gas powered, I was always fixing one or the other.* Double trouble I called it. With reliable diesels it must be great.






Marin 11-11-2011 02:56 PM

RE: What would you do?

JohnP wrote:
*Marin,* I would hope someone would be able to anchor before being swept ashore.
That's the theory and in fact is what one is advised to do upon losing control of the boat and being in danger of being pushed ashore by the wind or current (or both).* Let the anchor all the way out and hope it snags on something before the boat touches bottom.

But.... there is no guarantee it will work, and I've heard of enough instances where it didn't work* to not put any faith in it at all.

I know a lot of people with twin-engine boats (diesel) and while some of them have had an engine issue with one or the other engine from time to time (we have) it's not a frequent enough occurance to be concerned about.* This is assuming good engines to start with that have been properly operated and maintained.

A boat with worn out, unmaintained,*or abused engines is another matter. And of course the same unreliability can be achieved with a single engine boat, too.

Per 11-11-2011 03:30 PM

RE: What would you do?
what are the legal requirements of charter boats? any rules regarding one or two engines?
i know in aviation there are specific rules, especially regarding single engine plane used operating charters and the type of operations they are legally allowed to do.

Marin 11-11-2011 03:50 PM

RE: What would you do?

Per wrote:
what are the legal requirements of charter boats? any rules regarding one or two engines?
We chartered a single engine GB36 before we bought our own boat.* The local GB charter fleet in Bellingham has both single and twin engine boats in it.

As to boats that are used in commercial charter--- taking fishermen out and so forth--- there are USCG regulations that apply to all manner of things from fire equipment to life saving equipment.* But I've never heard of any that are related to the number of engines.* And I know of several single-engine boats in fishing charter or whale watch service in the US and BC.* But I'm not very familiar at all with commercial vessel requirements.

Tidahapah 11-12-2011 07:39 PM

RE: What would you do?
Now that Tony Flemming has introduced a Flemming 50 may be wait another year or so and get a second hand F 50
But all in all a 2 nd hand 55 would still be my choice.
A bigger (well built and designed) boat is allways a better sea boat , more comfortable boat than a smaller unit.

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