B.C. Becoming Concerned Over Cruise Ship By Pass

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Frosty said:
That may be a worthy conversation. I think at issue here is doing it for a temporary situation that would mostly benefit foreign-flagged vessels vs. stepping back and taking an overall look at the whole law and how it could be improved (or kept the same) going forward.

Not changing it now for this specific/temporary situation doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at in full for future - I agree (and would have to learn more before I'd have an informed opinion).

Right now the loophole that foreign-flagged vessels have been happily using for years has turned temporarily sour, so they (and Alaska) want to change the rules. That kind of sticks in my craw. Alaska would benefit, but you have to think the foreign-flagged cruise lines would probably benefit ten times more.

On the other hand, maybe it's fine to bend the rules right now. I only started posting in this thread because people were making it sound like Canada was the bad guy and was somehow stopping cruise ships going from Seattle to Alaska -- when actually it is a US shipping law that is doing it!
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I agree that the Jones Act is outdated. I also agree this is a U.S. law, therefore is a USA problem.

I am not blaming Canada. They are trying to stop the spread of the virus. However, if everyone on a cruise ship has had the poke in the arm, then why not allow the cruise ships to dock?
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction said:
I agree that the Jones Act is outdated. I also agree this is a U.S. law, therefore is a USA problem.

I am not blaming Canada. They are trying to stop the spread of the virus. However, if everyone on a cruise ship has had the poke in the arm, then why not allow the cruise ships to dock?
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Well because people with the poke in the arm have contracted covid, they can continue to be asymptomatic and thus continue to spread it. All the vaccine does is at best keeps you alive and out of hospital.
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction said:
However, if everyone on a cruise ship has had the poke in the arm, then why not allow the cruise ships to dock?
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Have you forgotten, a person poked in the arm can still carry and infect?

Secondly, whatever happens in this instance, Vancouver and Victoria will not be left off the ports of call when/if normalcy returns. They/we are just too damned nice to not stop by.
 
In Victoria, are the store fronts along the downtown area small mom and pop stores of cruise ship company stores, much like K-Town and Juneau?

I can't say all are mom and pop operations but most definitely are. Locally owned and not a franchise of something else. Many of the stores have been on Government street for decades. In fact, the shop which finally closed where I bought my first SLR camera - Konica T3 - in 1974 while I was a young Sub Lieutenant in the Canadian Navy in Fleet School in Esquimalt just closed down about three years ago. Then there have been evolution of types of stores as peoples taste changed. So in Victoria for your bone China, there were two notable stores that were there for decades until people stopped buying bone china, one on the corner on Government street right by the Empress. Even some of the tacky tourist shops have been there for decades. Rogers chocolates, god knows how long its been there, tried looking it up but their own site doesn't mention it but I'm guessing 50 years or more. Same with the book store, Murchie's tea and the place where I used to purchase pipes and tobacco, even to this day they have a post in the store with a pipe coming out of it with a flame coming out the end, so you can light your pipe and more recently cigars. Some are chains but the originals started on Government street like Rogers chocolate.

And to wet your appetite:

https://www.rogerschocolates.com/our-story/our-history/heritage-store
 
Alaskan Sea-Duction said:
I am not blaming Canada. They are trying to stop the spread of the virus. However, if everyone on a cruise ship has had the poke in the arm, then why not allow the cruise ships to dock?
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I would guess it is because the vaccines are not a 100% guarantee, and at the moment we aren't sure how well they are going to work against several variants. That doesn't mean people shouldn't get vaccinated - it's definitely an improvement over not doing so, IMO. (I have been vaccinated, despite my initial preference for not taking a "new" vaccine, because I decided it was better for me and society than the alternative.)

For example, we are not sure that a vaccinated person could not bring in one of the more dangerous variants and transmit it, even if not sick.

But even with vaccines, we are still supposed to mask and distance (because as mentioned above, they are not perfect and there are unknowns right now with the variants). So to my mind, that makes it a bad idea for Canada to say "sure, send the cruise ships in." (Same reason US is limiting people from certain places, AFAIK.)

On top of all that, is that if cruise ship passengers are like people I see in random daily life, there will be many people not wearing properly fitted masks, putting them down on their necks, etc. How does a normal sized cruise ship staff ascertain that everyone is wearing them correctly? I don't see that as possible.

I'm not Canada, but there are my thoughts.
 
JLD said:
Maybe Congress needs to revisit the Jones Act anyway?


Jim
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Alaskan Sea-Duction said:
I agree that the Jones Act is outdated. I also agree this is a U.S. law, therefore is a USA problem.

dock?
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All true but I can think of a dozen or so US laws that fall in the same catagory... chances of doing what is reasonable and common sense are likely slim to none!
Existing laws just don't get changed or repealed all that often and not because of "common sense"
 
rsn48 said:
.....If I were King of Victoria, I would limit the number of passengers and hence limit the number of cruise ships coming into port.......
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Except that each ship pays a TON of money to dock there. There's a port charge that can be $30-40$ dollars, a head tax for each passenger that can add up to $50k, then fees for line handlers, pilot, customs, immigration, and so on.

The King of Victoria might like getting $75k per ship, per day, every day. I know its a short season, but I bet it fills up the town coffers pretty well.
 
Benthic2 said:
Except that each ship pays a TON of money to dock there. There's a port charge that can be $30-40$ dollars, a head tax for each passenger that can add up to $50k, then fees for line handlers, pilot, customs, immigration, and so on.

The King of Victoria might like getting $75k per ship, per day, every day. I know its a short season, but I bet it fills up the town coffers pretty well.
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Canada does it slightly different...

Victoria has a Harbour Authority, which is a non profit organization and owns and directs it's own business. The cities have representation on the board. The Harbour pays municipal taxes on the properties.

Vancouver is a Port Authority. Along with Nanaimo, Prince Rupert, and Port Alberni. They have a board of federally appointed, Provincially appointed, and municipal appointed members. They are arm's length from the federal government, but essentially federal entity.

Either way, they aren't paying the cities they operate in directly.

FWIW, red rail harbours in BC are also harbour authorities. Used to be federally owned, but now are run by non profit organizations, through a lease agreement with the feds.
 
Thanks everyone, great posts. Victoria is one place we have not visited yet, but is on the bucket list.
 
Alaskan problem

I am in Charleston, SC and our chamber of commerce claimed that the cruise ships were putting passengers on our streets who were spending like drunken sailors. Meanwhile they are pumping out exhaust from engines for the generators all over our downtown and peninsula. The local paper looked into and discovered that the average per passenger was a whooping $47.00 bucks per passenger. That is not big money by any standard. I’m betting that is true for most ports except for the bogus duty free ports in the Caribbean. Pay US taxes and get the benefits. Don’t pay put up your tears.
 
I have not reead all 4 pages of comments, but to clarify a couple points. There is some confusion between "Flag" and "Built". The jones act is concerned with US Built Vessels, the purpose, as has been explained within comments, was to insure a steady workforce in the Shipbuilding sector in case of time of war. As a mattere of fact, any US Built, Jones act complaint vessel is subject to seizure by the US Government in need of maritime defense. Some great history on this topic during WWII.

But, the Flagging of a vessel is not the issue here, it is "U.S. vs Foreign BUILT". It would be EXTREMELY difficult to flag a foreign vessel in US, and likewise, you can flag a US Vessel foreign, but would have a VERY difficult time getting that vessel back into US Registry (Flag).

There are recent cases for an exemption from the Jones Act. When Shell Oil had their drilling program in the Arctic, they had a very specific requirement for a vessel invloved in their Spill Response Plan. There are no US vessels that met their requirement, thus an exemption was granted to foreighn tankers, Dutch Tugs/OSRV. (Let alone a lot of $$ lining the pockets of politicians)
Alan T hit the nail on the head, these exemptions are viewed as possibly eroding the general purpose of the Jones Act, and beleive me, there are Millions of dollars spent annually on lobyists to ensure the Jones Act is not compromised.

Interestingly, off topic, the Yukon River is exempt from the Jones Act. Not sure why and have never seen any foreign vessel in the River moving commerce.

BTW: Been shipping to all areas of Alaska for over 35 years.
 
RowboatBob said:
There is some confusion between "Flag" and "Built". The jones act is concerned with US Built Vessels…But, the Flagging of a vessel is not the issue here, it is "U.S. vs Foreign BUILT".
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Most times when I read about the Jones Act, I find it stated like this June 2020 article produced by US Senators and Representatives: “The Jones Act requires that all vessels carrying goods between two U.S. points be American-built, owned, crewed and flagged.”

https://www.defensenews.com/opinion...he-jones-act-is-still-needed-100-years-later/

It further states: “This policy provides stability to the U.S. maritime industry and helps to sustain 650,000 American jobs, resulting in $150 billion in economic benefits each year.”

But, back to the topic of BC angst, which I never believed existed, but made good CBC fodder for the drama class, this recent article has the Alaska Tourism Recovery Act, dead in the water.
https://www.cruiseindustrynews.com/...could-help-save-the-alaska-cruise-season.html
 
The Yukon River is not maintained by the USCG there for it does not fall under the Jones Act.

This is true for any lakes that are solely with in the boundaries of a single State.
 
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markpierce said:
So, some say Canadians don't want cruise ships serving Alaska just because their own ports are closed? It is America's decision, not Canada's!
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Who closed their border first?

Remember, it takes all summer to get the necessary supplies to the territories.
First into Canadian port then barge it up into the territories.
 
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slowgoesit said:
Thread WARNING!

Several posts have been overly political and disrespectful to forum members and have been removed.

Please respect the Trawler Forum Rules when posting. Failure to follow the rules will result in the thread being closed. We appreciate your attention to the rules in order to continue to make TF the user friendly, informative site that it is!
Click to expand...

But this is a purely political problem. Why not remove the whole thread? Isn't it time to get back to work and move on from the whole Covid1984 thing?
 
I didn't mean to stir the hornets nest.

That being said, it is true it is a political problem. A boat political problem. Georgia and Florida come to mind.

However, in my opinion what happens to the big boats has an affect on us littler trawlers, both U.S. and Canadian. There are a lot of maple leaves in Alaska.

I am hoping this and other border issues are resolved soon. I would like to cruise B.C. again.
 
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tiltrider1 said:
I think there is a bigger game in play. I really don't think this has much to do with Covid but Covid is the excuse to get something the Cruise lines have always wanted, the ability to sail from US port to US port while being flagged in another country. They are taking advantage of Canada's decisions to further their cause. Money is the issue, asking for a change because it would enable them to make more money wont fly. Blaming Canada for the demise of the cruise industry and offering a way to by pass Canada's unfair response has a much better chance of selling.

I think we as a group should not get sucked into the US/Canada finger pointing, doing so means you are being manipulated by big business.

Canada hasn't done anything wrong. A couple of Alaska senators getting big time maritime legislation passed through congress is a giant task. They are probably obligated to make the attempt to pay back the campaign donations they received.
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Tilt, I think you nailed it right there. There playing the Covid/Canada card and will slip this on thru.
 
RowboatBob said:
I have not reead all 4 pages of comments, but to clarify a couple points. There is some confusion between "Flag" and "Built". The jones act is concerned with US Built Vessels, the purpose, as has been explained within comments, was to insure a steady workforce in the Shipbuilding sector in case of time of war. As a mattere of fact, any US Built, Jones act complaint vessel is subject to seizure by the US Government in need of maritime defense. Some great history on this topic during WWII.



But, the Flagging of a vessel is not the issue here, it is "U.S. vs Foreign BUILT". It would be EXTREMELY difficult to flag a foreign vessel in US, and likewise, you can flag a US Vessel foreign, but would have a VERY difficult time getting that vessel back into US Registry (Flag).



There are recent cases for an exemption from the Jones Act. When Shell Oil had their drilling program in the Arctic, they had a very specific requirement for a vessel invloved in their Spill Response Plan. There are no US vessels that met their requirement, thus an exemption was granted to foreighn tankers, Dutch Tugs/OSRV. (Let alone a lot of $$ lining the pockets of politicians)

Alan T hit the nail on the head, these exemptions are viewed as possibly eroding the general purpose of the Jones Act, and beleive me, there are Millions of dollars spent annually on lobyists to ensure the Jones Act is not compromised.



Interestingly, off topic, the Yukon River is exempt from the Jones Act. Not sure why and have never seen any foreign vessel in the River moving commerce.



BTW: Been shipping to all areas of Alaska for over 35 years.
Click to expand...



The Jones Act is not the only operative law, some might say it is a minor player in the current controversy compared to the Passenger Vessel Services Act which does deal with the “flagging” of vessels.
 
HeadedToTexas said:
But this is a purely political problem. Why not remove the whole thread? Isn't it time to get back to work and move on from the whole Covid1984 thing?
Click to expand...


HTT, There were enough items being discussed that could be of benefit to the general membership that the decision was made to not close the thread unless it got totally out of line. For the most part, the TF members heeded the warning that some of the posts were out of line and the thread remained opened. But that's subject to change.

Fair winds and following seas all!
 
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/canada-extends-cruise-ship-ban-2022-alaska/index.html

So, I am sure that this has been discussed, too lazy here to read the entire thread. It looks like cruise ships with 100 or fewer passengers or personal vessels are not affected? I am sort of confused by this article. For instance, pleasure craft used by LOCAL ARTIC RESIDENTS sounds like if you are not local, you are banned? Thinking of doing NW Explorations, and this is one of their best trips I think.

The government said "passenger vessels carrying more than 12 people are still prohibited from entering Arctic coastal waters. ... Pleasure craft used by local Arctic residents will not be affected by these measures."


Cruise line says only vaccinated passengers can sail But the bigger vacation impact will be for folks who enjoy the big cruise ship experience. Cruise ships that ferry more than 100 passengers will still be prohibited from operating in Canadian waters.

It's notable that there's no ban on "smaller cruise ships certified to carry 100 or fewer people."
 
HeadedToTexas said:
Thank you for playing? It's not a game, Flyer. I have sacrificed enough already. I am not playing along any more. The world's reaction to Covid1984 is pure politics and We the People are losing our liberty as a result. No more playing.
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What have you sacrificed?

By the looks of it you have a private dock and house on the water.

A beautiful boat!

And obviously good Health as your still alive!

What’s the fuss?
 
Well all in all I think things are going pretty good! I was diagnosed with cancer in February 2020 and I’m still alive. My mother died of cancer during Covid and I couldn’t see her. My wife is a nurse and is currently isolated in my bedroom and I haven’t been able to see her in almost 14 days. It’s Easter tomorrow and I can’t have our Grand kids over.
We are all alive and healthy and for the first god damn time in my life I will say thank god for technology so we can at least each other.
Give your bloody head a shake that you are paying a price!, what you can’t go to chucky cheese,,! Simply entitled idiots are going to destroy this world.

And yes we were silly masks in my own home! My wife is a nurse my daughter is a nurse, my daughter Inlaw is a nurse, my step daughter is a care aid, my mother was a care aid.
Trust me we have this **** figured out!
 
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