10 Common Buyers’ mistakes during Survey

[CharlieO.]

This is why I asked if requirements of sea trial testing are specified in the P&S agreement or assumed.

Just curious as I have never gone down that road(river?). I was one that commented about our buying without survey or sea trial. Now our next boat may be higher in budget so we may do it differently then.

 

[twistedtree]

This is why I asked if requirements of sea trial testing are specified in the P&S agreement or assumed.

Not that I have ever seen. The buyer typically has full discretion over inspection and can reject for any reason. It's certainly expected, if not stated that inspection and testing be non-destructive. And the seller operates the boat for the sea trial so the buyer doesn't have the opportunity to break anything.


The concern seems to be that running at WOT for 10 minutes or so will break or otherwise damage the boat, so a seller might not allow it. The other side is the view that if 10 minutes of WOT breaks a boat, it's just exposing a boat this is already broken.


I have never heard of a conflict over WOT in a sea trial, and so far nobody has cited an example of it happening. We have people who have not done sea trials, or not done them with a WOT throttle test. And we have people who say they would not allow a WOT test. And we have people who would insist on a WOT test. But so far the "I insist" people never seem to have encountered the "I refuse" people.

 

[ksanders]

Not that I have ever seen. The buyer typically has full discretion over inspection and can reject for any reason. It's certainly expected, if not stated that inspection and testing be non-destructive. And the seller operates the boat for the sea trial so the buyer doesn't have the opportunity to break anything.


The concern seems to be that running at WOT for 10 minutes or so will break or otherwise damage the boat, so a seller might not allow it. The other side is the view that if 10 minutes of WOT breaks a boat, it's just exposing a boat this is already broken.


I have never heard of a conflict over WOT in a sea trial, and so far nobody has cited an example of it happening. We have people who have not done sea trials, or not done them with a WOT throttle test. And we have people who say they would not allow a WOT test. And we have people who would insist on a WOT test. But so far the "I insist" people never seem to have encountered the "I refuse" people.

It's one thing when a potential buyer asks for specific throttle settings.

It's another thing when a authorized dealer employed mechanic, with equipment connected to the engine, and literally wearing a factory mechanic uniform requests a specific throttle setting.

Pretty difficult to turn the latter down.

 

[Choices]

I must admit that every sea trial I have been apart of we did WOT. As I mentioned three involved catastrophic failures, one loss of vessel. Even tore the Bimini clean off a Bertram we were going so fast.

All brand new boats, factory owned, headed for change of ownership within the day. So if new kind of makes sense.

Cummins recommended running the engines 100rpm off WOT. We ran them that way for three hours, twice a day, three times a week, seas permitting. These were sport fishermen, Bertram, Hatteras, and Styrikers.

My GB is 30 years old. Not marketed as new. I get a kick out of people buying homes, boats , cars wanting everything as new, AND a deprecated price. Unless the market moves upward.

I did not ask for a WOT test on my boat when I bought it, and the seller and I discussed it during the test. He was uncomfortable with it, and I saw no need for it. I only had a survey for insurance reasons.

So I would say the test is an old school test for system robustness. Not really applicable to my trawler.

At my cruising rpm of 1650, a lot can be questionable and still perform fine in that parameter.

Most diesels are factory broken on dynos before final paint and shipment. Those records are sometimes still available.

I don't see any reason to run a GB KK, or Defever WOT to see if a hose will leak or a cooler is clogged. Most guys here do preventive maintenance well before then or within their operating conditions.

If I bought a boat that was not maintained then a WOT test becomes an even greater risk.

But yes, I think it is fair to disclose to the broker and buyer we will not be doing that test, before any money of buyers is spent. If he walks, he walks. Everyone sleeps fine that night.

 

[mvweebles]

Where I landed on Survey Process, Sea Trial, WOT.

I'm far from a buyer - Weebles is likely the last boat I'll own (famous last words). But if I were in the market, would very likely be a pretty standard displacemen/semi-displacement boat in the 50-foot range. Here's how I would approach it (and if I were a seller, I'd be fine with this too).

In the Agreement, I would describe:

1. Approx 3 hour Sea Trial based on the Check List I offered up-thread (re-attached for convenience). Although it's in the document, I would inform broker that I ask the sea trial to be a standalone event, and it should include a WOT test of at least 5-minutes followed by a 30-min run at 80%. Seller to operate the boat. I would take engine oil samples at that time. On more sophisticated boats, I would pay very careful attention to the electronics and integration because it can be incredibly expensive to resolve issues.

2. Mechanical Survey by a marine diesel mechanic, but only after I have accepted the Sea Trial and have the oil analysis in hand. He will need the engines started again, perhaps want WOT test again. I know it's inconvenient, but not out-of-line in my opinion. I would be open to paying the Seller's captain a reasonable hourly fee to return to operate the boat.

3. Hull & Valuation Survey. Only after Steps 1 and 2 are accepted would I schedule the full Survey.

I would probably share the results of each step along the way, but would try not to negotiate until I have all the information. Exception would be if I find something that is a deal killer issue - over-heating during WOT would be one reason. But generally, I would make the seller aware of my findings and then present a revised offer based on the findings at the end. Would be a case-by-case basis.

Given the discussion in this thread, I know there are folks who would not be comfortable with my due-diligence process and would kick my offer to the curb which is fine - no sense either of us losing brain cells. In my mind, I don't want to get stuck with a boat with surprises. I would hope both the broker and seller would appreciate that, but it takes two to dance. To my defense, I'll repeat what I said in the opening paragraph: I'd be fine with this process as a seller. Sure, it adds several days and perhaps an extra ride on the water, but I think it's a fair process.

Peter

View attachment SeaSkills Sea Trial Template.pdf

 

[smitty477]

I'm far from a buyer - Weebles is likely the last boat I'll own (famous last words). But if I were in the market, would very likely be a pretty standard displacemen/semi-displacement boat in the 50-foot range. Here's how I would approach it (and if I were a seller, I'd be fine with this too).

In the Agreement, I would describe:

1. Approx 3 hour Sea Trial based on the Check List I offered up-thread (re-attached for convenience). Although it's in the document, I would inform broker that I ask the sea trial to be a standalone event, and it should include a WOT test of at least 5-minutes followed by a 30-min run at 80%. Seller to operate the boat. I would take engine oil samples at that time. On more sophisticated boats, I would pay very careful attention to the electronics and integration because it can be incredibly expensive to resolve issues.

2. Mechanical Survey by a marine diesel mechanic, but only after I have accepted the Sea Trial and have the oil analysis in hand. He will need the engines started again, perhaps want WOT test again. I know it's inconvenient, but not out-of-line in my opinion. I would be open to paying the Seller's captain a reasonable hourly fee to return to operate the boat.

3. Hull & Valuation Survey. Only after Steps 1 and 2 are accepted would I schedule the full Survey.

I would probably share the results of each step along the way, but would try not to negotiate until I have all the information. Exception would be if I find something that is a deal killer issue - over-heating during WOT would be one reason. But generally, I would make the seller aware of my findings and then present a revised offer based on the findings at the end. Would be a case-by-case basis.

Given the discussion in this thread, I know there are folks who would not be comfortable with my due-diligence process and would kick my offer to the curb which is fine - no sense either of us losing brain cells. In my mind, I don't want to get stuck with a boat with surprises. I would hope both the broker and seller would appreciate that, but it takes two to dance. To my defense, I'll repeat what I said in the opening paragraph: I'd be fine with this process as a seller. Sure, it adds several days and perhaps an extra ride on the water, but I think it's a fair process.

Peter

View attachment 137899

"Given the discussion in this thread, I know there are folks who would not be comfortable with my due-diligence process and would kick my offer to the curb which is fine - no sense either of us losing brain cells. In my mind, I don't want to get stuck with a boat with surprises. I would hope both the broker and seller would appreciate that, but it takes two to dance. To my defense, I'll repeat what I said in the opening paragraph: I'd be fine with this process as a seller. Sure, it adds several days and perhaps an extra ride on the water, but I think it's a fair process."

Might work if the buyer and seller were located reasonably close, along with the broker, and if the seller had a captain, and when scheduling surveyors is easy, and competent mechanics are available, and Marina haul-outs are easily scheduled and completed.
Perhaps that works out for others, but in my experience most of those never align with each other.

 

[CharlieO.]

So when finding a boat to consider buying is a sea trial usually the first thing you do after buyer and seller have agreed on a price?

What order do you usually do things? Offer, survey, sea trial, mechanical, haul out? I didn't put in any particular order^^

Again, just curious as that is not a route we've taken yet.

 

[mvweebles]

"

Perhaps that works out for others, but in my experience most of those never align with each other.

Doesn't that mean it makes more sense to keep the events separate so multiple achedules do not need to be simultaneously arranged? Or are you saying too many inspections and surveys?

Thoughts?

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

So when finding a boat to consider buying is a sea trial usually the first thing you do after buyer and seller have agreed on a price?

What order do you usually do things? Offer, survey, sea trial, mechanical, haul out? I didn't put in any particular order^^

Again, just curious as that is not a route we've taken yet.

The transactions I was familiar with were all in California, Oregon, and Washington. Sea trial was always first, and often scheduled as a simple ride to the yard for haul. What I'm suggesting is to be more rigorous with sea trial and make it a solo event. There is no cost to buyer for sea trial, and I suspect few buyers give much thought on what they are looking for so it may make sense to hire a professional.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

So when finding a boat to consider buying is a sea trial usually the first thing you do after buyer and seller have agreed on a price?

What order do you usually do things? Offer, survey, sea trial, mechanical, haul out? I didn't put in any particular order^^

Again, just curious as that is not a route we've taken yet.

I think you need to be flexible on the order of operations. You will have a yard to schedule for a haul out, a hull surveyor, a mechanical surveyor who will need a sea trial (and probably the hull surveyor too), plus whatever inspections you want to do. It’s a lot to coordinate and schedule, especially when your contract typically gives you a finite amount of time to do it all. So I think you just need to see what you can piece together, and how. And I’d attempt to find bug problems early such that you can limit further spending if the boats a dud. I think this is the motivation behind doing a mechanical sea trial first, then follow with haulout and hull survey.

 

[Rufus]

Our for-sale boat is in heated winter storage. The (reverse from normal) process will be: buyer walk through, contractual offer to buy. If offer accepted by the seller....out-of-water survey followed by launch/sea trial. Last step is price negotiation (if any). If a deal is reached the boat will likely stay in a short-term slip (buyer's choice). If no deal, the buyer will pay to have it hauled and placed back inside the building. There will be one afloat session under power. Inspections/procedures done in a temporary slip and paid for by the buyer can be arranged.

 

[twistedtree]

Our for-sale boat is in heated winter storage. The (reverse from normal) process will be: buyer walk through, contractual offer to buy. If offer accepted by the seller....out-of-water survey followed by launch/sea trial. Last step is price negotiation (if any). If a deal is reached the boat will likely stay in a short-term slip (buyer's choice). If no deal, the buyer will pay to have it hauled and placed back inside the building. There will be one afloat session under power. Inspections/procedures done in a temporary slip and paid for by the buyer can be arranged.

Great example of how circumstances will influence the order of operations.

 

[mvweebles]

Our for-sale boat is in heated winter storage. The (reverse from normal) process will be: buyer walk through, contractual offer to buy. If offer accepted by the seller....out-of-water survey followed by launch/sea trial. Last step is price negotiation (if any). If a deal is reached the boat will likely stay in a short-term slip (buyer's choice). If no deal, the buyer will pay to have it hauled and placed back inside the building. There will be one afloat session under power. Inspections/procedures done in a temporary slip and paid for by the buyer can be arranged.

Rufus - are these customary terms in your location? On CruisersForum, I've seen a couple discussions about who pays to re-wrap a boat if the sale falls through. Given the purchase agreements I've read state seller is responsible for all costs until closing, there would either be a different agreement of a modification.

I know there are some regional variations. In SF Bay, at least when I was there, surveyor rarely did anything with engine or rigging. In other parts of the country, survey is more comprehensive.

Always interesting to see differences.

Peter

 

[Rufus]

Per the broker I'm paying for the initial launch and the costs associated with the sea trial. No sale...the non-buyer puts it back where he found it. There's no shrink wrap involved if that's what you mean. Travel lift and reblocking only.
There will be an addendum to the basic contract language as I understand it. I continue to pay for indoor (or outdoor) storage. I might end up paying for one day slip rental depending on who shows up when. Beyond that we'll fight about it.... No way will I leave it in the water over the summer or for an extended negotiating period. We'll be leaving the area in early summer regardless..scares the hell out of me leaving it outside unattended with a broker as overseer.

 

[smitty477]

Doesn't that mean it makes more sense to keep the events separate so multiple achedules do not need to be simultaneously arranged? Or are you saying too many inspections and surveys?

Thoughts?

Peter

]
It means that this is unrealistic in our area for many years now....
"To my defense, I'll repeat what I said in the opening paragraph: I'd be fine with this process as a seller. Sure, it adds several days and perhaps an extra ride on the water, but I think it's a fair process."

I have bought and sold a dozen boats above 25' and putting schedules together for any of the required tasks takes much time and effort.
Stringing them together like this with folks traveling, marina schedules, surveyor, mechanic, in and out of water maybe 2X, is a non-starter unless you have months to wait.
As a buyer I do not choose to wait months
As a seller I would never hold a boat for months.

 

[smitty477]

Our for-sale boat is in heated winter storage. The (reverse from normal) process will be: buyer walk through, contractual offer to buy. If offer accepted by the seller....out-of-water survey followed by launch/sea trial. Last step is price negotiation (if any). If a deal is reached the boat will likely stay in a short-term slip (buyer's choice). If no deal, the buyer will pay to have it hauled and placed back inside the building. There will be one afloat session under power. Inspections/procedures done in a temporary slip and paid for by the buyer can be arranged.

This is more or less what we are used to as well.
And this will often require weeks to schedule and complete without any unusual problems.

 

[JDCAVE]

It’s my understanding that one reason for the WOT test is to determine if it is “over propped” or not.

Jim

 

[ranger58sb]

What order do you usually do things? Offer, survey, sea trial, mechanical, haul out? I didn't put in any particular order^^

After offers are in place, with deposit and so forth...

We've only ever done marine survey (including haul out), mechanical survey, and sea trial all at once... both on the buying and selling end.

-Chris

 

[backinblue]

Somewhat similar to Rufus, my current boat was in indoor heated storage. Offer was accepted and survey complete. However, it was January in VT so no sea trial could take place. Sale was compleetd with (I think $20K?) held in escrow pending satisfactory completion of the sea trial. That took place in the spring includng a few minutes at WOT. It then sat in a slip for a few weeks before it could be moved through the canals. The marina owner acted as the seller's broker so I doubt there was little to any charge related to the launching and storage.

 

[sunchaser]

We’ve many friends whose boats have been sold without listing or brokers. In all cases I’ve seen these are “cream puff” vessels that pretty much sell themselves.

The same basic steps occur regarding sea trials and surveys but with buyer and seller working things through. Title companies and off the book brokers can be engaged for proper handling of paper work and funds transfers.

Face Book often is used as the “FSBO” notifications. This approach can be started by nothing more complicated than walking the docks and talking to people. But, “cream puff” must be real and not imagined with one owner boats the potential ideal.

 

[backinblue]

My boat was a "cream puff" when I bought it. One owner, less than 10 yrs old, 400 hours on engine, 10 on generator, fresh water boat, short summer season and indoor heated storage. Someone made a comment about not needing a survey since I was practically buying a new boat. Still, the survey found a number of issues and even missed some bigger ones, so I would not skip the survey under almost all circumstances. After 5 years of lots of love and money, the boat today is better than when I bought it.

 

[SteveK]

My boat was a "cream puff" when I bought it. One owner, less than 10 yrs old, 400 hours on engine, 10 on generator, fresh water boat, short summer season and indoor heated storage. Someone made a comment about not needing a survey since I was practically buying a new boat. Still, the survey found a number of issues and even missed some bigger ones, so I would not skip the survey under almost all circumstances. After 5 years of lots of love and money, the boat today is better than when I bought it.

A survey is useful if insurance wants it, as in must have to get insurance. It is useful for the buyer that is not hands on to know immediate future expenses.

As per your post, it did not find some bigger issues. With a visual non mechanical inspection I would not expect it to catch 100% of issues.
Now a mechanical inspection is worth every penny when done by an experienced mechanic.

 

[backinblue]

A survey is useful if insurance wants it, as in must have to get insurance. It is useful for the buyer that is not hands on to know immediate future expenses.

As per your post, it did not find some bigger issues. With a visual non mechanical inspection I would not expect it to catch 100% of issues.
Now a mechanical inspection is worth every penny when done by an experienced mechanic.

To clarify, the bigger issues that were NOT found were NOT engine related. I had one surveyor not a different surveyor and engine mechanic. Admittedly my boat is smaller and less complicated than many here, although still the most complicated boat I've owned coming from sailing. Also, insurance did not require a survey, maybe due to the age or size or value, idk.

 

[twistedtree]

Somewhat similar to Rufus, my current boat was in indoor heated storage. Offer was accepted and survey complete. However, it was January in VT so no sea trial could take place. Sale was compleetd with (I think $20K?) held in escrow pending satisfactory completion of the sea trial. That took place in the spring includng a few minutes at WOT. It then sat in a slip for a few weeks before it could be moved through the canals. The marina owner acted as the seller's broker so I doubt there was little to any charge related to the launching and storage.

I did a very similar deal years back. Everything was surveyed and the deal closed in Feb in New England with an escrowed holdback pending successful sea trial on spring launch. I think I put a time limit on it too that would release the escrow regardless after a certain date, just to keep the buyer from dragging their feet. It all worked out fine.

 

[Don L]

Thoughts?

Peter
aka "Big Dog"

View attachment 137847

Just to get back on track some, I found the attached checksheet pretty interesting and think it would be worth it for all of us to go through it on our boats once in a while.