Anchor size, big is better?

[rochepoint]

Marin
The second photo in your post #175 is taken where?

 

[Northern Spy]

Marin
The second photo in your post #175 is taken where?

Looks like Butchart Gardens.

 

[Marin]

Eric--- So much for your lectures on putting any excess weight in the bow of a boat is evil.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I could mention it in the future w a bit of provocation but I'll be far from excess in ground tackle w the above anchor and rode.

Most Willard 30 owners have a great deal more weight in their GT. Most have a 33lb anchor, a much bigger winch and a great deal more chain. That Dreadnought does add about 25lbs to the GT weight I had on my trip south (excluding the weight of 2 0r 3 extra anchors) but I have been running very light. Even with the Dreadnought 45 I'm considerably below the weight of most Willard owners in GT weight. So .. no I'm still minimizing the weight of my GT just not nearly as much.

You've got 100lbs of excessive chain and you've been talking about adding another 100lbs. So you're still very much in excess and I'm still rigging w less than average so I can still talk about your excess's but other than this post I don't intend to.

The move to this anchor is following my own frequent advice to concentrate one's GT weight in the most effectual part of the GT ... the anchor. In other words ... minimize rode weight and invest any savings into the anchor. Using you as an example I'd limit my chain to 100' and save 100lbs. Then you could buy a size bigger anchor and still save 75lbs. I think you've got a big enough anchor as it is but you're very determined to not ever drag again. You will though.

But I'm definitely not in excess in GT weight and still think being so is undesirable or "evil" as you put it. And I think just about everyone on this forum would call my use of an 18lb anchor as light. So that means I'm probably only increasing my GT weight by about 12lbs and still below average. I could get a 30# Rocna but the Dreadnought has a bit of 1938 Buick appeal to me and will probably provide excellent short scope performance and of course you know what I think of THAT.

But .. no I'm not going to badger you about chain weight Marin ... at least I won't bring it up. I've made my point long ago.

 

[Rex]

Bigger is better

Hi Eric.

Before re galvanizing your new toy, have the throat opening checked against the original spec’s, many of those style anchors get recycled simply because of the throat opening, to unsuspected buyer’s they appear to be in excellent order but may perform poorly because they are worn out.

All anchors throat openings are set to give not just the correct angle of penetration but to take full advantage of the weight-- fluke angle orientation controlled by the throat opening.

If the throat opening is excessively worn the anchor will stall, that is the flukes when load is applied will stand up to a position that is almost vertical –drag instead of penetrating, you may as well be deploying a block of concrete.

You may think you can overcome this problem by sitting shorter; the fluke angle will be less but the weight will not be converted into an advantage; you will also lose the driving force created by throat opening.

There are many of those style anchors here in shipwright yards, they look fine but when a surveyor checks them before they leave port and the throat opening is found to be outside of the specs, then they have to replace there anchors before they are allowed to steam.

CQR anchors –sand anchors any anchor with moving parts suffer exactly the same fate, moving parts create ware—salt and corrosion love attacking the worn of gal areas as a result ware --- movement.

Regards.
Rex.

CEO fo Anchor Right Australia.

 

[Marin]

Sorry Eric, your rationalization won't fly. You've been preaching for years about the horrors of putting even an ounce of excess weight in the bow of a boat. It was the basis for all your arguments for using little weenie anchors with no chain that the rest of us knew wouldn't hold a kayak in a sneeze, and now you go and buy a huge hunk of galvanized pig iron to stick on the bow of your boat.

I dunno, Eric, your credibility has been severely damaged by this one......

What's next? Three hundred and fifty feet of all chain rode and a bow railing so you won't fall off the boat hauling all that stuff up?








PS-- went by the marine hardware store in Anacortes today to see if they have driver bits for a brace but they're closed on Sundays. We've bought things there before but didn't remember their hours and couldn't find them on line. Well try again next Saturday. Fantastic store, it is.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Marin I'm overwhelmed w your flattery .. you've actually been listening to me! And I've been listening to you and the rest as well I do believe as I probably wouldn't have bought a bigger anchor w/o your council. And re all chain I do like to try different things. haha.

But Marin my "little weenie" anchor held this summer in a very strong gale.

"credibility? You must have skipped a few lines ... about my ground tackle being still clearly on the light side despite the anchor.

Rex I'm glad my frightful looking anchor didn't run you off. The Dreadnought isn't very cute is it. Great advice but I doubt if the specs are available as I've never seen one of these guys in my life and my life's been rather long. I have noticed the Dreadnoughts all seem to have a rather wide throat angle. Probably because ther'e all worm out cuse ther'e so old. I thought they were designed that way but perhaps not. I could easily change the throat angle. I do suspect they were originally wider than a Danforth but not as wide as they are. Splitting the difference would probably come close. I checked for wear and found the outside of the shank looked totally original so if it's worn the wear would have to be in the bolt hole to the shank. Is throat angle measured from fluke to shank or floor/bottom to shank?
Did these Dreadnoughts find their way to Australia? Ever seen one before? It's a lot like the Forfjord and much like the Navy too. The Forfjord is still being made so I may be able to get some throat angle information from them. Or even measure one of their anchors. The only real difference between the two anchors is the splayed out flukes of the Forfjord.

Anyway I did buy into the bigger is better. And as Marin says my credibility is sure to be in question w most as the old Dreadnought no doubt looks strange and weird and old. But it is very much like the Forfjord and the Navy. The Navy is very popular worldwide today and the Forfjord is the anchor of choice among fishermen in Alaska. Credibility maybe not so bad.

The new anchor.

 

[markpierce]

There's no doubt. Eric loves anchors. Most of us limit them to two.

... On the other hand, there's the horn fetish of "others."

 

[Rex]

bIGGER IS BETTER

Eric open the throat opening until shank is fully against stop, measure this inside angle-- to my knowledge should be no more than 35 degrees,cannot be a hundred percent sure, no,there are not many here in Australia, they get dumped here when they no longer meet the spec's, although I think there is a company in Western Australia that do make replicas.

Regards Rex.

CEO of Anchor Right Australia

 

[Larry M]

Here's the extreme.

 

[Rex]

Bigger is better

Larry M

That is typical of a very well worn anchor, when deployed the shank would be resting on the substrate and the flukes facing slightly rear ward.

Simply a slight resistance drag.

Regards Rex.

CEO of Anchor Right Australia.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Rex, all,
Found this Danforth in Prince Rupert. About as slack jaw as any Danforth I've ever seen.

After looking at the Dread yesterday I see where it's slightly bent. I'll take it to the machine shop where I used to work ... ther'e real good at bending w large hydraulic press. I'd like to separate the 2 flukes for re-galvavizing but I may not as they are held together w 3 big rivets and while grinding the heads off I may grind on the head and nut seats so the nuts and/or heads may not seat flush. Drilling them off would be the simplest but centering the drill could be a problem. My machine shop guys may have some tricks for that though.
I'll take off the shank today and check the pin hole for wear. On re-assembly I could use a bolt but I wonder why they used a pin in the first place. The bolt would help hold the fluke halves together..? Then I'll blast and re-galvanize.
I have yet to compare the other Dreadnought to this one and may find a meaningful difference.

Rex I've read numerous times about the golden throat angle of the Danforth but don't recall the number. I'm guessing 32 degrees. I'm wondering why this anchor has such a long shank and I'm also wondering why it's round.

 

[Marin]

So Rex et al---- What is it that causes the throat angle of these anchors to open up? Years of the flukes being forced against their stops? Or the actual bending of the flukes themselves at their bases?

PS-- Eric. I always read what you write. I may not always agree with it but even if some of it is armchair theory I know it's based on logic which in turn is based on real world experience.

 

[Rex]

Bigger is better

Marin,

All anchor designs with moving fall to the same fate, ware,as soon as the gal wears of corrossion is rapid, further sand anchors dread naughts, all rear pivoting shanks have enourmous leverage applied, concentrated on the shank stop and the shank pivot, that last post of ERIC'S IS a typical example of an anchor looking fine but worn beyond it's limits.

Erics anchor with the long shank, this anchor is obviously not a high holding power anchor,it will bury no deeper than the crown and has small flukes, if your short anchor rhode is laying, then pulled tight with a bullet of wind, your rhode would need to be greater than 35 degrees otherwise the flukes will just skip across the substrate.

The long shank would only enhance this problem because of the leverage it has over it's flukes,further this design would rely on heavy chain and long rhode I believe is needed to keep the shank as low as possible.

I also believe it is limmited in the types of substrate it will be effective in.

Eric you will find the shank to be off high tensile steel, so will be the shank pivot, one millimeter of wear on the pivot can raise the end shank hieght by ten millimeters, the higher ,the wider the throat opening the less drive on the flukes is produced.

The origional CQR anchors had long shanks, the longer the shank the more stable dragging when setting, long shanks are also married to throat opening, the wider the throat opening the longer the shank has to be to create drive through it's fluke.

Eric this is why I say probably about 35 degrees, unless you have designed the anchor your self and fully understand the phyisic's you are playing with, then my advice is to leave well enough alone.

Regards Rex

CEO of Anchor Right Australia.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Rex, How right you are.

The more I look at this beauty/thing the more worn out it seems/appears to be.The shank has been bent, heated and bent the opposite way (straightened) but not really straight. Significant chunks of metal are gone in the "shank stop" area inside the center of the anchor where the shank disappears. One fluke is bent so the two flukes are 1.25" from being parallel and I can't believe I didn't notice that before. The pin and shank hole clank back and forth about 3/32" and the throat angle is a bit over 45 degrees. I admit it's junk. My mistake.

Rex writes;
"Erics anchor with the long shank, this anchor is obviously not a high holding power anchor,it will bury no deeper than the crown and has small flukes, if your short anchor rhode is laying, then pulled tight with a bullet of wind, your rhode would need to be greater than 35 degrees otherwise the flukes will just skip across the substrate." Right again. But I felt I'd redeem most of the holding power by doubling the size of the anchor. And if I had a new Dreadnought that may be right ... but I don't.

And Rex I've never been fond of long shank anchors. Get the scope a bit short and pull on the rode a bit and the anchor is easily (because of the leverage of the long shank) pointed right up toward the surface so not much pull is required to pull it out. At least that's the way I see it. That's one of the main reasons I was attracted to the XYZ .. a very short shank. But I'm surprised you said the Dreadnought's shank is probably HT steel. I was afraid maybe it wasn't.

This Dreadnought thing did promote me to figure out how to mount it on the bow and of course it wasn't my idea at all but my friend Ed's in Alaska. Now if I notched my bow as previously shown in the pics of Ed's boat I could mount practically any anchor thus. So perhaps a 33 or 44# Ray could take the place of the Dreadnought or some other anchor. But actually I'm in pretty good hands w the anchors I presently have. But it's getting a tad difficult to handle them on the bow. Gotta have something to think about .. and talk about .... right??

 

[Nimble1]

I will add my limited knowledge to this discussion. On our little Nimble Nomad (about 5000 lbs) I carry a 15lb Manson Supreme. I know that its overkill for my boat. Most boaters in our area use a danforth style of some sort and the boat came with a Fortress FX-11. I found that the Fortress once set was great but never liked it. We don't anchor overnight a lot but when we do I want to feel secure. The Manson sets immediately and always holds. We don't usually anchor in very deep water and the bottoms are usually sand or mud and grassy. I never have trouble sleeping when I drop the Manson.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Nimble1,
I have a 15lb Supreme too and it works well on our 8 ton Willard. Did you know it's actually 18lbs? I think all the Supremes are several pounds heavier than they are labeled. Our MS dosn't set ultra quickly (as in just snagged a D8 Cat) but it sets dependably. I anchored in 85' of water in a small anchorage at a scope probably a bit less than 3-1 and it set fine. The other boat there shore tied and I probably should have too but there was no tales of wind in the forecast and there wasn't. I can handle the MS easily by hand and my choice of buying it was influenced partially by the good short scope performance reported in an extensive anchor test. Some aspects of anchor tests I frequently buy into.

 

[Nimble1]

Eric, if I take it off I will weigh it...LOL All I know is that my windlass (Me) can handle it pretty easily and it fits in my bow roller perfect.Good to know about the short scope but we seldom anchor in anything deeper than 20' of in skinny SW Fla water.

 

[Boatgm]

After reading and enjoying many of the related post I have ordered:
175 pound Lewmar Claw Anchor javascript:tearoff('html/ship_truck.html','Help',480,250)
one drum ½” Acco G-4 Hi-Test Chain
Maxwell VWC 3500 Series Vertical windlass
This will be added to the 130 pound cqr, big fortress and rode on board.

It’s a 35 ton boat.

Thanks