Any reason to choose Yanmar - Camano Troll?

[TheDory]

Hello,

I am in the hunt for a Camano Troll. Most obviously have Volvo's. From my research, these are excellent engines but parts may be a bit more pricey or difficult to find quickly and finding a good mechanic could be tougher. We're in the Annapolis area so there seems to be plenty of options for mechanics but if we break down somewhere else this could be a problem.

I won't pass on a boat because of Volvo, but because of these difficulties, is it worth looking for one with a Yanmar? Assuming all else is equal between boats, will the Yanmar potentially be cheaper to repair and easier to find mechanics for?

Any performance differences between the Volvo and Yanmar?

Thanks

 

[DavidM]

I would give a Yanmar powered Camano a slight edge over a Volvo powered one for these reasons:

Yanmar probably has 75% of the market for these medium size diesels, so mechanics who have experience with them are more available, but as you note Annapolis has almost everything available. Also a somewhat better parts availability (but not price) for the same reasons.

What Yanmar model are you expecting to find in the Camano, the 4LH or the newer 6BY. I prefer the former- no electronics and more displacement.

David

 

[TheDory]

Thanks David. The ones I've seen have the 4LHA. No electronics sounds great to me.

Curious if there's any performance differences between the Volvo and Yanmar or if speeds and fuel consumption are generally the same.

 

[DavidM]

I think that the Volvo TAMD engine is a smaller displacement therefore higher reving engine than the Yanmar 4LH. All else equivalent I would prefer the bigger displacement engine. With more displacement and 40 more hp the Yanmar can cruise at a slightly higher speed if desired.

Differences in fuel consumption at the same speed will be negligible.

Here is an old thread on TF discussing experiences with various engines for the Camano: https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s64/2003-camano-31-engine-options-differences-38152.html

David

 

[TheDory]

I had found that thread before. Thanks. I haven't seen anything about performance. The reason I'm curious is I spoke to a broker who said a Camano with the Yanmar probably tops out at 12 kts which is lower than what I believe Camano's can usually top out at. I figure he's mistaken but want to make sure.

 

[DavidM]

BTW, I was wrong about the Volvo’s displacement. It actually has slightly more than the Yanmar. Since the Yanmar produces more power at lower rpm it obviously has more boost and therefore is more highly stressed than the Volvo.

I chartered a Camino for a week with the Volvo. I recall it topping out at 15 kits and I fast cruised it at 12. The Yanmar might do a knot more at wot, but I would fast cruise it at 12 kits as well.

David

 

[TheDory]

Thanks David. Wanted to make sure there wasn't a difference in top end speed with the Yanmar. It's obviously a slow boat but we do like the availability of cruising 10-12 if possible vs 6-7.

 

[rwidman]

I think that the Volvo TAMD engine is a smaller displacement therefore higher reving engine than the Yanmar 4LH. All else equivalent I would prefer the bigger displacement engine. With more displacement and 40 more hp the Yanmar can cruise at a slightly higher speed if desired.

Differences in fuel consumption at the same speed will be negligible.

Here is an old thread on TF discussing experiences with various engines for the Camano: https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s64/2003-camano-31-engine-options-differences-38152.html

David

The Volvo TAMD41P has plenty of displacement, torque and power for the Camano Troll. It's not a race boat, it is a trawler. If one wants to go fast, this would be a poor choice of boat.

It is a "semi planing" hull and will go from an economical 7 knot hull speed to a 13 knot top speed but with greatly increased fuel burn and noise. Even cruising at 11 knots is inefficient.

 

[rwidman]

I had found that thread before. Thanks. I haven't seen anything about performance. The reason I'm curious is I spoke to a broker who said a Camano with the Yanmar probably tops out at 12 kts which is lower than what I believe Camano's can usually top out at. I figure he's mistaken but want to make sure.

When I first bought mine, I found WOT to be 13 knots (GPS). That's with the Volvo TAMD41P.

If you are looking for a fast boat, a trawler is not your best choice. If you want a similar bot that goes fast, look into a Cutwater. It is pretty much a trawler on a fast hull.

All the Camano Trolls up until about 2003 had Volvo engines. I don't know if they switched to Yanmar after that or if it was an option, but production ceased a couple years after that so basically a Camano Troll with a Yanmar engine is going to be a newer one and a Volvo engine will be an older model.

As for Volvo vs. Yanmar, people on the Internet love to bash Volvo, but most of them have no idea what they are talking about. My Volvo has over 5K hours on it and is running perfectly.

 

[TheDory]

We're not looking for a fast boat. We currently have a C-Dory 22 and enjoy cruising 10-12. I anticipate we'd be comfortable cruising at 7-8 on the Camano but like the option to push it a bit if we're trying to make it somewhere.

I understand it's not wise to run at WOT so what would you consider a safe, fast cruising speed? Was David's experience at 12 kts about right? You say that's WOT for you.

 

[rslifkin]

As for Volvo vs. Yanmar, people on the Internet love to bash Volvo, but most of them have no idea what they are talking about. My Volvo has over 5K hours on it and is running perfectly.

Most of the Volvo complaints I hear (both in person and online) aren't about reliability or durability, but about parts cost and availability. And in some areas, a lack of service techs or parts sources within a several hour drive.

 

[Blissboat]

Most of the Volvo complaints I hear (both in person and online) aren't about reliability or durability, but about parts cost and availability. And in some areas, a lack of service techs or parts sources within a several hour drive.

Ditto, although an engine for which you may have trouble getting parts and service is unreliable, by my definition.

 

[TheDory]

I've read all the online bashing of Volvo's and have determined I wouldn't skip a Camano just because it has a Volvo. I guess what I'm really asking here is, are there any reasons I should pass on a Camano with a Yanmar in favor of one with a Volvo? Again, assuming all other conditions are basically equal (although the Yanmar will be newer.)

 

[rwidman]

Ditto, although an engine for which you may have trouble getting parts and service is unreliable, by my definition.

Perhaps, but you are believing the online BS about Volvo. I have not ben unable to find parts for my engine. I can buy them at my local dealer or I can buy them online.

Some of the people complaining about getting parts for Volvo engines are talking about a 40 year old engine. Keep that in mind when reading their BS.

 

[rwidman]

We're not looking for a fast boat. We currently have a C-Dory 22 and enjoy cruising 10-12. I anticipate we'd be comfortable cruising at 7-8 on the Camano but like the option to push it a bit if we're trying to make it somewhere.

I understand it's not wise to run at WOT so what would you consider a safe, fast cruising speed? Was David's experience at 12 kts about right? You say that's WOT for you.

My experience is that if you don't care about the extra fuel used (and it's significant), 11 knots is enough under the WOT speed (going by Volvo's recommendation of 400 RPM under WOT as a maximum cruising speed).

However, at this speed, the extra noise of the engine and the boat slicing through the water makes the ride noisy and not as comfortable as at 7 knots.

 

[TheDory]

I'm googling this right now but thought I'd just ask...at 11kts I assume you're at 3600 rpms? What's the fuel economy?

 

[rwidman]

I'm googling this right now but thought I'd just ask...at 11kts I assume you're at 3600 rpms? What's the fuel economy?

Probably 3500 RPM. (3900 - 400).

I only made one 70 mile trip at that speed and back (140 miles total) so I don't have accurate figures but I think the fuel burn was about 6 GPH. So that is three times the fuel burn for less than double the speed.

As I mentioned, if you want to go fast, I would look at a different boat. The only time I even approach that speed (now that I am wiser) is if I'm trying to catch a bridge opening to avoid waiting an half hour or more.

 

[TheDory]

Found this on the Pacific Camano Owner's Forum:

I realize my earlier post has a typo in it. Fuel curves for Latitude Hull 149 show about 1.8 gph at7knots.
8 kts. 2.8 gph
9 kts 4.8
10.2 kts 6gph
11 kts 6.3 gph
12 kts 7.8 gph
14 kts 9.2 gph

It should be noted that the above numbers came from reading a graph rather than a table, so they may be off a bit. At 1600 rpm fuel burn is about 1 gph with a speed of about 6 knots.

 

[Blissboat]

Perhaps, but you are believing the online BS about Volvo.

With due respect, and not to challenge your experience, which has apparently been good. But, I decline to accept your characterization that I am uncritically accepting "online BS." Three boaters who I knew personally (and whose boats I also knew well) had Volvo Penta propulsion - two were singles (one gas, one diesel), and one was a twin diesel in a commercial application. All three guys at various times and pretty regularly became purple-faced with rage at their downtime waiting for parts and / or for a Volvo service tech to get around to them. All engines were less than two years old. I watched and listened to all this happen, and my further observation is that it squares with about 90% of the secondhand word-of-mouth wisdom shared over the years along the waterfront, at least here in the American Southeast.

Boaters are often opinionated and prone to unforgiving judgement - I get that. But, learning from others who have demonstrated their credibility is how I accumulated at least some of what boating knowledge I possess. I think that's true for most experienced boaters. It is not my practice to be guided by online chatter, which in any case didn't even exist for the first forty+ years of my boating education.

Now I must admit that I don't get why Volvo's marine engines have gained such a troubled reputation when I see Volvo diesels powering over-the-road trucks all up and down America's Interstate Highway System. Apparently fleet truck buyers are satisfied with them. I've also owned three Volvo automobiles that I was pretty satisfied with.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Most of the Volvo complaints I hear (both in person and online) aren't about reliability or durability, but about parts cost and availability. And in some areas, a lack of service techs or parts sources within a several hour drive.

One does not generally need to worry about the latter if one has the former.

 

[Nomad Willy]

riwidman wrote;
“ It is a "semi planing" hull and will go from an economical 7 knot hull speed to a 13 knot top speed”

I’ve read they go 20 knots w the 200hp Volvo. If that’s a fact then I’m think’in the Troll is a planing hull. And if the 20 knots w 200hp is fact then an 18 knot cruise w 260hp should be in the bag.

 

[Nomad Willy]

The Dory,
I repowered my boat with a Mitsubishi and there are probably fewer than 5 on TF running that brand. I haven’t bought any engine parts for my Mitsubishi engine over a 15 year period. If I had bought a Volvo I could probably say the same.

I’d look at Trolls equally w Volvo or Yanmar power unless you live in a Volvo lacking dealer area.

 

[Frosty]

The only "knock" I can think of in choosing the Yanmar 4LHA over the Volvo TAMD41P is that it will probably be less smooth at idle or low cruising speeds. The Yanmar is a 4-cylinder whereas the Volvo is a 6 cylinder. Same horsepower (200) so 6 is just going to be smoother, especially at low speeds (and I'm a Yanmar fan in general, so it's not that I don't like the 4LHA).

Then, specific to the Camano, the Yanmar is less common and only in the newer boats, so a bit less selection of boats and they will tend to be higher priced (just because they are newer).

Seems that up to around 2002 it was all the TAMD (minus a few very early boats). 2003-ish you could have either. Then I think the TAMD ceased to be available and so then you had the Yanmar for a while, and then in the newest ones they settled into the Volvo D4.

For all the Volvo talk, I have never read of anyone with the TAMD in a Camano who didn't like it and think it was well-suited to the boat. I also gather that the TAMD is one of Volvo's "good, tried and true" engines (for values of every engine maker has some models that are just better than others).

Another minor plus to the Volvo is that it's in the vast majority of Camanos, so you have that network of other Camanoans to discuss with. From what I read, parts for the TAMD41P seem to be easily available, and for a couple of the pricier ones, there are now good alternatives (transmission cooler was one, IIRC).

I guess if I boated in an area where there were simply NO Volvo mechanics (and the same would go for any brand engine), I would shy away. If you have a couple nearby, then that seems to take that worry away.

Comparing specific engine models (not just brands in general), both the TAMD41P and the 4LHA seem to be good engines, IMO.

 

[rwidman]

riwidman wrote;
“ It is a "semi planing" hull and will go from an economical 7 knot hull speed to a 13 knot top speed”

I’ve read they go 20 knots w the 200hp Volvo. If that’s a fact then I’m think’in the Troll is a planing hull. And if the 20 knots w 200hp is fact then an 18 knot cruise w 260hp should be in the bag.

Did you read that on the Internet? Because if it's on the Internet it must be true, right?

I don't know why another identical boat would be able to make 20 knots with the same boat and engine as mine. I got 13 knots at WOT shortly after I bought the boat and after the PO had removed his stuff and before I (and my wife) added ours. And yes, this was GPS speed at slack current.

And as I have already posted a couple of times, if your desire is to go fast, this would not be the ideal boat for you.

 

[Seevee]

I've read all the online bashing of Volvo's and have determined I wouldn't skip a Camano just because it has a Volvo. I guess what I'm really asking here is, are there any reasons I should pass on a Camano with a Yanmar in favor of one with a Volvo? Again, assuming all other conditions are basically equal (although the Yanmar will be newer.)

TheDory,
Well... many of us would NOT own a Volvo in ANY boat, including the Camano. There's a real reason that folks speak poorly about the Volvos, it's most likely true, especially when overwhelmingly they have a poor reputation.



I've owned three Volvos.... one was old, and the others were fairly new. And they weren't horrible engines. But the parts can be unatainium, and horribly expensive. And the whole Volvo philosophy is "we know everything, the customer is an idiot". Service and support is really louse, even if you have a dealer in the area.


Before I just wrote Volvos off, I had a long chat with their local distributor, and they basically said, we can't give you the support info, or computer programs, or tech support because you're too dumb to figure it out.



All the other motor manufacturers, Yanmar, Cummins, Cat, Merc are the opposite and the best of help.



So, there's a really good reason NOT to own a Volvo... unless one just likes to be "lucky".

 

[Frosty]

I’ve read they go 20 knots w the 200hp Volvo. If that’s a fact then I’m think’in the Troll is a planing hull. And if the 20 knots w 200hp is fact then an 18 knot cruise w 260hp should be in the bag.

From all of my research, I'd say 14 knots is a typical best speed. Maybe a couple of the last ones with the Volvo D4225, trim tabs, and light boat would hit 15-16? Maybe.

Not that most people are planning to cruise at top speed, but still it's worth having the true numbers.

*******
I'm no naval architect, but I wouldn't call the Camano a planing hull. More semi-displacement? They did some nifty things with the hull ("Keelform" hull shape) but I believe the intention there was to eliminate the "no zone" that you'd usually have between 8 and about 12 knots. The idea was that you could pretty much go at any speed between 0-12+ knots without a horrible dead zone of a huge wake, nose pointed to the sky, etc.

It looks like they were successful in that there doesn't seem to be a complete "don't go this speed" zone. OTOH, they still did not defy physics so MPG still suffers disproportionately at the faster speeds. You just don't have as much of a dead zone between say 8 knots and 12 knots.

Yet, I don't believe you ever "break free" and get up on top like you do on a true planing hull at higher speeds.

rwidman: I haven't owned a Camano and you have. Does this sound about right to you?

 

[rwidman]

From all of my research, I'd say 14 knots is a typical best speed. Maybe a couple of the last ones with the Volvo D4225, trim tabs, and light boat would hit 15-16? Maybe.

Not that most people are planning to cruise at top speed, but still it's worth having the true numbers.

*******
I'm no naval architect, but I wouldn't call the Camano a planing hull. More semi-displacement? They did some nifty things with the hull ("Keelform" hull shape) but I believe the intention there was to eliminate the "no zone" that you'd usually have between 8 and about 12 knots. The idea was that you could pretty much go at any speed between 0-12+ knots without a horrible dead zone of a huge wake, nose pointed to the sky, etc.

It looks like they were successful in that there doesn't seem to be a complete "don't go this speed" zone. OTOH, they still did not defy physics so MPG still suffers disproportionately at the faster speeds. You just don't have as much of a dead zone between say 8 knots and 12 knots.

Yet, I don't believe you ever "break free" and get up on top like you do on a true planing hull at higher speeds.

rwidman: I haven't owned a Camano and you have. Does this sound about right to you?

Yes it sounds about right. I had a smaller boat for a while that would get on plane and there was a definite speed that you could not travel easily between hull speed and planing speed.

The Camano Troll will go smoothly from hull speed to it's top speed but doesn't get on plane. Some folks have added trim tabs but I just treat mine as a displacement boat unless I'm trying to make a bridge opening. Even then, I usually won't go over eight and a half knots or so.

 

[TheDory]

Thank everyone for your input. I put an offer in today on a 2006. Fingers crossed the surveys go well.

 

[Nomad Willy]

TD,
Are you going to leave us hang'in?
What engine does this boat have?

 

[TheDory]

Ha, sorry! It has a Yanmar but I promise that wasn't the sole deciding factor.