Ethernet connection for engine management

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Chaps - I have a new build underway specified for 2 by John Deere 4045 AFM85 Diesel engines. The Helm instrumentation/MFD uses Ethernet for data transmission. Is there any way to access an Ethernet output from the John Deere Engine Management System or do I need a Gateway from the J1939 data stream to Ethernet (Modbus TCP)? If I have any acronyms squiffy it's because I don't fully understand this stuff yet. Bring back cables and steam.

Thanks in advance.
Chris

 

[O C Diver]

I'm in the process of converting my can bus signal from my John Deere 4045TFM75 to NEMA 2000. From there I'm using a Rose Point NEMO gateway to convert all the data on my NEMA 2000 to my PC for Coastal Explorer software. You could take the NEMO gateway and feed it to a router, but I only need it for Coastal Explorer.

I chose the Maretron gateway and am waiting for a gateway from NEMA 2000 to USB to set up the Maretron gateway. Using the Maretron J2K100 gateway will require either having one of there displays or using their USB100 gateway to set up the software.

Ted

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

Mr Diver,

thank you very much for this quick reply. I think I went down a rabbit hole trying to be clever when the answer was right in front of me. We have specified other Maretron equipment and will be designing the NMEA backbone using N2K builder. Connecting to the NMEA 2000 instead of ETHERNET backbone will also work and there is my answer, pre mapped! Data speed is a little slower but for engine info that does not matter as it is faster than my grey matter anyhow. Marvelous.

On a related note I have not yet laid hands on the engines. From an internet search I think the John Deere J1939 is a 4 wire connection CAN High, Low, Ground and Power. For future reference, can you tell me where we can access this on the Engine Control Unit?

Regards from South Carolina. Chris

 

[O C Diver]

Hi Chris,

There is a link on Maretron's website for a document that covers the likely wiring. Their site is down at the moment, so I'll post it later.

On my engine which is 2013 and tier 2, I did my connection behind the gauge panel. The can bus harness was 3 wires, grey, yellow, and green. Grey is ground. Yellow is Can Low. Green is Can High.

You want to ignore the wiring diagram on the plastic package and decal on the plug for the connector that comes with the J2K100. That information is if you are using it on a NEMA 2000 cable. The correct wiring diagram is in the instruction booklet, right after the wrong diagram. Be sure you are following the correct diagram!

Here is another link to a member on the forum who accessed thar data from a different harness.

https://mv-adventuress.azurewebsites.net/2022/01/08/mv-telemetry-part-4-engines/

Ted

 

[Arthurc]

+1 to what OC says, I just put in a new 6068afm and also pulled the j1939 from behind the gauge panel. Install was easy once I knew the right wires. I’d recommend N2KView if it’s not already in your plan, I find the ability to trend egt, rpm, load, fuel/oil stats, etc really helpful to where I now know what each should be for a given rpm and can watch for small changes over time. Would be even more interesting with twins.
I had an unfortunate incident with a closed return fuel line that toasted a 2 year old 6068sfm, had I had this system setup then I likely would have caught it before the meltdown.
AC

 

[Arthurc]

Also for what it’s worth I’d avoid the Nemo device unless you are set on coastal explorer. Go with an ip100 to get the data into the network, it makes config of Maretron stuff super easy and N2KAnalyzer is really helpful if you have a complex n2k network.
I started with the nemo but caught it transmitting odd stuff on my n2k network and not fully respecting priority, my nemo now lives in a drawer.
For getting 0183 (which nemo also supports) I now use shipmodul without issues.
AC

 

[O C Diver]

Also for what it’s worth I’d avoid the Nemo device unless you are set on coastal explorer. Go with an ip100 to get the data into the network, it makes config of Maretron stuff super easy and N2KAnalyzer is really helpful if you have a complex n2k network.
I started with the nemo but caught it transmitting odd stuff on my n2k network and not fully respecting priority, my nemo now lives in a drawer.
For getting 0183 (which nemo also supports) I now use shipmodul without issues.
AC

I had a similar problem with the Nemo. It was confusing other displays on the network with regard to information from original data sources (GPS receiver, wind speed and direction indicator, etc). Tech support from Rose Point synced with my PC and corrected the setting.

Ted

 

[Arthurc]

Ahh that’s good to know, I had a very early version of the nemo. Do you remember what the setting was?

 

[O C Diver]

Ahh that’s good to know, I had a very early version of the nemo. Do you remember what the setting was?

Sorry, no I don't.

Tech support was absolutely phenomenal. I explained the symptoms. He explained what was happening and corrected the setting. Spent about 30 minutes with him on configuration questions and setup. Every question was answered and explained in as much detail as I wanted. As an example, everything except my autopilot runs on NEMA 2000. He explained how I should configure the NEMA 0183 for the autopilot, where the parameter adjustments are, and if the communication sentences were incorrect for my unit, where the other ones are. If I have a problem with the autopilot, I'll likely let him sync with the PC to optimize the settings.

Ted

 

[Arthurc]

Glad they had such good support, it’s an excellent company, had I not gone down the Furuno/TZ rabbit hole I’d still be using coastal explorer. Makes me wonder if I should install it again on my N2KView machine just to play with..

 

[O C Diver]

Glad they had such good support, it’s an excellent company, had I not gone down the Furuno/TZ rabbit hole I’d still be using coastal explorer. Makes me wonder if I should install it again on my N2KView machine just to play with..

I have some legacy equipment from Garmin that I can no longer get updated map software for. Not interested in $20K or $30k worth of new hardware to solve a map software issue. While I haven't cruised with Coastal Explorer yet, I like not being tied to one manufacturer's mapping. Wished I had switched to Coastal Explorer 6 years. Lot to be said for a software company whose business isn't 99% hardware sales.

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

On my engine which is 2013 and tier 2, I did my connection behind the gauge panel. The can bus harness was 3 wires, grey, yellow, and green. Grey is ground. Yellow is Can Low. Green is Can High.

That's very odd, and makes me wonder if CAN hi and lo weren't reversed on the J2K100 side? It's pretty universal that the "warmer" color is CAN Hi and the "cooler" color is CAN Lo, so yellow Hi and green Lo. And that's how it has been on the Deere's I've worked on so far. But obviously yours worked when reversed so something it different. I'd be interested if others find the same thing, and pretty soon I'll be hooking up my JD 4045 and will have another try at it myself.

 

[Arthurc]

I’ll look when I’m up at the boat this week. I’m pretty sure TwistedTree helped me sort out my wiring 2 years ago so it’s likely he is right

 

[O C Diver]

That's very odd, and makes me wonder if CAN hi and lo weren't reversed on the J2K100 side? It's pretty universal that the "warmer" color is CAN Hi and the "cooler" color is CAN Lo, so yellow Hi and green Lo. And that's how it has been on the Deere's I've worked on so far. But obviously yours worked when reversed so something it different. I'd be interested if others find the same thing, and pretty soon I'll be hooking up my JD 4045 and will have another try at it myself.

Mine isn't working yet. Waiting for a lowner USB100 from a TF member to configure my J2K100. My recollection from the Maretron document was that on Deere, Green was High. Unfortunately Maretron looks to be updating their website, so no availability to the specific document.

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

Also for what it’s worth I’d avoid the Nemo device unless you are set on coastal explorer. Go with an ip100 to get the data into the network, it makes config of Maretron stuff super easy and N2KAnalyzer is really helpful if you have a complex n2k network.
I started with the nemo but caught it transmitting odd stuff on my n2k network and not fully respecting priority, my nemo now lives in a drawer.
For getting 0183 (which nemo also supports) I now use shipmodul without issues.
AC

I think these are really different devices for different purposes.


For Maretron, I agree that the IPG100 is the preferred device, and much better than the USB100 for anything beyond single use programming of a system config. With the IPG100, any device on the same ethernet (or wifi) network can access the N2K data, including multiple devices at the same time. So you can have N2KView and N2K Analyze running at the same time, plus one or more mobile N2KView devices, all using the same IPG100. And the IPG100 has a dedicated USB jack for your maretron license key, making it centrally available.


The down side is that


1) it's more expensive than a USB100, so if all you need to do is run N2KAnalyze to program or configure a device, it's not much worth the extra $$ for an IPG100.


2) It's completely proprietary on the ethernet side, and only works with Maretron applications.


Nemo, on the other hand is as open as it can be, considering the lack of standards for N2K on ethernet. Its N2K over IP is open, though not an official standard, and others like TZ can use it along with Coastal Explorer. It's also capable of broadcasting NMEA 0183 over IP in a defacto standard way that is usable by all forms of tablet apps and various PS apps. This is the same as a variety of other products do. But NEMO has way more capability and control over selecting what data gets set via 0183 over IP. Plus if course it has several NMEA 0183 ports who's data can be merged with N2K is a variety of ways, or just repeated as 0183 over IP. It's really a multi-purpose data communications hub for boat data. But of course it doesn't work with Maretron because Maretron is proprietary.


So different tools for doing much the same thing with different products. Welcome to N2K.

 

[twistedtree]

The attached manual excerpt should help. I recall someone intercepting the CAN bus at the C11 Diagnostic connector, and it can alternately be grabbed from C10 which is just the CAN bus and nominally where the engine-end terminator is installed. From the diagram it's pretty clear that Yellow is CAN Hi and Green is CAN Lo. Perhaps this is part of the problem getting the J2K100 working, or perhaps the Hi and Lo signals are reversed on the J2K100 connection end, requiring a similar reversal on the Deere end. It's always tricky looking at a connector diagram and being certain whether you are looking at the male or female plug, and further whether you are looking at the pin side or the wire side of the connector. Misunderstanding any of these will reverse connections, and many drawings are not at all clear what they are showing.


I think the preferred place to grab the CAN bus is the three-pin CAN connector. You could cut and splice the wires, or ideally make up a breakout cable using Deutsch connectors. In general I think it's good to leave the Diagnostic connector clear for technician use.


BTW, the three pin Deutsch connector carrying the CAN bus reappears at all the display/control panels, and ultimately should have a second terminator plugged in at the far end. So if it's more convenient to intercept the CAN bus at the control panel, that's easy to do, and it's the same three pin triangular connector.

 

[O C Diver]

The attached manual excerpt should help. I recall someone intercepting the CAN bus at the C11 Diagnostic connector, and it can alternately be grabbed from C10 which is just the CAN bus and nominally where the engine-end terminator is installed. From the diagram it's pretty clear that Yellow is CAN Hi and Green is CAN Lo. Perhaps this is part of the problem getting the J2K100 working, or perhaps the Hi and Lo signals are reversed on the J2K100 connection end, requiring a similar reversal on the Deere end. It's always tricky looking at a connector diagram and being certain whether you are looking at the male or female plug, and further whether you are looking at the pin side or the wire side of the connector. Misunderstanding any of these will reverse connections, and many drawings are not at all clear what they are showing.


I think the preferred place to grab the CAN bus is the three-pin CAN connector. You could cut and splice the wires, or ideally make up a breakout cable using Deutsch connectors. In general I think it's good to leave the Diagnostic connector clear for technician use.


BTW, the three pin Deutsch connector carrying the CAN bus reappears at all the display/control panels, and ultimately should have a second terminator plugged in at the far end. So if it's more convenient to intercept the CAN bus at the control panel, that's easy to do, and it's the same three pin triangular connector.

Hmmm....

From Maretron's documentation:
Green is H.
Yellow is L.



https://www.maretron.com/support/knowledgebase/phpkbv7/article.php?id=563

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

Hmmm....

From Maretron's documentation:
Green is H.
Yellow is L.

View attachment 125960

https://www.maretron.com/support/knowledgebase/phpkbv7/article.php?id=563

Ted

Interesting. In this case I'd trust the Deere documentation over Maretron's. Plus I've built two of them according to Deere and they both worked.


Here's another document from Murphy that agrees with Deere.

 

[Arthurc]

I’ll take a pict Wednesday, mines working great and I actually think I followed Maretron docs then was corrected by TwistedTree when it didn’t work

 

[O C Diver]

Interesting. In this case I'd trust the Deere documentation over Maretron's. Plus I've built two of them according to Deere and they both worked.


Here's another document from Murphy that agrees with Deere.

Hi Peter,

I owe you a big thank you!

My JD manual and wiring diagrams don't show the connectors in detail and don't specify wire color. So I based my wiring on the Maretron document. I switched the yellow and green which immediately solved the problem and didn't require programming and the USB Gateway.

Sent an email to technical support explaining the problem. Received a timely response with appreciation and a promise to address the problem. Let's hope they atleast remove the color assignment in the document.

Now if I could just recover the wasted hours trying to trouble shoot it.

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

Hi Peter,

I owe you a big thank you!

My JD manual and wiring diagrams don't show the connectors in detail and don't specify wire color. So I based my wiring on the Maretron document. I switched the yellow and green which immediately solved the problem and didn't require programming and the USB Gateway.

Sent an email to technical support explaining the problem. Received a timely response with appreciation and a promise to address the problem. Let's hope they atleast remove the color assignment in the document.

Now if I could just recover the wasted hours trying to trouble shoot it.

Ted

That's great news. So I guess at least Maretron was right about it being plug-and-play...... as long as the wiring is right. Hopefully they will fix their document.


And I hear you about all the wasted time. I increasingly am convinced that the cost of a product is not the purchase price, but the chunk of your life that it consumes to make it work. Some products will just suck the live out of you, and it's hard to pull yourself far enough away to realize it. I'm not saying this specifically about Maretron, but just as a general comment, especially with respect to technology products. While commissioning and debugging my last boat I adopted a three strike rule with any new gadget. I'll go no more than two rounds with updates, knowledge bases, tech support, or any other gymnastics to get something working. If it requires a third, then I'm done and it gets removed and returned. And that's the MOST effort I'll put into it. For something inexpensive, I often won't even give it one round. I buy products to help me, not to consume my time and effort. I'm quite good at doing that all on my own.

 

[O C Diver]

That's great news. So I guess at least Maretron was right about it being plug-and-play...... as long as the wiring is right. Hopefully they will fix their document.


And I hear you about all the wasted time. I increasingly am convinced that the cost of a product is not the purchase price, but the chunk of your life that it consumes to make it work. Some products will just suck the live out of you, and it's hard to pull yourself far enough away to realize it. I'm not saying this specifically about Maretron, but just as a general comment, especially with respect to technology products. While commissioning and debugging my last boat I adopted a three strike rule with any new gadget. I'll go no more than two rounds with updates, knowledge bases, tech support, or any other gymnastics to get something working. If it requires a third, then I'm done and it gets removed and returned. And that's the MOST effort I'll put into it. For something inexpensive, I often won't even give it one round. I buy products to help me, not to consume my time and effort. I'm quite good at doing that all on my own.

I hear you loud and clear! I'm not an early adopter buying latest model and unproven items for my boat. Everything costs more these days and needs to be plug and play, not MacGyvered.

On that same token, not interested with helpless tech service from a foreign country. Can't tell you how refreshing it was to talk to tech support from Rose Point. It was sad to realize how low my expectations had gotten based on experiences with non boating related companies in that regard.

Ted