Reality check on chain size

[Mike Negley]

Weight of the chain is important as the strength

The weight of the chain is important in keeping the catenary close to the bottom of the seabed. When the wind or current changes direction it will often pull out the anchor. Weight is what makes it reset.

 

[psneeld]

or not pull out, but pivot.......

 

[Haloo]

When you say “supersizing” our chain are you referring to length, chain size, or both?

I was referring to length of the chain and not size. The previous owner had a Lewmar windless installed along with new chain (100 feet) and line (250 feet) so with everything I have done in refit, I ignored the rode and windless since it had been just added prior to me purchasing the boat.

I notice in the Rocna chart, (see below) a chain of 3/8ths is suggested. Again to repeat myself, stick with what you have until you are anchoring in deeper water then acquire a longer chain (using your current chain for you backup anchor).

https://www.google.com/search?q=roc...BAgMECM&biw=1920&bih=937#imgrc=Rj74OUPvqYpVYM

Got it. I think we will up size the chain length this winter while we are doing other things to the boat.

 

[Haloo]

One step better than a cleating to one side is a bridle where you cleat to both sides. Also works as a snubber if your rode is chain. Set from the spring cleats it also reduces your swing arc distance.

You can make your own or buy one.

https://www.mantusmarine.com/mantus-bridle/

I already made my own! It looks really nice I must say. I’m getting the hang of this splicing thing.

I didn’t think about cleating the bridle to the bow and the spring cleat. Thanks!

 

[thataway]

I believe the size of chain is adequate, but where I would differ is with the amount of chain and line. We spent 4 six month "summers" cruising from Sequim to SW AK--so we have anchored multiple, times in most of the places you will venture--in a 46 foot motor sailor. We have also gone to be SE AK and the Broughtons in our current boat a 25' C Dory from Sequim. This latter experience is closer to what the OP has on his boat. For the larger boat we had 200 feet of 5/16 HT chain and 400' of 5/8" 3 strand--and had anchored in over 70 knots with no issues. For the smaller boat, we have chosen 300' of 1/2" 8 plait Brait--this stows in a much more compact space than the 3 strand. We then use 50' of 1/4 HT chain. All of this in what is probably a smaller chain locker than the 31' boat of the OP. For the OP, I would keep the current rode as a back up/stern rode--and go with 300' of 8 plait, and up to 100' of 1/4" HT chain.. If the extra weight is an issue, then 100' more 8 plait line, and only 30 to 50 feet of chain.

One issue in the OP's type of boat is what the extra weight will do to the boat's handling--not static positions. Bow down can make handling more difficult in heavy seas down wind/down seas, especially in an outboard deep V boat.

As to the effect of bridles: I always go with lighter line than the primary anchor rode. You want shock loading effect, (either to the line or chain). For example on my current boat I have 20 feet of 5/16" line on each side and then about 5' of the 5/16 to tie rolling hitch around either the 1/2" line or 1/4 HT chain. This gives far better shock loading effect than if I were to use 1/2" line. For one pilot house motorsailer with substantial windage and weight of 65,000#, we used 400' 7/8" primary rode with 160' of 3/8 HT chain (our storm anchor rode was 1" and 1/2" HT chain.) On that boat we used 1/2" and 5/8" snubbers. We broke the 1/2" snubberwhen we had a "knock down" gust abeam of over 50 knots, (with only a modest size mizzen sail up) just before we were going to sail away from the anchor. We anchored in winds well over 60 knots, without issues.

An aside: at about 40 knots of wind most anchor systems will lift the chain catenary to close to straight--at 50 knots sustained it is bar tight.

 

[Art]

Haloo - Photo of your boat!! Please!!!

 

[Nomad Willy]

thataway wrote;
“at about 40 knots of wind most anchor systems will lift the chain catenary to close to straight--at 50 knots sustained it is bar tight.”

Then why do you worry about catenary if when you really need some ... it’s gone.

 

[thataway]

Then why do you worry about catenary if when you really need some ... it’s gone.

I don't worry about catenary--that is why I use snubbers. But this is "one of the trade offs" with light chain.

One afternoon at a cove on Santa Cruz Island, CA. two boats were anchored side by side. We both had 3/8" HT chain and we had similar CQR anchors. My friend's boat was about 45,000#, and mine about 65,000#. He had a chain stopper to hold the chain. I had two snubbers as I have described above. A set of high swells came in. His chain snapped. Mine did not. Was there a weak link? It snapped near the deck. We were laying to about 7:1 scope. Did catenary help him?

 

[rslifkin]

Catenary serves one useful function in my mind. It provides cushioning at low loads where the snubber isn't stretching noticeably yet.

 

[Haloo]

Haloo - Photo of your boat!! Please!!!

This is the best I can do right now. The night photos were taken in Seattle last October when we were there for a Keb’ Mo’ concert, and before we had the canvas and davit installed. The purple light reflecting on our boat is from a nearby building. The photo showing the canvas is pretty lousy but it’s difficult to get a decent shot in our marina.

 

[Haloo]

Here she is on the trailer before bottom painting:

 

[Art]

Nice - Thanks!!

Bet that baby cooks at WOT!

Quite the trailer too.... What's her beam?

 

[Miz Trom]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FF

The line should be short enough to not foul the prop should it go overboard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haloo

Thank you. It’s about 30 feet from the hawseholes to the props. But the first 4 feet of bridle goes from the center cleat to the hawseholes. So I should be okay. I’ll check all the dimensions just to be on the safe side.

Haloo:

We also have a motorboat powered by two outboards, though nothing like your horsepower.

We raise our outboards when at anchor, so we have no worries about our bridle or anything else fouling the props.

Would love to see photos of your boat with the new canvas, etc etc. I googled your boat model and that is one gorgeous boat!

Cheers and Stay Safe,
Mrs. Trombley

 

[Haloo]

Nice - Thanks!!

Bet that baby cooks at WOT!

Quite the trailer too....

About 45 knots...not that we ever go that fast. Too many deadheads in Puget Sound.

 

[Haloo]

10’ beam.

 

[Haloo]

Haloo:

We also have a motorboat powered by two outboards, though nothing like your horsepower.

We raise our outboards when at anchor, so we have no worries about our bridle or anything else fouling the props.

Would love to see photos of your boat with the new canvas, etc etc. I googled your boat model and that is one gorgeous boat!

Cheers and Stay Safe,
Mrs. Trombley

I’ll get some pictures of the canvas. Rainier Industries did a great job on it.

And thank you for the kind comment about our boat. It is just the right size for us.

 

[Miz Trom]

Haloo:

In the 9 minutes in between me starting my previous post, getting briefly interrupted, and then finishing my post, you read my mind and posted photos. Thank you!

Do you keep her on the trailer when not in use? Are you planning to pull her to new and exotic locations? We've had great fun trailering our boat. And great relief, too, that we have a trailer when hurricanes enter the Gulf of Mexico.

Cheers & Stay Safe,
Mrs. Trombley

 

[Haloo]

Haloo:

In the 9 minutes in between me starting my previous post, getting briefly interrupted, and then finishing my post, you read my mind and posted photos. Thank you!

Do you keep her on the trailer when not in use? Are you planning to pull her to new and exotic locations? We've had great fun trailering our boat. And great relief, too, that we have a trailer when hurricanes enter the Gulf of Mexico.

Cheers & Stay Safe,
Mrs. Trombley

Yes! The idea is to take it to perhaps the Great Loop, Lake Powell, launch from further north in the Puget Sound or Strait of Georgia, etc... It tows amazingly well. Already we’ve towed it back and forth over two mountain passes in the Cascades. I’ve got a few pictures of it sitting on the trailer at a friend’s mountain cabin. It turned out to be the perfect place to prepare it for this boating season.

Just read your posts about your boat. You are doing things we want to do!

 

[Art]

About 45 knots...not that we ever go that fast. Too many deadheads in Puget Sound.

Hello, Haloo - You and your great boat are a fine additions to TF! Watch out for them "deadheads"!

Your type of fun-fast boat is surely one of the many good directions for mid sized "pleasure boat" designs in 2020... and beyond. O/B power sources are natural extension of marine technologic expansions... with many upsides as compared to I/B straight drive or I/B-O/B. Though, there are a couple of down sides to O/B's too. Truly, a trade-off for everything in boating!

Personally, I believe in the fun-time efficacy of fast(er) capability hard chine planing hulls for "pleasure" boating. Not to say that SD and D hull forms don't have their own firmly entrenched pleasure boating needs and positions.

Our 34' planing hull, hard chine Tollycraft's twin, direct drive I/B's provide a total of 510 HP. at WOT [which I use very seldom; and, only for testing procedures or quick escapes from bad conditions]. At WOT we reach 21 to 23 knots [depending on load aboard - 21K lbs. when fully loaded, inc. two persons]. We either cruise off plane at 6.5 knots [1 knot below calced "hull-speed" of 7.58 kots] - getting 2 nmpg. Or, we cruise on full plane at 16 to 17 knots - getting 1 nmpg.

Interesting to me [for a somewhat relative] correlation to the similar hp. / bottom sq. ft. size / considerable difference in weight / and your resulting double up speed at WOT for comparison between our boats' top speeds.

Have you a website link where I could look into your boat's manufacturer's stats?

May the many hundreds [thousands - maybe] of "Pleasure Boaters" contributing to TF stay safe and healthy with loads of water fun ahead!

Happy Pleasure-Boating Daze! - Art

 

[Art]

Yes! The idea is to take it to perhaps the Great Loop, Lake Powell, launch from further north in the Puget Sound or Strait of Georgia, etc... It tows amazingly well. Already we’ve towed it back and forth over two mountain passes in the Cascades. I’ve got a few pictures of it sitting on the trailer at a friend’s mountain cabin. It turned out to be the perfect place to prepare it for this boating season.

Just read your posts about your boat. You are doing things we want to do!

With 10' beam - while towing on road - much problem for legal-width matters?

 

[Nomad Willy]

Catenary serves one useful function in my mind. It provides cushioning at low loads where the snubber isn't stretching noticeably yet.

I think one function as well ... but a different function. As I see it the greatest benefit to some chain is that it ups the odds of getting a good set. Setting is even more important than holding power unless you use an anchor like this,

 

[Haloo]

Hello, Haloo - You and your great boat are a fine additions to TF! Watch out for them "deadheads"!

Your type of fun-fast boat is surely one of the many good directions for mid sized "pleasure boat" designs in 2020... and beyond. O/B power sources are natural extension of marine technologic expansions... with many upsides as compared to I/B straight drive or I/B-O/B. Though, there are a couple of down sides to O/B's too. Truly, a trade-off for everything in boating!

Personally, I believe in the fun-time efficacy of fast(er) capability hard chine planing hulls for "pleasure" boating. Not to say that SD and D hull forms don't have their own firmly entrenched pleasure boating needs and positions.

Our 34' planing hull, hard chine Tollycraft's twin, direct drive I/B's provide a total of 510 HP. at WOT [which I use very seldom; and, only for testing procedures or quick escapes from bad conditions]. At WOT we reach 21 to 23 knots [depending on load aboard - 21K lbs. when fully loaded, inc. two persons]. We either cruise off plane at 6.5 knots [1 knot below calced "hull-speed" of 7.58 kots] - getting 2 nmpg. Or, we cruise on full plane at 16 to 17 knots - getting 1 nmpg.

Interesting to me [for a somewhat relative] correlation to the similar hp. / bottom sq. ft. size / considerable difference in weight / and your resulting double up speed at WOT for comparison between our boats' top speeds.

Have you a website link where I could look into your boat's manufacturer's stats?

May the many hundreds [thousands - maybe] of "Pleasure Boaters" contributing to TF stay safe and healthy with loads of water fun ahead!

Happy Pleasure-Boating Daze! - Art

Kingfisher website: https://kingfisherboats.com/

Speed was never that big a deal for us. We wanted a trailerable boat that we could spend a month or more at a time on. I wanted engines that I didn’t have to crawl into a hole to maintain. We wanted just enough systems and comfort to enjoy the boat and outdoors so that there would be fewer things to fix and maintain. The aluminum hull is lighter than fiberglass which helps trailering.

The big selling point for Kingfisher boats was a nicer interior than Weldcraft or Duckworth, and we got to tour the factory in Canada. We were really impressed with their facilities, and their approach. After the tour they asked if we wanted to drive the boat on Okanogan Lake. That really sold us. They hauled the boat to the lake and we got to watch them launch and retrieve the boat. The test drive was wonderful — both my wife and I drove the boat. Getting to spend a lot of time on it really helped our decision.

I hang out on the TF because our lifestyle and goals are more similar to the folks here than elsewhere. Plus I’ve learned a ton on this website.

 

[Haloo]

With 10' beam - while towing on road - much problem for legal-width matters?

In Washington you can go on line and get a 30 day towing permit for $20. In Oregon you have to call, but the process is simple. If we head across country I’m not particularly worried about getting permits.

Towing a boat with a 10’ beam has been easy. But over the years I’ve driven a lot of large vehicles and towed lots of trailers.

 

[Art]

Kingfisher website: https://kingfisherboats.com/

TY for link. Looked through it. Not clear on draft of your boat.

Bunch of good looking rigs.

 

[Haloo]

Here is what I think I have learned from this thread so far, including some things that have been implied (in no particular order):

1. There is more than one good way to build and use an anchor rode.
2. You want to design your rode for the worst case scenario you are likely to encounter.
3. Design your rode so that the anchor can more easily set and reset.
4. Setting and resetting of the anchor are influenced by things like the design of the anchor, amount of chain in the rode, use of a swivel, the scope used given the condition of the elements.
5. Minimize potential points of failure, though depending on the rode design one boater may be more or less comfortable with additional potential points of failure. So.....
6. Start with good quality gear. But you should know that....
7. Every choice of gear used in a rode design has tradeoffs. (E.g. swivels)
8. Somewhere in your rode design you need to account for the stress on your deck hardware and windlass (if you have one).
9. Dealing with the stress on your rode handling system can include the catenary curve of the rode, stretchiness of line used, a snubber or snubbers, an anchor bridle, and the various attachment points on the boat you might use.
10. The weight of your rode system may effect the trim of your boat.
11. Inspect your rode, deck hardware, and windlass frequently.
12. If I address all of this stuff my wife and I will sleep better when at anchor.

 

[Art]

Haloo - May I ad #13...

Always purchase at least one size larger anchor [of any brand anchor you decide to use] than is recommended by the anchor manufacturer.

Sleep well!!

And, now that I think of it: As #14... always have a good spare anchor on boat as well as ample rode to accommodate.

 

[Nomad Willy]

C-monne Art,
That should depend on how the manufacturer spec’d it out. Some are two sizes too big to start with. But just say’in the manufacturers don’t know what they’re talk’in bout will likely lead you up the wrong creek.

And the size/weight should take into consideration the holding performance of the anchor. A 33# Claw on my boat would be whatI’d recommend. But a Rocna would probably do as well or better at half the weight.

Too many variables to just go up one size.
Perhaps taking a poll on TF and going down 1/2 a size would be close to right.

When most TF guys get a new high performance anchor like a Rocna and replace an old Delta or similar some effort should be made to determine if the Delta was a good size. If so going DOWN a size may be most correct.

 

[psneeld]

I am not sure anyone else thinks smaller is better...just maybe more practical if bow weight is critical.



A better anchor may permit staying on the smaller side without losing performance. But I doubt going "UP" is worse.

 

[Art]

I am not sure anyone else thinks smaller is better...just maybe more practical if bow weight is critical.



A better anchor may permit staying on the smaller side without losing performance. But I doubt going "UP" is worse.

Thanks...

Eric has his ways of thinking... but, don't we all! LOL!!

 

[Nomad Willy]

I mean “going up” with an unusual stack-up of variables like seafloor or unusually wide throat angle. In other words not loosing performance by “going up” with normal or typical variables at play.