Such a thing as an auto resetting AC breaker?

[Hawkshaw1]

I didn't read all of the posts, but I replaced my front AC unit because the breaker was bad. The old AC unit was kicking the breaker and so did the new one. The gen set, which is on a different breaker, would run the AC just fine. I replaced the breaker and it worked just fine.
The consultation prize, the AC unit was 20 years old so replacing it was to a complete waste.

Short reply: Don't assume the breaker is good, they fail too.

 

[SteveK]

Oh yes. Forgot about the battery charger.

My battery charger draws about 3-4 amps, but my inverter charger draws about 15 amps. I have been tripping the 30 amp breaker as a result when exceeding 25 total amps with a heater, HW tank kicks on. Have to manage load until batteries are charged

 

[pjtemplin]

In the residential world, I've heard that breakers essentially come in two varieties:


One type gets weaker the more it's tripped - the act of interrupting the circuit due to overload causes it to slowly start tripping at lower and lower currents. These are safe but annoying.


The other type gets "stronger" the more it's tripped - the act of interrupting the circuit due to overload causes it to slowly start tripping at higher and higher currents. These aren't exactly safe, as we want them to trip at the proper level and not allow modest true overloads to persist too long.


Given how many marine use cases end up with the breaker being "the switch", anything is possible but IMHO breakers should be used to break the circuit under short circuit or overload, and switches should be used to break the circuit when not needed.


Oh, right, one more vote to replace the breaker.

 

[psneeld]

Marine CBs are designed to be switches in addition to CBs.

They are different than residential in that respect.

Blue Seas A-series circuit breaker...

Product Description
AC / DC Single Pole Magnetic World Circuit Breaker. The World Circuit Breaker meets all American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) Standards, is UL 1077 Recognized, TUV Certified, CE marked for Europe, and CSA Certified for Canada.Delay: Standard. Features: The industry standard circuit breaker for Blue Sea Systems electrical panels. Combines switching and circuit protection into a single device. Single pole Quick Trip models are designed specifically for electronics protection. Trip Free design cannot be held "ON" during fault current condition. Circuit Breaker Type. Magnetic Hydraulic - Trip Free. Maximum Voltage. 277 Volts AC / 65 Volts DC. Rated Switch Cycles. 10,000@rated amperage and voltage

 

[Eli27]

I’m currently docked at the New Orleans municipal marina, and I’ve had lots of problems with the power here. I’ve asked the liveaboards here and they all have issues.

The main breaker on my AC panel on the boat tripps once every two weeks or so. All I have running are two fans and a large home size dehumidifier. My liveaboard dock neighbor is nice enough to come flip the breaker back on for me when I get an alert the power is off, but it’s getting old. His power also goes off quite often (breaker trips) and he doesn’t have much of a load on his little sail boat either he said. He in convinced it’s a problem with the dock power and has complained, but nothing ever happens.

Is there such a thing as a auto resetting breaker?

I have ohm tested the both of my cords as recommended by some here on the TF and they are good.
Anything else I could test?

The dehumidifier pulls less than 8 amps and I have two 30 amp cords plugged into a brand new 50 amp splitter.

View attachment 133554

If i were you i would just replace the breaker for maintenance. I know ill be told im wrong but if ever had an issue with a breaker tripping constantly and couldnt find the problem fairly quickly i would replace the breaker to start my diag.

If the problem continues i would monitor volts and amps at circuit breaker. Im lucky to have an oscilliscope i can just leave in place and record any fluctuations.

Also, depending on where the juice is coming from the problem may be in that transformer. If the voltage drops your will have an increase in needed amps,,, tripping the breaker. Thats why i would record and look at what happened during the event.


Eli

 

[jgwinks]

If i were you i would just replace the breaker for maintenance. I know ill be told im wrong but if ever had an issue with a breaker tripping constantly and couldnt find the problem fairly quickly i would replace the breaker to start my diag.

If the problem continues i would monitor volts and amps at circuit breaker. Im lucky to have an oscilliscope i can just leave in place and record any fluctuations.

Also, depending on where the juice is coming from the problem may be in that transformer. If the voltage drops your will have an increase in needed amps,,, tripping the breaker. Thats why i would record and look at what happened during the event.


Eli

A quick and free diagnosis would be too simply swap with another breaker in the panel with the same rating. Maybe just swap the wires without having to remove the breakers. If the new circuit starts tripping, you know it's the breaker and vice versa. If the new circuit is running way below the breaker rating it might not trip, but if it does you know where you're at.

 

[Eli27]

A quick and free diagnosis would be too simply swap with another breaker in the panel with the same rating. Maybe just swap the wires without having to remove the breakers. If the new circuit starts tripping, you know it's the breaker and vice versa.

Absolutely. As long its the same rating. How many extra main breakers are there in the panel? This, 'GRASSHOPPA", is the question.

 

[DrissZougari]

An AC Voltage/Current Datalogger could be useful to analyze what is causing this issue. It will at lease determine if the cause is located inside the boat or the dock itself. if it is a known dock issue (voltage Spikes), then a marine surge protector could help the issue ($$$). if the data logger detects current surges, then I should concentrate your efforts on the Dehumidifier or the battery charger.
good luck,

 

[Bob Cofer]

While there is nothing specifically available for this type of installation a couple of ideas come to mind.

The first would be utilization of an automatic transfer switch such as those used in backup generator applications, it will transfer on loss of power, under voltage, overvoltage, over frequency, under frequency and look to transfer back when it is restored. It would take some engineering to work but nothing dramatic.

The second would be utilization of a motor overload relay. We use them to monitor voltage, current and frequency. They are available in an endless combination and would be quite simple to design.

The third and simplest solution is to replace the breaker with good old fuses. Something like a FRN-R-30 Fuse. It's a 30 Amp, Class RK5, Dual-Element, Time-Delay, 250V AC/DC 30 Amp cartridge type fuse. They are current-limiting, provide overload, ground fault (depending on installation) and short-circuit protection.

Your plug serves as a means of disconnect.

 

[cardude01]

I need to order a breaker. I should have removed the existing breaker to get a model number off of it I suppose. I thought it was a 30 amp 3 pole breaker, but I can’t seem to find that.

The panel is made by Paneltronics.




Any idea what kind of breaker this is? There seems to be many choices.

 

[SteveK]

Do you by any chance have a 30 amp 240 volt hookup?

 

[SteveK]

Do you by have 30 amp 240 input line?
That is a dual line in and one neutral
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/20414567096...Da6cJbnCE2tu6YHuSZWECUgdmmPah__saAspnEALw_wcB
The new ones have one switch.

 

[cardude01]

I’m electronically challeneged, so I’m not sure what you are asking.

I have two 30 amp connections on the boat, and use two 30amp cords that go to a 50amp splitter at the dockside power pedestal.

I saw those single switch 30 amp breakers online but didnt know if the connections on the back would be the same?

 

[SteveK]

I’m electronically challeneged, so I’m not sure what you are asking.

I have two 30 amp connections on the boat, and use two 30amp cords that go to a 50amp splitter at the dockside power pedestal.

I saw those single switch 30 amp breakers online but didnt know if the connections on the back would be the same?

You have a dual line breaker usually used for 240 volts but by your description you split a 50 amp into the two 30 amp breakers. No worries, The link I sent to you should replace your breaker. The only ones they offer with the three pole breaker you show is 100 amps, not what you want.

 

[cardude01]

Got it. Thanks.

 

[Eli27]

Hmm. I doubt very much that a good 50A breaker is popping because of low voltage feeding an 8A dehumidifier and two fans. While the comments above are entirely correct that AC motors will draw more current at lower voltage, it wouldn't go up by factor 5.


I would first replace the breaker, they do go bad from time to time.
Second, I would unplug the dehumidifier and see if that solved the problem, then the fans.
Are you sure there are no other loads on the boat -- battery charger?


Jim

When the moons align,,,,, when motors turn on they need alot of amps to get them going. Once they start turning they require less amps to run. My dehumidifier spikes to 18 amps and then runs at 6.5amps. If the shore power voltage drops the amps can increase to a point where the breaker will trip.


Eli

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Odd to have a 3 pole breaker for 120v systems. [emoji848]

These mechanical breakers are pretty cheap. I third the vote to replace.

I have seen these on Sea Ray's.
They were not cheap. $150.

Mine blew and found 30vac across the common and ground at the marina. This was all the way down the slip affecting about 20 boats. The funny thing was it was only on the circuit that was sharing a single meter. The rest of the slips were on single meters by themselves aka liveaboards.

The PUD came out and found a short inside the meters.

 

[psneeld]

Looking at the back of the CB in the picture labeled 30A Shore Power 1 (another clue it is a 2 -30A cord boat)....what are the color wires attached to it? Is it Black/White/Green ? If not, what colors?

Replacements are available from Paneltronic direct ($165 but I bet they are cheaper elsewhere...just harder to find)

https://www.paneltronics.com/Electrical_Components.php?op=Circuit-Breakers&page=3

If it does have Black/White/Green wires attached and you can trace the green wire to a ground bus bar (this is where schematics or photos are crucial to internet electrical advice)...the green does not need to be through a CB but through a Galvanic Isolator if you don't have a transformer. If so, there is a possibility you could just use a 2 pole breaker which is easier to find and most likely way cheaper than $165)

 

[diver dave]

That rear side pix a page ago appears to show 2x 30 Amp breakers also tied to a voltage sense breaker, which would trip with reverse polarity L/N. Explains the $. Most installs just give you a warming lamp, but this triple appears to actually trip out with RP. I didn’t know these existed.

 

[psneeld]

That rear side pix a page ago appears to show 2x 30 Amp breakers also tied to a voltage sense breaker, which would trip with reverse polarity L/N. Explains the $. Most installs just give you a warming lamp, but this triple appears to actually trip out with RP. I didn’t know these existed.

Nice to have contributors at this level of advice!

 

[twistedtree]

That rear side pix a page ago appears to show 2x 30 Amp breakers also tied to a voltage sense breaker, which would trip with reverse polarity L/N. Explains the $. Most installs just give you a warming lamp, but this triple appears to actually trip out with RP. I didn’t know these existed.

That's a much fancier breaker, and given the cost I wouldn't be so quick to just replace it as an experiment. But I am also unsure what else to suggest as a next step.


Diver_dave, do you think crappy wiring at the marina coupled with varying dock loads might be causing the voltage sense part to trip? Maybe under some circumstances the neutral voltage gets elevated enough to look like a reverse polarity? I'm grasping as straws here.


Cardude, you said other marina tenants are having similar issues. Do they by chance have these same 3 pole breakers?

 

[diver dave]

Nice to have contributors at this level of advice!

Actually, your last post about the possibility of a green wire spurred my thought. So, the OP issue might not be overcurrent OR, a tired CB, but an actual N to GND issue. I would hate to replace that high $ CB with no improvement! Instead, I would recommend an ac DMM check on GND to N voltage.

 

[diver dave]

….


Diver_dave, do you think crappy wiring at the marina coupled with varying dock loads might be causing the voltage sense part to trip? Maybe under some circumstances the neutral voltage gets elevated enough to look like a reverse polarity? I'm grasping as straws here.


?

I am not familiar enuff with this voltage sensitive breaker pole to know its trip setting; but given enuff neutral drop, which increases with load, I am supposing it would trip. It would be good to probe across N and G, conveniently at the reverse polarity lamp connection.
A worn 30A twist lock would also be on the suspect list.
99% of 120V boats dont have this triple breaker, and would happily continue feeding power with a high N resistance feed. Its a good safety system. Its not a GFCI protection system for shock safety, but it does watch for wiring issues.

 

[cardude01]

That's a much fancier breaker, and given the cost I wouldn't be so quick to just replace it as an experiment. But I am also unsure what else to suggest as a next step.


Diver_dave, do you think crappy wiring at the marina coupled with varying dock loads might be causing the voltage sense part to trip? Maybe under some circumstances the neutral voltage gets elevated enough to look like a reverse polarity? I'm grasping as straws here.


Cardude, you said other marina tenants are having similar issues. Do they by chance have these same 3 pole breakers?

Other tenants are having the same problem, but I’m not sure what type breakers they have. Will try to find out.

 

[cardude01]

Looking at the back of the CB in the picture labeled 30A Shore Power 1 (another clue it is a 2 -30A cord boat)....what are the color wires attached to it? Is it Black/White/Green ? If not, what colors?

Replacements are available from Paneltronic direct ($165 but I bet they are cheaper elsewhere...just harder to find)

https://www.paneltronics.com/Electrical_Components.php?op=Circuit-Breakers&page=3

If it does have Black/White/Green wires attached and you can trace the green wire to a ground bus bar (this is where schematics or photos are crucial to internet electrical advice)...the green does not need to be through a CB but through a Galvanic Isolator if you don't have a transformer. If so, there is a possibility you could just use a 2 pole breaker which is easier to find and most likely way cheaper than $165)

I’m not on the boat now. I should have taken a pic of the wiring!

I do think there was a green wire connected to the breaker.

 

[twistedtree]

Other tenants are having the same problem, but I’m not sure what type breakers they have. Will try to find out.

It sounds like you need to collectively get after the marina. I'm not sure you can solve this problem on your end.


As for fancy breakers, you might check out Carling's eplex system. I think it might include remotely controllable breakers. C-Zone might have something too. But I think you would be looking at an expensive and complex system so solve this problem. I also know that ABB has remotely trippable breakers (I'm using them), and I seem to recall a motorized attachment to reset a breaker too, but I'm not sure since that's not what I was looking for.


Also, it's possible that an isolation transformer would help, depending on exactly what's happening to trip the breaker, which of course we don't know and can only guess. But that would be another expensive guess at a solution.

 

[4fun1]

Is your generator breaker the same? You may be able to swap them to help diagnose the problem.

 

[cardude01]

Gen breaker is different

 

[SteveK]

The main breaker on my AC panel on the boat tripps once every two weeks or so. All I have running are two fans and a large home size dehumidifier.

Taking the OP literally, It is always the main breaker that trips. That would rule out the two fans and dehumidifier as I would expect a fault there would trip the breaker they are on (15 amp?) before the main.
The only other suspect is something else not identified turning on and overloading the main breaker. Such as a battery charger, perhaps an inverter charger. But you have assured us that is not happening.

You have a 50 amp split to two 30 amp, so each 30 amp leg is from the same hot/neutral feed.
The pedestal breaker is not tripping so we can rule out the new fangled breakers there.

Back to the main breaker. Turn off all breakers not in use for the two fans and dehumidifier, leaving nothing else able to ask for power. Does it still trip?

Next suggestion is not for everyone. It it were me, and if you saw my thread about the smartplug, you will understand I would experiment with yours by bypassing the main breaker and feeding the fans and dehum directly. If you do, please unplug the shore cable while working inside the panel.

If two weeks go by without a trip, the main breaker is the fault. If the 15 amp house breaker trip it is the marina power supply.

 

[cardude01]

Taking the OP literally, It is always the main breaker that trips. That would rule out the two fans and dehumidifier as I would expect a fault there would trip the breaker they are on (15 amp?) before the main.
The only other suspect is something else not identified turning on and overloading the main breaker. Such as a battery charger, perhaps an inverter charger. But you have assured us that is not happening.

You have a 50 amp split to two 30 amp, so each 30 amp leg is from the same hot/neutral feed.
The pedestal breaker is not tripping so we can rule out the new fangled breakers there.

Back to the main breaker. Turn off all breakers not in use for the two fans and dehumidifier, leaving nothing else able to ask for power. Does it still trip?

Next suggestion is not for everyone. It it were me, and if you saw my thread about the smartplug, you will understand I would experiment with yours by bypassing the main breaker and feeding the fans and dehum directly. If you do, please unplug the shore cable while working inside the panel.

If two weeks go by without a trip, the main breaker is the fault. If the 15 amp house breaker trip it is the marina power supply.

Yeah it seems strange that the fans and dehumidifier don’t trip the individual small breakers but trip the main one instead. Does that tell you it’s not a load problem from the fans and dehumidifier, but some other problem ?

I DO have the battery charger running so I suppose it could be the problem, but it has its own separate breaker and it’s never popped it.

I recently replaced my old galvanic isolator with a new Promainer failsafe 60amp unit. Could that be part of the problem?