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Old 07-24-2020, 06:48 PM   #21
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Need hot water!

FWIW, I donít think you need to worry about pre-heating the engine via the Espar. Cold weather starts shouldnít be a problem in the PNW when the boat is sitting the water. Now, it may be that if all the inputs are going into the same heat exchanger, then it isnít any additional valuing or piping involved. However, I donít engine pre-heating would be worth any additional cost or complication for you.

Having said that, I do have an electric oil pan heater on the boat that stays on 24/7 when the boat is on shore power. I donít need any pre-heating, but it does keep the engine warm enough in the winter to keep the ER and engine dry.
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Old 07-26-2020, 05:19 AM   #22
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There are also solar water heaters , that are a simple insulated box on deck , black inside with copper tubing to collect the heat.
A tiny DC circ pump moves the heat from collector to HW tank.A replacement double thermo pane glass is used for the glass.

These are large to fit on a boat , but could work for you.
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Old 07-26-2020, 11:54 AM   #23
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These guys seem to make a nice product. Circ pump is driven by small pv panel, so no sun no circ, makes it self monitoring
https://heliatos-solar.myshopify.com...er-heating-kit


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Originally Posted by FF View Post
There are also solar water heaters , that are a simple insulated box on deck , black inside with copper tubing to collect the heat.
A tiny DC circ pump moves the heat from collector to HW tank.A replacement double thermo pane glass is used for the glass.

These are large to fit on a boat , but could work for you.
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Old 07-26-2020, 12:11 PM   #24
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I'd thought about using a manifold as your guy suggested but on this small a boat it seems overkill, just have one loop with everything in it. As far as pre-heating engine coolant with the Espar goes I'd be leery of having the engine coolant also being your heater coolant, you're just adding a whole bunch of failure points to the engine coolant system. The other way to do it is with another heat exchanger, so engine coolant/heater coolant, but that seems complicated. I guess it depends on how badly you think you need to pre-heat your engine coolant. I live in the PNW and my engine starts immediately no matter the outside temp so it's not important to me. IMO this using the heater to keep your engine coolant warm idea is carried over from the trucking industry and a number of installers are recommending it without really analyzing the need.

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So I have done some more inquiring, using the tips provided by the forum group here. We had a marine tech stop by our boat to do an assessment as we are about an 18 hour drive away from the boat.
His assessment came back with a solution very similar to Sean's, only he suggested using a stainless manifold with valves to control;
- heating water with main engine
- heating cabin with main engine
- pre-heating the engine coolant with Espar
- heating the hot water tank with the Espar
- he also feels moving the hot water tank from the lazarette into the engine room would be a good idea for heat retention

This system seems more elaborate than initially plan, however he's done this before and feels its the best way to go.
Here are my possible concerns;
- valves would need to be in an accessible area
- engine coolant would mix with Espar heater coolant. This alone shouldn't be an issue but then there would be more failure points for engine coolant.

Thoughts from the group?

Thanks again to everyone who has given their opinions thus far

Brent
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:05 PM   #25
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Hot Water

My advice to you is to get a Paloma hot water heater
You will have unlimited hot water (as long as you have water in your tank)
They are very inexpensive and give you hot water on demand.We had a PT38
20 years ago (current owner is a member of this forum) and had the paloma
mounted on the outside of the back cabin bulkhead
As soon as you turn on hot water it heats it up and away you go.
Best thing since sliced bread
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:50 PM   #26
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Go with the recirculating pump, and if you can insulate the hot water line. This system has a secondary benefit of saving water as hot water is nearly instantaneous at the tap in a circulating hot water system. If you have heat to spare in this loop you can also add a heater core and fan to the loop and get extra heat in the head. I installed them in the vanities on one yacht and it was really popular with the owner’s family in cold climates.
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Old 07-31-2020, 04:44 PM   #27
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Maybe CA is different but my experience here is that neither your surveyor or insurance company will be happy about the Paloma.
Saying that I have a friend who had one and loved it. It would disappear when it was time for a survey then reappear.
There is a marine tankless water heater but it's expensive and its mounting requirements might be a problem for some.
https://precisiontemp.com/products/showermate-m-550/



Quote:
Originally Posted by sockeye View Post
My advice to you is to get a Paloma hot water heater
You will have unlimited hot water (as long as you have water in your tank)
They are very inexpensive and give you hot water on demand.We had a PT38
20 years ago (current owner is a member of this forum) and had the paloma
mounted on the outside of the back cabin bulkhead
As soon as you turn on hot water it heats it up and away you go.
Best thing since sliced bread
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Old 08-01-2020, 10:09 AM   #28
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Paloma

Several members in our club have the Paloma .As a condition of membership
we all go through Coast Guard safety year.I had never removed my Paloma nor had others in club.It was never an issue with insurance. Our kids have a similar unit in their cabin on Thormanby Island .They have owned it about 5years now. Insurance never raised the issue . Their cabin is about 8-9 years old and was built to live in full time by PO .

I also have a friend who has a commercial prawn boat .He has the same unit on it as we had on Roche Point

Perhaps Mike Barge will chime in .He owns our former PT38 ( Roche Point)
He visited our club last year but I never noticed if Paloma was still there.
Obviously you can't have one if insurance will not permit.
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Old 08-01-2020, 03:22 PM   #29
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Tankless propane water heater. Camplux $200. Demand heater. Just need cold water feed and propane tank. Unlimited hot water. Buy on Amazon. Hook into water line or use with included hand sprayer.
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Old 08-02-2020, 06:05 AM   #30
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The propane heaters have an operational hassle. AS water is never unlimited mot folks will use the Navy shower system.

Wet down, soap up, then rinse the soap.

Usually the water is shut off while scrubbing and only turned back on to rinse.

The hassle is when there is no water flow the water heater burner shuts down , so the start of the rinse off is with cold water.

An ancient RV unit has a 6 or 10gallon tank , works fine , has 120v element for dockside.

A more modern RV unit has a tiny tank , but internal plumbing to keep the burner on.

Simple system is a funnel and hose leading to the FW tank.

The water can be left running so the temp is fine , at the cost of a bit of propane.
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Old 08-02-2020, 07:25 AM   #31
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Most folks? I don't think so, only those with, perhaps, smallish water tanks. Many boats have large or fairly large tanks. We did the Great Loop two years ago, not one Navy shower. We did shower efficiently but not miserly.
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The propane heaters have an operational hassle. AS water is never unlimited mot folks will use the Navy shower system.

Wet down, soap up, then rinse the soap.

Usually the water is shut off while scrubbing and only turned back on to rinse.

The hassle is when there is no water flow the water heater burner shuts down , so the start of the rinse off is with cold water.

An ancient RV unit has a 6 or 10gallon tank , works fine , has 120v element for dockside.

A more modern RV unit has a tiny tank , but internal plumbing to keep the burner on.

Simple system is a funnel and hose leading to the FW tank.

The water can be left running so the temp is fine , at the cost of a bit of propane.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:51 AM   #32
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need for hot water

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Tankless propane water heater. Camplux $200. Demand heater. Just need cold water feed and propane tank. Unlimited hot water. Buy on Amazon. Hook into water line or use with included hand sprayer.

In suggesting a Paloma i was not intending to endorse just Paloma.Any tankless propane water heater is fine as long as properly installed .Never
once have i had an "operational issue" with unit as has been suggested.
When tap is turned on a little cold water (in the line between tap and unit) goes in the kettle .Rest is as hot as you want for as long as you want. Obviously if your on a boat water has a limit as does fuel .If boaters have propane stoves inside their cabin why can't they have a hot water heater outside their cabin ? A trawler is a perfect fit for a tankless propane water heater imho.
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Old 08-02-2020, 09:46 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
The propane heaters have an operational hassle. AS water is never unlimited mot folks will use the Navy Shower system.
I've done it this way since the 50s. Both wife and I are advocates. Applies to guests too. In our case it obviates the need for running a water maker.
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Old 08-02-2020, 01:37 PM   #34
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I've done it this way since the 50s. Both wife and I are advocates. Applies to guests too. In our case it obviates the need for running a water maker.

Looks great but what if there is no sun?
Original post was Anacortes which is same as Vancouver ,can be a tad chilly up here .Are you on Lake Powell ?
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Old 08-03-2020, 05:38 AM   #35
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A simple way to get a house propane water heater to give painless showers is easy.

Fit a tub/ shower selector valve in the line.

In shower you get all the hot water as desired , in the tub position the hot water is dumped back into the FW tank.

No cold spells or temperature adjustment hassles , just a bit more propane used.
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:41 AM   #36
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need for hot water

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A simple way to get a house propane water heater to give painless showers is easy.

Fit a tub/ shower selector valve in the line.

In shower you get all the hot water as desired , in the tub position the hot water is dumped back into the FW tank.

No cold spells or temperature adjustment hassles , just a bit more propane used.
That's a great idea (selector valve) but as i said it (operational issue)has never been a problem for me .What is a FW tank ?
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Old 08-07-2020, 07:28 AM   #37
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What is a FW tank ?

Fresh Water tank
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