Trawler or MotorYacht

[sunchaser]

The marketing ploy that tops all is Swift Trawler. It works though, they sell boats.

 

[Hippocampus]

It’s not so much the adhesives which when done right are quite strong but rather liners don’t permit access to the inside of the hull and create difficulties with servicing down the road.

 

[markpierce]

Hi guys,
Reading lots of posts. What makes a boat a Trawler or a MotorYacht? I would think a twin engine boat would fit the Motor Yacht definition. I think the Cheerman PT-41 is a Trawler, Bayliner calls the 3888 a MotorYacht. What say you?

I totally agree, but I'm not familiar with the mentioned vessels. If a self-contained (equipped with cooking facilites, bathroom, beds) vessel cannot exceed hull speed, it is mostly likely a trawler. Otherwise, it is a fast cruiser, or whatever.

 

[ddw36]

Ed McKnew in his power boat guides, lists "Motor Yachts & Trawlers" as one guide. I think recreational boats can be categorized as Sailing Yachts and Motor Yachts, with categories under each.



One could debate what a "yacht" is, but I won't go there. Suffice to say "yacht" means a recreational vessel of some type, sail or power. Trawlers should be subsumed under Motor Yachts as one type. A separate type could be "cabin cruisers," which would include, I think, the majority of motor yachts, which are the small to medium motor yachts.



To be a "trawler," there should be strict rules for the type to have that designation. Why? Because a true recreational trawler should emulate, as close as it can, the work boat it is based on. For starters, there should be a raised pilothouse with forward-sloping windows. This, for example, would exclude the KK42, even though it fulfills the other requirements: no forward sloping pilothouse windows.



Full displacement hull. No arguments there. You don't have a FD boat, you don't have a trawler. A mast with boom. At least look like a trawler with all the foregoing requirements. These are the main features every buyer should require if they want a trawler, rather than a cabin cruiser.


Cabin cruisers. All the other types listed as motor yachts, lacking each trawler requirement. These could have categories, as well: "pocket cruisers," "coastal cruisers," "trailerable cruisers," etc. I don't care how these boats are subdivided; every buyer/owner has his/her own requirements, but just don't think you're buying a trawler.


Yes, I'm ignorant of many other considerations; just expressing my opinion after lots of reading, as I can't boat, myself. For example, I'm not into interior configurations or number of engines as qualifiers. It's just got to emulate a trawler in its entirety to be called a trawler. If it doesn't, it isn't.

 

[ddw36]

I'll add that trawlers don't have fly bridges, as well.

 

[mvweebles]

I'll add that trawlers don't have fly bridges, as well.

Uh oh. Thought my Willard was solidly in the trawler category....

When my heirs go to sell her (or any KK42 owners), how should she be identified if not a trawler? She's a sedan..... Maybe an Express Cruiser?

 

[mvweebles]

Ed
To be a "trawler," there should be strict rules for the type to have that designation. Why? Because a true recreational trawler should emulate, as close as it can, the work boat it is based on. For starters, there should be a raised pilothouse with forward-sloping windows. This, for example, would exclude the KK42, even though it fulfills the other requirements: no forward sloping pilothouse windows.

MV Mojo, a 50-foot Robert Beebe design built in steel and designed to girdle the globe does not have reverse-angle windows. Given the provenance and capabilities, can we make an exception in this case and call her a Trawler?

BTW - I see MOJO is still for sale. I have no connection whatsoever, but she's an icon for those of us interested in passagemaking. Layout isn't for all tastes, but I can tell you from experience, that can be modified fairly reasonably.

 

[psneeld]

I have never read so many opinions of complete fluff...


No one gets to set the rules, there are no absolutes.... go live on the docks and live aboard in the boating community, work in boatyards, hang with brokers... I think many here would be surprised at there is so little confusion/discussion in those places compared to TF.


Hardly a discussion about it much of the time where I liveaboard, hard to believe it gets so much traction with a bunch of "experienced" boaters.

 

[PPandE]

No one gets to set the rules, there are no absolutes....

This statement being the one absolute. My boat, I'll call it a magic carpet if I want.

On the other hand...
If we're being snobbish about the definition, it's nets and the ability to drag them that make it a trawler. At least a sport fisher can catch fish so my Hatteras was closer to being a Trawler than a yacht with the windows on backwards. Without nets, it's just another fancy yacht pretending to be a work boat. Kinda like a plastic Lancia Stratos body on a Beetle chassis, fun to drive around town but ya ain't gonna win at Monte Carlo.

I can agree with either point of view, but nothing in between. (not that my opinion should change what you call your boat)

 

[mvweebles]

I have never read so many opinions of complete fluff...

No one gets to set the rules, there are no absolutes.... go live on the docks and live aboard in the boating community, work in boatyards, hang with brokers... I think many here would be surprised at there is so little confusion/discussion in those places compared to TF.

Hardly a discussion about it much of the time where I liveaboard, hard to believe it gets so much traction with a bunch of "experienced" boaters.

When I joined TF, I was re-entering cruising after a 10+ year hiatus. My sensibility was distinctly West Coast where, unless you already lived in the Seattle area and planned on PNW cruising, cruising includes some formidable coastal passagemaking - safe harbors are often >100 nms apart; SeaTow exists but could be over a day before you're settled if needed. Recreational boats evolved from the drafting boards of naval architects who mostly put bread on their table drawing commercial fishing boats, the provenance of my Wm Garden designed Willard 36.

And then I met TF, a mostly delightful crew with a few contrarian curmudgeons sprinkled in for good measure. Heavily skewed towards East Coast boating where coastal passagemaking is entirely optional. For example I recently responded to a sailor on CF asking about going from Astoria Oregon (Columbia River - cool little town) to Gig Harbor in Puget Sound. His best option was to make the 100 nm jaunt to Gray's Harbor; and leave in late afternoon to sail overnight to arrive Gray's Harbor around noon, in time for the fuel dock to be open. There is a narrow wx window with light winds and only 2-meter seas if he leaves this afternoon. But will be stuck in Grays Harbor for a week or more waiting for next wx. That's a lot different than anything on the East Coast.

I am anxiously awaiting the completion of my restoration project in Baja. In the meantime, TF is an endless outlet for boat-related topics, and some great information (many thanks to Simi60 who turned me on to a smoking deal on an A/C recirc pump yesterday).

San Francisco, my prior adopted home town, had decent ICW-style cruising in the Delta, a meandering system of sloughs and small towns spread out between SF Bay and Stockton/Sacramento over 100 nms up the American River system. The Godfather of Delta Cruising was a guy named Hal Schell. He published a magazine and a wonderful cruising guide chock full of history and stories about the Delta. "Delta Dawdling" was his term for cruising the Delta. The boat was unimportant - it was the act itself that was meritous. Be it a hay-barge kept afloat by empty barrels powered by an old Johnson OB or a sleek motoryacht, it was the same in his mind. I think he had it about right for the style.

Which brings me to Trawlers and Trawlering (coincidentally, the last moniker for Georgs Kolesnikov's related bulleting board, arguably the tap-root of TF). Rightly or wrongly, I viewed Trawlers as mostly synonymous with Passagemakers because that's what it takes on the West Coast. East Coast is more about Dawdling. Yea, there's a certain style to the deck house (ergo the Swift Trawler, which looks like a really snazzy boat), but for the most part, Trawlering along the East Coast can easily be a marina-to-marina affair if so desired, anchor is optional. You can spend a couple years doing the Loop and not really be too far from a fuel dock, which explains a recent thread of a guy who wanted to reduce fuel capacity in favor of water capacity. Makes perfect sense, but not a decision a passagemaker would make.

So call "trawlers" what you will, define them as you please. But I do miss the concept of passagemaking vs dawdling. Nothing against dawdling and lord knows some of my best times on a boat have been spent meandering protected waterways. But I am surprised passagemaking - even coastal passagemaking - is rarely covered. A lot of book learning and opinions on how Nordhavn is the gold-standard, and a lot of anchor-outs. But with few exceptions (Larry on a KK42 being one), few lessons' learned from serious school of hard knocks.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

In my mind, a trawler doesn't have to be truly full displacement, but more just designed to go slow. Think of something like a lot of the Mainship hulls. They're semi displacement and will exceed hull speed, but they're really designed to go slow most of the time. The ability to go faster is pretty much "throw a bunch of power at it and it'll kinda-sorta do something that resembles planing."

Very different from some of the "fast trawlers" or many motoryacht types, etc. where the thing is designed and powered to plane well and is expected to be able to cruise on plane until it's time to stop for fuel. Some boats like this have a conventional motoryacht shape, while others look like trawlers.

For the "looks like a trawler", think Sabreline 36. Looks entirely like a trawler (and a very pretty one at that) until you take it out of the water and realize it's a planing hull that looks faster than my motoryacht type. In the water, it cruises on plane at about the same speed as my boat (16 - 18 kts).

 

[mvweebles]

I'll be more blunt. For this forum, Trawler is a boat to dawdle on. That's a wide swath. Because of the demographics of people who can afford the time and expense of a boat, mostly middle aged men with wives/partners who don't want to camp anymore.

The boat and definition is meaningless. It's a platform to dawdle and dream. Huck Finn at an adult level.

 

[psneeld]

When I joined TF, I was re-entering cruising after a 10+ year hiatus. My sensibility was distinctly West Coast where, unless you already lived in the Seattle area and planned on PNW cruising, cruising includes some formidable coastal passagemaking - safe harbors are often >100 nms apart; SeaTow exists but could be over a day before you're settled if needed. Recreational boats evolved from the drafting boards of naval architects who mostly put bread on their table drawing commercial fishing boats, the provenance of my Wm Garden designed Willard 36.

And then I met TF, a mostly delightful crew with a few contrarian curmudgeons sprinkled in for good measure. Heavily skewed towards East Coast boating where coastal passagemaking is entirely optional. For example I recently responded to a sailor on CF asking about going from Astoria Oregon (Columbia River - cool little town) to Gig Harbor in Puget Sound. His best option was to make the 100 nm jaunt to Gray's Harbor; and leave in late afternoon to sail overnight to arrive Gray's Harbor around noon, in time for the fuel dock to be open. There is a narrow wx window with light winds and only 2-meter seas if he leaves this afternoon. But will be stuck in Grays Harbor for a week or more waiting for next wx. That's a lot different than anything on the East Coast.

I am anxiously awaiting the completion of my restoration project in Baja. In the meantime, TF is an endless outlet for boat-related topics, and some great information (many thanks to Simi60 who turned me on to a smoking deal on an A/C recirc pump yesterday).

San Francisco, my prior adopted home town, had decent ICW-style cruising in the Delta, a meandering system of sloughs and small towns spread out between SF Bay and Stockton/Sacramento over 100 nms up the American River system. The Godfather of Delta Cruising was a guy named Hal Schell. He published a magazine and a wonderful cruising guide chock full of history and stories about the Delta. "Delta Dawdling" was his term for cruising the Delta. The boat was unimportant - it was the act itself that was meritous. Be it a hay-barge kept afloat by empty barrels powered by an old Johnson OB or a sleek motoryacht, it was the same in his mind. I think he had it about right for the style.

Which brings me to Trawlers and Trawlering (coincidentally, the last moniker for Georgs Kolesnikov's related bulleting board, arguably the tap-root of TF). Rightly or wrongly, I viewed Trawlers as mostly synonymous with Passagemakers because that's what it takes on the West Coast. East Coast is more about Dawdling. Yea, there's a certain style to the deck house (ergo the Swift Trawler, which looks like a really snazzy boat), but for the most part, Trawlering along the East Coast can easily be a marina-to-marina affair if so desired, anchor is optional. You can spend a couple years doing the Loop and not really be too far from a fuel dock, which explains a recent thread of a guy who wanted to reduce fuel capacity in favor of water capacity. Makes perfect sense, but not a decision a passagemaker would make.

So call "trawlers" what you will, define them as you please. But I do miss the concept of passagemaking vs dawdling. Nothing against dawdling and lord knows some of my best times on a boat have been spent meandering protected waterways. But I am surprised passagemaking - even coastal passagemaking - is rarely covered. A lot of book learning and opinions on how Nordhavn is the gold-standard, and a lot of anchor-outs. But with few exceptions (Larry on a KK42 being one), few lessons' learned from serious school of hard knocks.

Peter

Just another (West Coast) opinion I see as slanted ...not wrong, not right ....but slanted.


My definition of trawler is based on decades of what they have been called by magazines, brokers, advertisers, bridge tenders, marinas, on the water pros, etc...etc... not my definition...but what I learned from boating East, Gulf, Alaska.... and dockwalking the West.


So my definition might be slanted too...but I would bet there is a larger boat population on the East and Gulf coasts than the West Coast. Serious cruising and passagemaking are the 1 percenters of boating...most gawk at anything that looks like a trawler because it something not of their world.

 

[mvweebles]

So are the 1-percenter who are cruisers locatable? Or are they out and about? There is a couple on a W40 who have many thousands of miles under their keel but rarely post on the Willard Owners site, presumably because they're out and about. Nordhavn brags about 7-million miles under the keels of their owners, but they are locked away in a sequesterd chat-room rumored to be based in Guyana with the ghost of Jim Jones as moderator. Even CruiserForum, a sail-centric site of purported cruisers (hence the name) is 99% dawdlers, albeit several appear to have roots in cruising from years ago. A lot of anchor-outs who have a lot of opinions on cruising, though I'm not sure why. Nothing wrong with anchoring-out long term, but not exactly a strong resume for passagemaking.

I've read all the books and know what they say. TF has been a great source for mechanical information such as which A/C water pump makes sense. But for advanced passagemaking topics based on experience? Cupboards are pretty bare except for restatement of published opinions. I really thought "Trawler" would include more of that. Not a big deal, I obviously enjoy the forum and am hopefully a meaningful contributor. But I think the term "Trawler" is woefully co-opted into some sort of style variation of a motoryacht. It is meant to sustain comfortable life for a middle-aged target market who prefers a slightly more classic look than a Silverton. But in the end, more similarities than differences.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Not much of what you said has anything to to with my experience of how and where Trawlers got their nickname.

Google, and keep punching in Trawler for sale and tally the obvious.

 

[mvweebles]

Not much of what you said has anything to to with my experience of how and where Trawlers got their nickname.

Google, and keep punching in Trawler for sale and tally the obvious.

Exam question from OP was difference between Trawler and Motoryacht.

For all intents, there is little difference beyond visual queues. Its a distinction without a difference. Ford vs Chevy debate. Sure, there are some differences - speed, rudder size, etc. But many, many more similarities than differences.

I was lamenting that my original impression was "Trawler" implied a more long range/passagemaker use-case. But that's clearly not a common understanding.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

I was lamenting that my original impression was "Trawler" implied a more long range/passagemaker use-case. But that's clearly not a common understanding.

Some trawlers are passagmakers, but not all. In general, most trawlers and many motoryachts fall into the middle step of self sufficient travel ability that's adequate for coastal cruising. The lower rung would be populated by express cruisers and such, where there's significantly lower self sufficiency (only enough for the easier areas of coastal cruising and with more reliance on frequent fuel stops and shore power).

 

[Hippocampus]

Peter I’m an east coast boy. Yes, there’s a choice on the east you don’t have on the west but a whole hell of a lot of east coast folks don’t live the cruising life you mention. In fact very few of my circle of friends do. For this group typical activities are Newport or Norfolk to BVI or Antigua to escape winter ( 1500-1800nm). Jumps from Mass Bay ports to Chessie as straight shots. Jumps from Lauderdale to Chessie uninterrupted. P’town to Southeast Harbor. So my group does do harbor to harbor daysails. But those only occur once you take a jump to a different cruising grounds. Looked at miles per year when we went through the log in order to sell the last boat. Put an average of 7.5k. Been told by several boat brokers in all styles of boats there’s two groups. The obsessed and the general public. Doesn’t matter if it’s a sportfish going out to the canyons when it’s bumpy or a proud owner of a Ticonderoga replica. There are such folks on any coast east/west US, Atlantic French, NZ, wherever.
So your average guy going out to Catalina or cruising the inner passage is no different than your average guy here. Just the water is colder where you are. Hell people buy dry suits here only if they want to do their own zincs and bottom maintenance in the shoulder seasons.
Personally I’m happy to see anyone out on the water for any reason. More out there the more shoreside services for me. Don’t give a rodents behind what they’re on as long it isn’t a Personal Water Craft aimed at me.
But agree a recreational trawler for me is a FD hull with trans oceanic range or at least 1500nm with 10% reserve. A passage is >5 days outside helicopter range from land (200nm offshore). The rest are transits. Those two factors define stoutness of construction, nature of infill, redundancy of mission critical systems and independence from shoreside support. It also defines your relationship with your boat. You can’t take your favorite wrench with you nor your electronics guy nor be dependent upon everything working for the time you’re out there. No credit card captains. The obsessed are of all backgrounds. Folks who welded up their own steelie, folks who wrote a check to Seaton. Folks on a 50 year old Willard. Folks on a brand spanking new 475. Doesn’t matter.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Re the OP and the two boats can anyone identify anything on either of those two boats that may or would identify them as a rec trawler.

 

[MurrayM]

Re the OP and the two boats can anyone identify anything on either of those two boats that may or would identify them as a rec trawler.

No.

 

[rslifkin]

Re the OP and the two boats can anyone identify anything on either of those two boats that may or would identify them as a rec trawler.

Visually, the Cheermen has a bit more of the typical trawler shape (including bulwarks on the deck), but they're both in the grey area where you'd have to look a bit harder at how they were equipped, hull design, and intended usage. I'd say they could probably both be called a trawler or a CPMY without being incorrect. The Bayliner has a little more of the sport fish look to it, so I'd be less likely to think "trawler" right off the bat from just a quick glance at the thing.

 

[psneeld]

Mast and boom help.

 

[mvweebles]

Make no mistake, West Coast recreational boaters rarely venture outside the Golden Gate for anything more than a challenge sali for a day. There is a BIG fear-factor attached. Drakes Bay is 30 nms north and is an open anchorage; Pillar Point (Half Moon Bay) is about 25 nms south. Very few venture this far let alone beyond. SoCal waters below Santa Barbara are much more sedate, but Pt Conception, the headland that defines SoCal from the Central Coast, is very much feared, so much so that few venture out past these areas. Sort of the first time you stand at the top of a Black Diamond ski run.

I don't mean to look-down on those people - I was with them and remember it well. This is supposed to be fun so whatever it takes to be fun, well, that's what people should do. I was just expecting more offshore discussions. I mis-read the definition of "Trawler" too. It's a motoryacht that has a few tweaks. Good strong boats, and certainly capable of serious coastal cruising, but very few use them that way which is the surprise to me.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

I think a lot of it comes back to the issue of the boats being more capable than the people that own them.

 

[AusCan]

I think recreational boats can be categorized as Sailing Yachts and Motor Yachts, with categories under each.

One could debate what a "yacht" is, but I won't go there. Suffice to say "yacht" means a recreational vessel of some type, sail or power.

To be a "trawler," there should be strict rules for the type to have that designation. Why? Because a true recreational trawler should emulate, as close as it can, the work boat it is based on. For starters, there should be a raised pilothouse with forward-sloping windows.

Full displacement hull. A mast with boom. These are the main features every buyer should require if they want a trawler, rather than a cabin cruiser.

OK, I've got the forward sloping windows, a mast and boom, and no flybridge. So maybe I'm a trawler, but I don't have the nets.

Wait - I'm not even sure if I'm a sailing yacht or a motor yacht.

I think I'll stick with calling it a boat.

 

[rsn48]

So my definition might be slanted too...but I would bet there is a larger boat population on the East and Gulf coasts than the West Coast. Serious cruising and passagemaking are the 1 percenters of boating...most gawk at anything that looks like a trawler because it something not of their world.

My experience in my marina, the marina beside mine and French Creek Marina. The one percenter who are using there boats the most are by far, and I mean really far - the fishing guys. Almost all large boats have been put to sleep for the winter.

I go to my boat roughly once a week and stay on it for about five days, if the weather is good - what it was not to long ago - I'll take it out for day runs with a buddy from our airforce base - Comox. After I finish on the net in about a half hour, I am driving the hour to go to my boat for about 4 days this time.

Part of Comox living for avid boaters and envious looker ons is watching the fisher men and women putting their boats in and taking them out. Lots of entertainment. I used to be a bit arrogant against fishers of all ilk but now I respect them. When I get up to my boat today, there might be one larger boat out, probably a sailboat. The rest will be express cruiser types and smaller out fishing.

For you local guys and gals, last week on a day outing wanting to burn off fuel, I left Comox, past Powell River and Lund and the Cumberland Islands, around West Redonda Island and down through Waddington Channel and back to Comox, about 5 1/2 hours. Want to guess how many boats were out and about? I saw one gorgeous older incredibly kept up large, I'm guessing a converted wooden tug putting along, two fishing boats (pleasure), one ferry, one sailboat and that was it.

For those that anthropomorphize boats, people like myself, I feel sorry when I see a large boat covered in canvas for protection, the poor boat sitting unused, alone and lonely, not living the life it was designed for.

Oh and why I copied and pasted the above italicized paragraph, the are far more boaters on the east coast because there are far more people on the east coast.

 

[psneeld]

Its more than just more people....probably as much...its more boatable waters for beginners to experts.

A gentlemans bet...but I bet there are almost as many marinas in the Chesapeake Bay than the entire West Coast CA to AK. Its not just because of people, it is also because of waterways.

My marina in FL......some of my friends are from Canada, Maine, Mass., PA, NJ, WA, NC, CO, TX....and the list goes on...heck there are way more people from all over than locals.

 

[MurrayM]

Just added up the populations of all the coastal 'cities' in BC north of Cape Caution (not including Haida Gwaii) and it's a whopping 16,198.

So, if you want elbow room, the central and north coasts of BC (which accounts for over 1/2 BC's coastline) is where you ought to be

*Hint* Wander off the Inside Passage once in a while.

 

[Hippocampus]

Will admit I’ve done the “ditch” Chessie to Oriental to miss the Capes and the CC Canal to miss the graveyard on the outer Cape. If you don’t have a weather window it’s foolish to do otherwise. The great thing about any form of boating is there’s always more to learn and always new places to go. There’s always ways to expand your horizons and skill set. I’m envious of PNW boaters and west coast boaters in general. For sailors San Diego to Seattle means a trip to Hawaii. Crazy. We worry about the rages in the Bahamas. You cross bars as bad as anything on the coast of Portugal as a routine thing.
There’s a reason the recreational trawler sector of boating started on the West coast. We New Englanders are late to the dance. But it’s a wonderful party wherever you are.

 

[Zoar]

A Trawler "trawls". That obvious.