Survey (mostly) complete: Issues found.

[boatpoker]

Forget the money, we all know that the estimates will be open ended and the final number will be shocking.

I just waited 6 weeks for motor mounts that were promised in three days. Before that I waited six weeks for two new fuel tanks that were promised in two weeks.

If you think that scope of work is going to be done in less than a year, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

 

[bligh]

Forget the money, we all know that the estimates will be open ended and the final number will be shocking.

I just waited 6 weeks for motor mounts that were promised in three days. Before that I waited six weeks for two new fuel tanks that were promised in two weeks.

If you think that scope of work is going to be done in less than a year, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.

Replacing 10x10 ft of plywood cored deck will take a year? I watched my dockmate replace his foredeck in 4 weekends by himself in his slip at a marina. I would hope a professional yard would perform at least as well as a weekend warrior.

 

[bligh]

The fuel tanks are fiberglass.

Your list of items that were found would lead me to walk away. Rust and fuel storage don’t go together. The roof could be just the tip of the iceberg. I am reminded of all the TV shows based on home renovations and there are always surprises, often nasty. Unless the price is really right and your desired boat checklist makes this a Unicorn that you will never find again I’d seriously reconsider or really really lower the offer. But that’s just me....

 

[boatpoker]

Replacing 10x10 ft of plywood cored deck will take a year? I watched my dockmate replace his foredeck in 4 weekends by himself in his slip at a marina. I would hope a professional yard would perform at least as well as a weekend warrior.

That's only one of the items listed.

 

[bligh]

"Your list of items that were found would lead me to walk away. Rust and fuel storage don’t go together. The roof could be just the tip of the iceberg."


Thank you. I watched two surveyors work diligently and methodically all day inspecting the boat inside and out. And I'm sure they did not uncover everything. But I cant conceive of what they missed that was the 'tip of the iceberg' . But if I am wrong I dont want to seem ignorant and am open as to what else to be mindful of.[emoji54]
And yes we will be lowering our offer.

 

[bligh]

That's only one of the items listed.

Yes. The boat has a lot of systems. The small tasks I can do myself. My mechanic can do quite a few. But a yard will have to do the stabilizer and the roof.

 

[Insequent]

I would try and take a big picture view:
- Your other thread had lots of 'wow' type comments, and I agree that CL make good boats. They've been doing it for lot longer that most boat manufacturers, back to 19th century I believe.
- Its an unusual boat in need of attending to some deferred maintenance. Yes it will get beyond what is known, cost a bit more and take a bit longer. But I can't see anything like a year in it. If you want a motorsailer finding another like it for a better price will need a lot of time and luck.
- it seems like a lot of boat for not a huge amount of money, but cost of fixing the survey findings may only reduce the selling price in part. If I were selling I would say 'a lot of that ought to have been clear to you when you made your offer'.
- I would always advise people to keep 25% of the 'boat buying budget' back for work once you own it. If you don't spend it all, its a bonus and feels good!

 

[bligh]

I would try and take a big picture view:
- Your other thread had lots of 'wow' type comments, and I agree that CL make good boats. They've been doing it for lot longer that most boat manufacturers, back to 19th century I believe.
- Its an unusual boat in need of attending to some deferred maintenance. Yes it will get beyond what is known, cost a bit more and take a bit longer. But I can't see anything like a year in it. If you want a motorsailer finding another like it for a better price will need a lot of time and luck.
- it seems like a lot of boat for not a huge amount of money, but cost of fixing the survey findings may only reduce the selling price in part. If I were selling I would say 'a lot of that ought to have been clear to you when you made your offer'.
- I would always advise people to keep 25% of the 'boat buying budget' back for work once you own it. If you don't spend it all, its a bonus and feels good!

Thank you. Some of it was known to me prior to survey through my own survey. No items were disclosed to me by the broker. I'm not sure what if any items were known to him. What I didnt note in any post is everything that did survey well. The vessel has been generally maintained and used frequently. The current owner of 2 years dumped quite a bit into the rigging and sails. Also a new LP system and new range was installed. Many systems are new since 2008.
I do have reserve funds for additional work and it is in line with your budget suggestions. But I definitely already have plans for some of that money for my own upgrades.

 

[CarlF]

That survey wouldn't scare me away - and I own a 55ft ketch motorsailer (Shannon).

It's pretty impressive that they didn't find sponginess in more places. Of all places to find it, the pilothouse roof is the least dangerous and easiest to fix. And moisture meters are notoriously inaccurate. 50% is just a random number. Does it go "squish" when step on it? It's likely been there for years. It could be there for some more years without problem - but would be good to fix at some point. At least have someone recaulk now so more water isn't leaking in.

The "overpropping" is fine. A small amount like 100rpm is nothing to worry about. And that could be caused by a tachometer that's a little off, the smallest amount of fouling on the props, or even powering into a 15 knot headwind. Overpropping is a problem when it overloads the engine causing high fuel use, black smoke and carbon buildup. I assume the boat's been running with these props for a long time? For fuel enconomy, it's better to be slightly overpropped than slightly underpropped.

The rest of the stuff is typical surveyor stuff - except maybe the inverter wiring which will be cheap to fix. And 40 degrees hotter at full load is not going to catch fire - I doubt you have enough battery to keep this load up for long. But fix it because this might be corroded wiring not just slightly undersized. Any quality inverter will shut itself off if it gets hot from too little air. Maybe rig a little computer fan blowing into the compartment. Or add some vents.

As you fortunately realize, even a well cared for 1986 boat is going to need continuous maintenance as components reach their end-of-life. I replace most hoses at the 10 years spot. They're consumables.

As to the price - this is business. The price already reflects the fact that it's not new. If that boat was new it would fetch close to $2M. Unless this is his first rodeo, the seller is expecting to make some price concessions.

I'd go back to him with a list that says Roof - $25,000 Stabilizer - $3? Misc - $2K = $30k. I expect he'll counter with $20k. Which I'd personally take for what looks like a great boat. Then yes, there will be another $100k of "surprises", improvements, and personalizations in the first 12 months. Things like new mattresses because you get a backache on the current one. Or your wife thinks the salon cushions look like a motel lobby. Most repairs will cost more than estimated because more will be found during the work - but that's the way it goes when buying a used boat. If you want a warranty - buy new.

If that's a big problem, this is too much boat for your bank account.

Recognize that your insurance company will insist on everything that's serious on the surveyor's written report getting fixed before coverage. He probably knows this and will leave a lot of minor stuff off.

 

[bligh]

It is with sadness and some relief to report to you l have cancelled my purchasing agreement for this vessel. My decision was based upon the full report of the survey that revealed multiple punch list items and a general lack of regular mechanical maintenance -which is in direct contrast to its cleanliness and sharp looks externally. The seller was willing to negotiate on the roof and accommodate its repair. But there were too many other survey items and unknowns with the vessel along with the fact that many of the 35 year old systems seemed to be at the end of their life cycle.

 

[menzies]

That's too bad. And I know it's annoying having spent the time and money to go see her and survey.

But chin up, there will be another 'round the corner.

As we say in Ireland 'what's for ye won't go past ye!"

 

[Jackhulse]

I have rejected several boats after survey revealed multiple problems, many less than all the ones you outlined. I’m sure there are more issues hidden below the surface that will be revealed once work starts. And from what you’ve found to date, $25,000 sounds very low. I would reject on the grounds of the survey, get your deposit back and find a better boat. The market is really wide open now.

Jack Hulse
New Orleans

 

[Swfla]

Too bad it didn't pass survey. A very unique and desirable setup. Thanks for keeping us in the loop as I really wish the best for fellow members. FL is likely to have a few similar yachts for sale. The trip to CA would be an amazing adventure but really too far away to be practical for most.

 

[Jimintheair3]

BTW, I am for sharing the surveys with the current owner and selling broker as support of your updated offer.

I know many on here disagree with this approach based on other threads - you paid for it and they should share the cost if they want it I believe is the argument.

But it should not only support your revised offer but also make the owner and broker aware of the issues and MAY help future prospective buyers should you not come to a final agreement to purchase.

NO, NO, NO & Double NO! Share the recommendations, not the whole Survey.
If the seller won't give survey considerations, hold out fund "with title company", have the work completed. If it cost's less, the seller get's the rest!
I have NEVER met a Surveyor that know's or will quote a price to repair something! Get a reliable yard to give you a quote!

 

[menzies]

I have NEVER met a Surveyor that know's or will quote a price to repair something! Get a reliable yard to give you a quote!

Really?

The company who did my engine surveys gave me very good estimates on the work, and got to do most of them afterwards.

 

[menzies]

NO, NO, NO & Double NO! Share the recommendations, not the whole Survey.

So go on, why not?

 

[bligh]

Well, it is after the fact, but i did initially send the survey summary to the broker to present to the owner as I wanted all the items fixed. I think the official document from the surveyor is the most effective dose of reality for the seller. Like others have said, the survey is going to follow that boat around for a while. But the reality of getting everything fixed would have amounted to well over a 6 digit number (for yards to fix) and a project I dont want to take on. Been there done that. If anyone does want a good deal on a boat and does not mind some future projects, I do know the price is extremely negotiable as the boat is in a distress sale.

 

[Comodave]

I ahve seen surveys that have estimates in general terms as to repair costs. They may or may not be accurate. But it does give the seller something to think about during negotiations.

 

[boatpoker]

So go on, why not?

Survey costs $1k + and belongs to the person who commisioned it
It is a "property" and has value.

Ya wanna copy .... pay up.

 

[menzies]

Survey costs $1k + and belongs to the person who commisioned it
It is a "property" and has value.

Ya wanna copy .... pay up.

Actually it has zero value.

There are two scenarios - you buy the boat or you don't buy the boat.

If you buy the boat the survey is worthless to anyone else but you as the boat is no longer on the market.

If you walk the survey has absolutely no more value to you. So no loss to you if someone else has it.

 

[boatpoker]

Actually it has zero value.
.

If it has no value, why would the seller and broker want a copy ?

 

[bligh]

Survey costs $1k + and belongs to the person who commisioned it

It is a "property" and has value.



Ya wanna copy .... pay up.

Nobody ‘wanted’ a copy. I sent the ‘summary’ over to the broker. By being transparent with the broker about the problems found in the survey the broker is pressured to work harder to convince the seller to negotiate. Down the road if/when my transaction falls through and the broker has to start over, he is likely not going to withhold from prospective buyers all the problems found in my survey. He might even be legally bound to disclose them but I’m not a broker so I don’t know really. If not legally bound he would be morally bound to.

 

[menzies]

If it has no value, why would the seller and broker want a copy ?

Nobody said they wanted one. I said I gave mine to them as part of the post survey negotiations, and don't see any downside to others doing so.

You either buy the boat and it's worthless to anyone but you. Or you walk and don't care who has it.

 

[Caphenning]

Here’s the thing about prop pitch, speed, and load. You’re not going to go faster throwing more fuel at it, 9 kts is your displacement wave trap speed on a 52’ boat. What Charles Lindberg brought to WWII was the knowledge of how to maximize fuel range, and that was to drop the RPM to minimum using prop pitch, and run WOT. Now this was with gasoline engines and constant speed props. However the torque*time physics remains the same.

For a displacement hull boat with a Diesel using this theory, the set up with a fixed pitch prop to maximize your fuel range is to pitch the props so it makes hull speed at the minimum RPM it can that lets the rack come off the stops and get on the governor. Besides noting that it only made 2500 rpm, did you happen to note at what RPM it hit 9 kts? 8kts?

Now if you want faster acceleration, better towing capacity, or stronger brakes/ballet maneuvers, then you want to prop it so You can hit full RPM at a standstill working the props against each other.

With a fixed pitch prop it’s always a compromise between cruise efficiency and work boat ability. So you need to choose what you want to optimize for and how far you are willing to compromise the other to get it.

If you can get 9 kts at 2300 or less, I would be happy with the props if I wanted to optimize fuel economy, and I would let it roll at the minimum rpm it made 8.5-9, and have some Reserve for a strong headwind.

 

[Insequent]

Caphenning
You clearly posted in the wrong thread. Let me know where you meant it to go and I'll move it for you

 

[Caphenning]

Caphenning
You clearly posted in the wrong thread. Let me know where you meant it to go and I'll move it for you

In the OP was contained this:

The engines would only make 2500 RPM at 9 knots or so. The mechanic thinks the boat is over propped. The surveyor thinks the boat is overpropped. Others think the boat is overpropped. its a 52' (unsure of waterline length) 80,000lb displacement hull with twin lehman 135s and 3 bladed 24x17 props. Can anyone comment as to how much i need to repitch the props and how much that would cost? Or am I looking at new props? Or should I not worry about it? My thinking is that the engines should make full power even if full power is only needed occasionally during an emergency maneuver. and how much power difference is there between 2400 rpm and 2800 on an old FL135?

That’s what I was addressing, although I guess I could have read far enough to see he cancelled. Although if you can think of a useful place to put it, go for it.

 

[Insequent]

In the OP was contained this:

That’s what I was addressing, although I guess I could have read far enough to see he cancelled. Although if you can think of a useful place to put it, go for it.

My apologies. I had not realised you were responding to the OP as the thread had drifted onto other things. With your quoted post it now has more context!

 

[mvweebles]

Actually it has zero value.

There are two scenarios - you buy the boat or you don't buy the boat.

If you buy the boat the survey is worthless to anyone else but you as the boat is no longer on the market.

If you walk the survey has absolutely no more value to you. So no loss to you if someone else has it.

I understand both sides of the theory of whether or not to share the survey. I am firmly in the "share" camp as I believe that path is most likely to bring a negotiated result that offsets the cost of haul/survey. Educating a seller on the rationale of your offer is a good thing. He/she may not agree with the findings, and may feel you've asked for too much of a concession, but that's a much more productive negotiation than non-supported interpretations of a survey vs the actual survey itself.

Different strokes. In general, I've been very happy with the outcome of my transactions over the years and believe openness and transparency have delivered better value with less conflict than a more protectionist approach. Maybe I've left money on the table. Probably not much, but maybe. All I can say is I'm a "share" kind of buyer/seller

Peter

 

[bgillroy]

A C&V survey provides the following benefits:
1 Establishes FMV and insurability
2. True up price to condition (negotiation)
3. Written punch list for repairs
Most surveyors will work with a client on finding best boat without doing a full C&V. Charge 1/2 price to initially assess a boat for major issues then advising client who decided to continue or not based on early look at major condition items.

 

[BruceK]

Whether or not a buyer shares the survey with the seller depends where the buyer is going. If renegotiating, he might, or might just quote the parts relied on,suggesting other parts are probably complimentary about the boat and don`t help with reducing price. If the decision is to walk,why share it? If the buyer has lost time and $ on a non performing boat, why bother to deliver the seller a repair schedule? I doubt I would, but every case needs to be dealt with on its own merits, there are no hard and fast rules imo.