Snubber question
- Thread starter Lostsailor13
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SteveK
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match rope to chain strength, Why?
I’ve been told there is little difference in stretch (at 30-35 feet) but you have the added strength and chafe protection. My double braided line is rated the same as my 1/2 chain-9k lbs (can’t recall right now if it was working load or breaking load) and I can say it stretches plenty with 90t swinging on the hook.
Hippocampus
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Agree with Peter. Bows on boats are set up differently. On the prior sailboat the sprit where the rollers were was strong enough to pick up the boat let alone handle the stresses of anchoring. There was a baby stay below and the stay for the genny above. The sprit itself was massive.
On the current boat it’s a piece bolted on and not nearly as strong. I have friends and acquaintances in the industry and enjoy walking through yards examining and discussing boats that have been damaged. Unfortunately damage to cleats is not uncommon. It’s not uncommon practice to not replace core under a cleat. It’s not uncommon to use washers instead of a substantial backing plate. Also positioning of cleats is sometimes not ideal.
So over the years have seen grp damage related to cleats. Cleats pulled out. Structural damage to bows. So believe Peter raises a very important point. This thread has focused on snubber strength and stretch. Yes this is important. But equally important is how you can run your ground tackle gear to minimize the opportunity for chafe and prevent loading from damaging your boat. I would suggest some boat yoga and talking to your builder. Look underneath and see how your Sampson post and cleats are put together and attached to the boat. Some sailboats have an advantage as the standing rigging takes up some of the forces involved.
I like the way my current boat is done but wouldn’t trust loading up my sprit. The construction makes it much safer to use a bridle. For other boats it maybe be the opposite or either will serve. For some boats some reconstruction is in order so they can take the loading involved without damage.
On the current boat it’s a piece bolted on and not nearly as strong. I have friends and acquaintances in the industry and enjoy walking through yards examining and discussing boats that have been damaged. Unfortunately damage to cleats is not uncommon. It’s not uncommon practice to not replace core under a cleat. It’s not uncommon to use washers instead of a substantial backing plate. Also positioning of cleats is sometimes not ideal.
So over the years have seen grp damage related to cleats. Cleats pulled out. Structural damage to bows. So believe Peter raises a very important point. This thread has focused on snubber strength and stretch. Yes this is important. But equally important is how you can run your ground tackle gear to minimize the opportunity for chafe and prevent loading from damaging your boat. I would suggest some boat yoga and talking to your builder. Look underneath and see how your Sampson post and cleats are put together and attached to the boat. Some sailboats have an advantage as the standing rigging takes up some of the forces involved.
I like the way my current boat is done but wouldn’t trust loading up my sprit. The construction makes it much safer to use a bridle. For other boats it maybe be the opposite or either will serve. For some boats some reconstruction is in order so they can take the loading involved without damage.
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I am on day 3 of 30 mph winds with regular gusts into the upper 40s on anchor with my 2 years old snubber. This snubber will get replaced this year!
What good is a snubber that:
1 - has lost its' stretch (and of course you don't know and have to assume either way)
2 - isn't strong enough (mine isn't as strong as my chain is rated because I have overkill chain to allow aging)
I consider my anchor "system" the cheapest and most important boat insurance I have. And the snubber is the cheapest hardest working part of the system. Having a snubber that is old and undersized is a formula to have it fail at the worst time. Thinking that your snubber is mainly to take the load off the windlass 95% of the time sets you up for the time when the last thing you want to have is it to fail in those conditions.
Of course I am just a sailboater currently with a 41' 22,000 lb boat using a modern 60 lb anchor. I guess my thoughts wouldn't apply to a trawler using a 40 lb CQR.
What good is a snubber that:
1 - has lost its' stretch (and of course you don't know and have to assume either way)
2 - isn't strong enough (mine isn't as strong as my chain is rated because I have overkill chain to allow aging)
I consider my anchor "system" the cheapest and most important boat insurance I have. And the snubber is the cheapest hardest working part of the system. Having a snubber that is old and undersized is a formula to have it fail at the worst time. Thinking that your snubber is mainly to take the load off the windlass 95% of the time sets you up for the time when the last thing you want to have is it to fail in those conditions.
Of course I am just a sailboater currently with a 41' 22,000 lb boat using a modern 60 lb anchor. I guess my thoughts wouldn't apply to a trawler using a 40 lb CQR.
psneeld
Guru
Having the snubber fail is the least of my worries.
If the windlass or cleats failed or the bowsprit or sampson post broke...those aren't fixable in poor weather. That is more likely with a too strong snubber versus one with more energy absorption.
I however can tie on another snubber and let some chain out and all is back to normal...I have done it and it only takes a few minutes. I actually have done it a lot when the weather developed and I felt I needed a larger diameter snubber.
Everyone has their methods, probably because of how they prioritize the possible problems they and their individual boat may encounter.
Thinking one way is the only way and then you change or are cruising on a different boat can place you in trouble in my mind. Standardization works great when doing the same thing over and over with success. But you have to be able to unlearn that real quick sometimes.
Goes for giving advice too, many skippers and boats out there do need different tactics to do their best. Some should anchor but in the most fair conditions.
If the windlass or cleats failed or the bowsprit or sampson post broke...those aren't fixable in poor weather. That is more likely with a too strong snubber versus one with more energy absorption.
I however can tie on another snubber and let some chain out and all is back to normal...I have done it and it only takes a few minutes. I actually have done it a lot when the weather developed and I felt I needed a larger diameter snubber.
Everyone has their methods, probably because of how they prioritize the possible problems they and their individual boat may encounter.
Thinking one way is the only way and then you change or are cruising on a different boat can place you in trouble in my mind. Standardization works great when doing the same thing over and over with success. But you have to be able to unlearn that real quick sometimes.
Goes for giving advice too, many skippers and boats out there do need different tactics to do their best. Some should anchor but in the most fair conditions.
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SteveK
Guru
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2019
- Messages
- 5,109
- Location
- Gulf Isalnds BC canada
- Vessel Name
- Sea Sanctuary
- Vessel Make
- Bayliner 4588
I am learning that different areas have different needs in general. Then boaters within those areas develop different ideas. Many east coast practices are not noticed here in the PNW and vice versa.
Hippocampus
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- Plymouth
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- Hippocampus
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- Nordic Tug 42
PS raised the point it’s important to change your tactics in accordance to what’s appropriate to your boat and situation. There’s merit in that thinking.
While boat hunting before deciding to build a new boat had the opportunity to see a novel solution on a steel one off. Owner was a ship captain. He didn’t have a traditional windlass but rather a rotating drum on deck just before the house. He didn’t use traditional snubbers at all. Rather what looked like a monster spring mounted between the two chain drums that could attach to the chain being used. It was further damped by what i thought was a hydraulic cylinder if I understood his setup correctly. This was well over a decade ago and I didn’t like the rest of the boat so it was just a glance at it. I know little or nothing about ship’s ground tackle. Wonder if anyone here can comment if this was a transferring of thinking of his background? I have heard of the use of drums on deck with high latitude boats but the rest was alien. Owner wasn’t around to explain.
While boat hunting before deciding to build a new boat had the opportunity to see a novel solution on a steel one off. Owner was a ship captain. He didn’t have a traditional windlass but rather a rotating drum on deck just before the house. He didn’t use traditional snubbers at all. Rather what looked like a monster spring mounted between the two chain drums that could attach to the chain being used. It was further damped by what i thought was a hydraulic cylinder if I understood his setup correctly. This was well over a decade ago and I didn’t like the rest of the boat so it was just a glance at it. I know little or nothing about ship’s ground tackle. Wonder if anyone here can comment if this was a transferring of thinking of his background? I have heard of the use of drums on deck with high latitude boats but the rest was alien. Owner wasn’t around to explain.
psneeld
Guru
Despite what some think here (and have posted before)....there is plenty of literature that discusses the completely different approach of large vessel anchoring and us much, much smaller rec guys.
There may be some mega yacht experience here that may chime in or disagree.... but all one has to do is be observant on the actions of the two extreme groups on everyday and storm anchoring. Of course there is always middle ground between smaller recs and "ships" that may have hybrid or much varied tactics.
Does this sound like what the average TFer posts? Have read this same concept plus many other "ships anchoring" techniques many times.
ANCHORING PRINCIPLES
It is important to acknowledge that vessels anchor to the weight of the catenary in the anchor cable and not to the anchor....... snip
The best anchoring effect is achieved when the anchor cable curves gently so that most of the catenary lies under the surface. In this scenario, it is gravity alone that acts vertically down on the length of catenary that anchors the vessel – nothing else.
https://alandia.com/article/safe-mooring-anchoring/
There may be some mega yacht experience here that may chime in or disagree.... but all one has to do is be observant on the actions of the two extreme groups on everyday and storm anchoring. Of course there is always middle ground between smaller recs and "ships" that may have hybrid or much varied tactics.
Does this sound like what the average TFer posts? Have read this same concept plus many other "ships anchoring" techniques many times.
ANCHORING PRINCIPLES
It is important to acknowledge that vessels anchor to the weight of the catenary in the anchor cable and not to the anchor....... snip
The best anchoring effect is achieved when the anchor cable curves gently so that most of the catenary lies under the surface. In this scenario, it is gravity alone that acts vertically down on the length of catenary that anchors the vessel – nothing else.
https://alandia.com/article/safe-mooring-anchoring/
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