Nordhavn vs Fleming vs Kady Krogen

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Were I able to, I would look seriously at the Diesel Duck designs by George Beuhler and built by Seahorse Marine. Most of these vessels have steel hulls, which would serve well in any environment. There are many models ranging from 41' (the 382), to the 462 (51' overall) to above. Semi-custom is available. Buehler's book, "The Troller Yacht Book," 2nd ed., is a good read re: his design principles. As I say, I'm unasble, but if I were, that would be my choice. Good shopping! I envy you.
 
Add: re reading the comment and looking at the KK video I see you are taking more the underwater shape than the actual stern/transom shape.

Ours is somewhat in between, not wine glass but far from flat.


I agree. What's show in the video is really the dead rise, and nothing more.
 
And is the dead rise really that different for other boats like the one pictured below?


I'm no naval architect, but the whole thing smacks of pseudo-science and pseudo-engineering to me. I think KK makes good boats - actually excellent boats. But I think they do themselves a real disservice with this stuff. To me it just discredits them.
 

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Amadeus, thank you for your time. After reading your comments, I have given the sailboat another consideration and will reluctantly move it to my "B" list. As for the "FPB", I have spent some time reading and watching their information and really like the engineering, but not a fan of being around bare aluminum. It would be nice if a builder could have access to there hull design and produce one in grp.


TT, thank you for your time. I mentioned the N56, because I like the concept of a motorsailer. This is the reason for the N56 and Shannon 52 RDP on my list. As for the N62, this vessel ranks very good for my "functional" boxes and does OK with the "form" boxes.


DDW36, thank you for your time. As for the Diesel Duck, I really need to see on in person and simply try on the layout of this vessel. I would definitely like to visit and spend some time on a DD before I move forward with a purchase.


I have given this thread a lot of consideration and have slightly shifted my priorities to staying in the PNW coast for some time and possibly then over to the ICW. Someone made a reasonable comment about starting small for some time and this is the direction I wish to pursue. This search for the "perfect vessel" is daunting for many reason and the main reason is the safety and security for family.


With as much to consider; safety, reliability, manufactures support, livability, economy, serviceability, operations, resale, sea worthiness, etc., as of today I am taking another look the Fleming. I have went on them for several years at the shows and when they are next to others in their class, they seems to always come up short. The living and engine service areas are small, the interior design is functional and OK. The engineering intent is hard not to strongly consider and for me I like the lower profile and cg she has.



So I will spend time reviewing the Fleming in general with the 55 as the target. I will also keep reviewing the KK's for comparison and also as the #2 spot.


Thank you for this GREAT post and comments!!


~PD
 
Amadeus, thank you for your time. After reading your comments, I have given the sailboat another consideration and will reluctantly move it to my "B" list. As for the "FPB", I have spent some time reading and watching their information and really like the engineering, but not a fan of being around bare aluminum. It would be nice if a builder could have access to there hull design and produce one in grp.


TT, thank you for your time. I mentioned the N56, because I like the concept of a motorsailer. This is the reason for the N56 and Shannon 52 RDP on my list. As for the N62, this vessel ranks very good for my "functional" boxes and does OK with the "form" boxes.


DDW36, thank you for your time. As for the Diesel Duck, I really need to see on in person and simply try on the layout of this vessel. I would definitely like to visit and spend some time on a DD before I move forward with a purchase.


I have given this thread a lot of consideration and have slightly shifted my priorities to staying in the PNW coast for some time and possibly then over to the ICW. Someone made a reasonable comment about starting small for some time and this is the direction I wish to pursue. This search for the "perfect vessel" is daunting for many reason and the main reason is the safety and security for family.


With as much to consider; safety, reliability, manufactures support, livability, economy, serviceability, operations, resale, sea worthiness, etc., as of today I am taking another look the Fleming. I have went on them for several years at the shows and when they are next to others in their class, they seems to always come up short. The living and engine service areas are small, the interior design is functional and OK. The engineering intent is hard not to strongly consider and for me I like the lower profile and cg she has.



So I will spend time reviewing the Fleming in general with the 55 as the target. I will also keep reviewing the KK's for comparison and also as the #2 spot.


Thank you for this GREAT post and comments!!


~PD
You have a choice. Bring a 7-figure credit line and invest in a boat. Or invest in yourself by boning up on seamanship skills on a more modest boat. The former will take a couple years of keyboard tapping. Bad news is that when the boat is ready, it's a cold start for you so chances are you won't be ready and will have to wait another couple years and hopefully your interest won't wane or get distracted while you shake out the bugs and build skills.

The latter path gets you out there now and learning on the water asap. Maybe you find a more modest ambition, maybe you still want to girdle the globe. Keyboard cruising for multi million dollar yachts from a novice background is interesting, but buys bragging rights only.

Spend your time on the water building your skills instead of contributing to a luxury builders bottom line.
 
You have a choice. Bring a 7-figure credit line and invest in a boat. Or invest in yourself by boning up on seamanship skills on a more modest boat. The former will take a couple years of keyboard tapping. Bad news is that when the boat is ready, it's a cold start for you so chances are you won't be ready and will have to wait another couple years and hopefully your interest won't wane or get distracted while you shake out the bugs and build skills.

The latter path gets you out there now and learning on the water asap. Maybe you find a more modest ambition, maybe you still want to girdle the globe. Keyboard cruising for multi million dollar yachts from a novice background is interesting, but buys bragging rights only.

Spend your time on the water building your skills instead of contributing to a luxury builders bottom line.

Personally I am not much for arguing for limitations, my own or others. The idea that you have this long progression of study and incremental boat ownership to get where you want to be has worked for others and seems it is just the way it transpires for most. However, it is not necessary. Long distance passagemaking is not rocket science and contemporary technology makes it much easier. If PointDoc has the cash he should buy the boat he wants. Move aboard and hire a pro to help him cruise and learn the ropes. In a couple of months he'll know enough to get out on his own and learn by experience. He'll be out there having a great time and he'll be challenging himself constantly - the ultimate rush.

For some, time is way more precious than cash. Putting off a dream to "pay your dues" as defined by someone else, burns time and opportunity. If you've got it, spend it; you can't take it with you. Trade experiences for cash if you can. We don't live forever.
 
You have a choice. Bring a 7-figure credit line and invest in a boat. Or invest in yourself by boning up on seamanship skills on a more modest boat. The former will take a couple years of keyboard tapping. Bad news is that when the boat is ready, it's a cold start for you so chances are you won't be ready and will have to wait another couple years and hopefully your interest won't wane or get distracted while you shake out the bugs and build skills.

The latter path gets you out there now and learning on the water asap. Maybe you find a more modest ambition, maybe you still want to girdle the globe. Keyboard cruising for multi million dollar yachts from a novice background is interesting, but buys bragging rights only.

Spend your time on the water building your skills instead of contributing to a luxury builders bottom line.


Good advice. I agree 100%
 
For some, time is way more precious than cash. Putting off a dream to "pay your dues" as defined by someone else, burns time and opportunity. If you've got it, spend it; you can't take it with you. Trade experiences for cash if you can. We don't live forever.

Not a matter of paying your dues, its a matter of gaining confidence. Sure, money can buy a certain amount - private instruction, endless redundancy, $25k searchlights, $40k dinghys, multiple generators and watermakers, etc, But in the end, the barrier that will keep you from cutting docklines and declaring independence will be the confidence that resides between your ears. You can spend a couple years thinking you want the penultimate passagemaker, or you can spend it on an available boat having fun and learning the ropes. I count myself as one who feels the press of time - why anyone would recommend a newbie spend time figuring out how to buy their way out of risk versus investing in themselves is beyond me But so be it. Not to say Nordhavns are not great boats - they are. But it would be like my saying I want to be a race car driver and although I have no idea what type of racing might suit me, I find F1 pretty cool so I am only considering a Maclaren or WIlliams.

As you say, to some, time is precious. Many of us on this forum have more mileage in the rear view mirror than the road ahead. I'm advocating spending the time wisely, not on a science project. This forum gets a post like this every couple months - I'm guessing vast majority of OP's get wrapped around the axle trying to decide on the perfect risk-free vessel to offset their lack of skills. All I'm saying is there is a different path.

Spend your time wisely and invest in yourself to reduce risk, not doo-dads and trinkets on a boat that will cost tens of thousands of dollars and 100's of hours to maintain, even if you pay someone else. Look, I'm the first guy to say it's easier to learn to drive a boat than to figure out how to pay for it. But that's once you have a boat. Let's be honest - given the distraction and time consumed to select the perfect Nordhavn/KK/Flemming/Etc, these folks are years away from provisioning their boat and cutting docklines. To encourage otherwise is nice, but not likely.

One person's opinion, that's all. It's not the boat, it's the journey. Anyone who thinks it's the boat is at-risk of being disappointed and going broke.

Peter
 
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Old saying, “Life is what’s happening while we are making plans.”

We can spend years getting, equipping and updating our boats and just when we get everything perfect, we wake up dead. Let’s hope the next owner sees the value our efforts.
 
"Why anyone would recommend a newbie spend time figuring out how to buy their way out of risk versus investing in themselves is beyond me"

Peter, why is investing in your skill set and developing experience only applicable in a smaller vessel? Why learn to operate and maintain a smaller boat that is not your ultimate goal when it is almost certainly going to be substantively different that the boat you really want, not only the boat, but the mission. It makes no sense, even if that's the way you did it. If you can afford it, as Nike says, "Go For It". Otherwise you are spending money and time needlessly. You don't think the "confidence that comes between your ears" is something you can develop on your own boat in a concentrated manner, irrespective of size or money spent. Frankly it sounds to me that you have an axe to gring when it comes to wealthy people spending money on boats and not meeting your expectations. It's their money, let them spend it. I'm betting that PointDoc is a smart guy who can cut right to the chase and concentrate on the goal while not arguing for his own limitations. He doesn't have to spend two years making a decision. Timid people might, and people who are dreaming and don't have the resources. But successful, motivated people do not.

In my life I have jumped in with both feet and prevailed where others have said it can't be done, numerous times. So have countless people. It's the journey indeed, but if you don't challenge yourself, if you are not pushing your limits a bit, if you aren't reaching for the ring or chasing a goal, you are missing the best part of the ride...

Bruce

To each his own.
 
We can spend years getting, equipping and updating our boats and just when we get everything perfect, we wake up dead.


Yeah, unfortunately we’ve seen too many newish boats for sale where the man died while it was still under construction or preparation. I feel somber each time I read that description in the ad.
 
"Why anyone would recommend a newbie spend time figuring out how to buy their way out of risk versus investing in themselves is beyond me"

Peter, why is investing in your skill set and developing experience only applicable in a smaller vessel? Why learn to operate and maintain a smaller boat that is not your ultimate goal when it is almost certainly going to be substantively different that the boat you really want, not only the boat, but the mission. It makes no sense, even if that's the way you did it. If you can afford it, as Nike says, "Go For It". Otherwise you are spending money and time needlessly. You don't think the "confidence that comes between your ears" is something you can develop on your own boat in a concentrated manner, irrespective of size or money spent. Frankly it sounds to me that you have an axe to gring when it comes to wealthy people spending money on boats and not meeting your expectations. It's their money, let them spend it. I'm betting that PointDoc is a smart guy who can cut right to the chase and concentrate on the goal while not arguing for his own limitations. He doesn't have to spend two years making a decision. Timid people might, and people who are dreaming and don't have the resources. But successful, motivated people do not.

In my life I have jumped in with both feet and prevailed where others have said it can't be done, numerous times. So have countless people. It's the journey indeed, but if you don't challenge yourself, if you are not pushing your limits a bit, if you aren't reaching for the ring or chasing a goal, you are missing the best part of the ride...

Bruce

To each his own.
First, I could have softened my tone. For that I truly apologize. I have no ax to grind with rich folks, though I can't imagine many retired school teachers asking how to chose between a Nordhavn/Krogan/Flemming. I just tire of the constant drumbeat emphasizes boat versus seamanship skills. When seamanship skills are mentioned, it's often done in a condescending manner. "Take power squadron classes" or "Charter for a week" something similar.

As makobuilder and OldDan (who went from N46 to AT34) mentioned in previous posts, these are not "just do it" boats. Even with brokerage boats, the purchase cycle is usually years, not months. Does it have to be that way? No, but it almost always is. There are a million small decisions to be made, often with hours of research. Buying used leapfrogs some of this, but the search itself becomes near-global and some level of refit is still needed. And at the end, a couple years have passed, the owner is well read, but still not very experienced. While buying a used boat leap frogs much of that, it gets bogged down in two ways. Finding the right boat in the resale market which is often a near global search.

In my mind, here’s the rub about focusing on the boat: at its core, the theory is that if you want to cruise any distance at all, buy a tank you will be okay. There was a recent thread that suggested a GB42 was not suited to cruise from PNW to Florida. That is categorically not true! It may not be the perfect boat, and you will be more constrained by weather, but you are constrained in any boat so its all relative.

There is a not-so-fine line between jumping in with both feet and eloping. I once asked a business acquaintance – an attorney no less, how he met his wife. “I met her on a blind date, we moved in together 3-days later, one month later we were married. That was 19-years ago.” What are the odds of that story having a happy ending? There is no amount of research and due diligence that makes that a good template for life - I doubt anyone with kids would be pleased with their child saying "I met Mr/Mrs Right tonight! We're moving in Sunday! We're gonna Just Do It!"

Look, these are amazing boats. And they all have many incredibly informed and knowledgeable owners who have thousands of offshore miles under their keel and who make incredibly informed choices about equipment. Look no further than Ken Williams' blog or MVDirona's YouTube channel. There is nothing wrong with the boat - they have the boat they want and made deliberate decisions along the way (and, I might add, not their first boat).

To my thinking, better advice to someone who wants to Just Do It and jump into a 7-figure boat is to be realistic about the long road ahead of them. There are often multiple ways to mitigate risk - seamanship skills often trump a poultice of cash. If you want to jump-the-line, do it in parallel, not series - build your skills and build the perfect boat simultaneously, not in series. Occasionally, you hear of folks getting an interim boat (say, the GB42 mentioned above) and cruising her as best they can given life's limitations. When the time comes, they sell the GB quickly at a small loss and move on. Chances are any financial loss will be offset by making more informed outfitting decisions garnered from experience - do we really need side decks on both sides? Does a center-console dinghy make sense for our use? By far, the biggest risk is that by the time your dreamboat is ready, you realize it's not your dreamboat because you've spent 2 years with Plan B and you've learned a lot. But that risk exists regardless. It's just more prominent in this scenario. And there is some ability to alter course on Dreamboat as you learn on Plan B.

That sounds a lot more like Just Do It to my ears. But i totally agree - to each their own.
 
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I think the point here is that there are two parts to boating; the boat and the crew. Don't forget the crew part, and don't underestimate how much there is to learn to be safe and competent at it. For many people - probably most - it's a set of skills and knowledge developed over a lifetime of boating.


But it doesn't have to be that way. If you have a mind to do it, you can jump in, hire a training captain, and get ramped up quickly. I know a number of people who have done this, including one who was here on TF for a while. It's just important to understand how much there is to learn. Being inquisitive and committed to learning rapidly is very different from being clueless and "jumping in".


I don't have any solid statistics, but anecdotally I'd say there is a pretty significant rejection rate for people who start their boating experience later in life and with one big step into cruising. They see, hear, and read about all the good stuff, but don't really get the bad stuff until it's too late. Very basic things are discovered like:


1) One of you gets horribly sea sick


2) The first time your anchor drags in the middle of the night, or another boat drags down on you, scares the crap out of you.


3) Your first encounter with bad weather scares the crap out of you.


4) After you get over the bad weather experience, you come to learn that was nothing and the weather gets much worse.


5) You learn that your spouse is fundamentally less interested in this particular adventure than you are.


6) You realize that there is a lot of work involved in boating - much more than you expected - and it's really not enough fun to make it worth while.


7) You get sick of everything breaking, all the time, and say "screw it".


8) You learn that you and your spouse need more space and independence than living on a boat provides.


9) You simply can't stand being cooped up on a boat so much.


I've seen elements of all of these in short-lived, bigger boat ownership.
 
But it doesn't have to be that way. If you have a mind to do it, you can jump in, hire a training captain, and get ramped up quickly. I know a number of people who have done this, including one who was here on TF for a while. It's just important to understand how much there is to learn. Being inquisitive and committed to learning rapidly is very different from being clueless and "jumping in".

How do you make an informed decision on the former (boat) before the latter (skills)? Mind you, I used to make a decent living providing that skills' training "Easier to learn to operate a boat than to be able to pay for it."

I like your list of reasons people wash-out of cruising these boats. I would add a few other reasons:

First, they evolve and the dream runs it's course. Often coincides with birth of a grandchild or illness, perhaps of an elderly parent.

Second is expense - these boats are damn expensive to keep running, and I don't mean fuel.

Finally, the dream is independence but the reality is anything but. This is sort of related to TT's 'things break.' But it's more than that - many owners of these boats are closely coupled to a network of maintenance and repair technicians and factory mechanics who must sometimes be flown in to fix something because the whiz-bang exotic piece of gear is a mysterious black-box to local mechanics who can fix anything....except that crazy doo-dad.

I have no bones with the OP or similar posts. And at my core, I'm a just-do-it kind of guy.....with limits. I agree with TT that it's a package deal - skills (which are constantly evolving) and the boat. I'm just saying it's a balance, and these posts are heavily skewed towards the boat - it's something tangible than can be researched versus skills that are intangible. For many OP's, getting a tank of a boat fixes a problem they will not have after a year or so of cruising. Example: buy a boat that will survive a perfect storm. A few months in, they figure out weather and seasonal travel and will never encounter a perfect storm. But they will have paid a LOT of money and spent a LOT of time getting the perfect-storm boat. But what they have is a very complex piece of equipment that - the challenge is not the storm, it's just keeping everything running.

So maybe it's not so much seamanship skills, but a truthful discussion on what happens when you check all the boxes when equipping. When you add baubles to make life easier, you are providing job security for a legion of tradesman - plumber, electrician, mechanic. If it's someone other than yourself, you'll be spending a lot of time and a lot of money finding a proxy. No matter how well built or how stout or how seaworthy the boat is.

In the end, I see a blanket "Just Do It" as a slight cop-out. Something you would tell the neighbor's kids, not your own.

Peter
 
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I agree it’s much, much harder to make a good boat choice when you have limited understanding of what cruising works for you. I think you just need to have a tolerance for making mistakes, and correcting them. If you find the boat doesn’t work for you, you can always sell and get something else. Now that of course brings up the question of what boats hold value better, and are more marketable. Like with all this there is huge range in individual approach. We discovered, learned, figures out what we wanted out of cruising and a boat over three boats (now going on 4) over about 12 years. Each boat was good for our next step, and led to the next step after that. Looking back I didn’t know where I was going to end up. So had I tried to do it in one step, there is no way I would have gotten it right, or even come close. So I have no regrets. But that’s just what worked for us.
 
As you have probably noticed, the majority of power boats have moved to squared-off sterns. The benefit is less pitching compared to a wine glass. So like all things boat, you are always trading things off. You also pick up a little more interior volume with a squared off stern.


Another question to ask yourself is if a wine glass stern was all good and no bad, wouldn't all boats be built that way? Why is it than virtually none are in modern designs?

Going by my squared off stern hull, I wouldn't necessarily say it pitches a lot less compared to other hulls I've been on, but it pitches differently. Given a buoyant enough bow, the square stern will still pitch significantly, but the rotation point for pitch will be further back. Depending on boat layout, that may give a more comfortable ride for some places on the boat. In my salon, for example, you're forward of the pitch rotation point, so you just feel an up/down motion, rather than the forward/back you get while on top of the rotation point (which is annoyingly just about under the helm seat).

The downside of the square stern is following seas, particularly on slow boats that don't have big enough rudders. Given enough rudder power or enough speed capability, it works out fine. But run slowly without a lot of rudder authority and you get shoved all over the place.
 
If PointDoc has the cash he should buy the boat he wants. Move aboard and hire a pro to help him cruise and learn the ropes. In a couple of months he'll know enough to get out on his own and learn by experience. He'll be out there having a great time and he'll be challenging himself constantly - the ultimate rush.

For some, time is way more precious than cash. Putting off a dream to "pay your dues" as defined by someone else, burns time and opportunity. If you've got it, spend it; you can't take it with you. Trade experiences for cash if you can. We don't live forever.

Absolutely correct. A serious, smart credit worthy person - with the time and health - should not be reluctant to do it now.

One thing about the F55, they have lousy ER space. The F65 is a whole different story. You might check out the N59CP listed on the Nordhavn site. Well made, fast or slow cruiser and a real bargain. A perfect PNW vessel IMHO backed up by the wonderful Nordhavn team, best in the business.
 
Absolutely correct. A serious, smart credit worthy person - with the time and health - should not be reluctant to do it now.

One thing about the F55, they have lousy ER space. The F65 is a whole different story. You might check out the N59CP listed on the Nordhavn site. Well made, fast or slow cruiser and a real bargain. A perfect PNW vessel IMHO backed up by the wonderful Nordhavn team, best in the business.

When I owned my N46, there was no “team” on the east coast. When I would call the Nordhavn folks for information and advice, they told me their boats were semi custom built. In other words, they didn’t know for sure.

Per Nordhavns in general, I hated that teak rail cap.
Same thing about a GB, way too much teak.
Per the other 2 makers, I do not have first hand knowledge of the quantity of teak.
IF you strip the exterior teak and let it go gray, eventually the grain will open up, that opens you up to over time to replacing sections of teak.
Per oiling the teak, I have been told, it collects dirt and grime.
Maintaining teak reduces my nap time. LOL
 
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In the end, I see a blanket "Just Do It" as a slight cop-out. Something you would tell the neighbor's kids, not your own.

Peter

The world is filled with people who "just do it" and are highly successful, in all endeavors. Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Steven Jobs are examples on the top end. We all know these types of people, whether friends relatives or bosses. If so inclined, they already know that boating is not rocket science and a marlin splice and square vs round stern are largely irrelevant.

In our marina I know many who just did it. Not to mention most seem very smart, motivated and adaptable. Just like great athletes, some are just born different and without a silver spoon become successful in their life pursuits and hobbies like interesting cars, nice boats or airplanes.

Self realization is important. Hats off to those who were born with that "intangible thing" and pursue their dreams and lofty goals in many endeavors. Congrats to the Preston Tuckers and John DeLoreans of the world too.
 
The world is filled with people who "just do it" and are highly successful, in all endeavors. Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Steven Jobs are examples on the top end. We all know these types of people, whether friends relatives or bosses. If so inclined, they already know that boating is not rocket science and a marlin splice and square vs round stern are largely irrelevant.

I can assure you that every successful example you can cite had two things to accompany their dream, passion, and vision: (i) prior relevant experience, and (ii) risk-management. Without those, they would need a healthy dose of luck or capital (or both) to withstand the enhanced and protracted trial-and-error cycles from from not having (i) and/or (ii). There are exceptions of course, but grit and gumption only gets you so far.

Peter
 
Per Nordhavns in general, I hated that teak rail cap.

I delivered one of the last N46's built in around 2002 or 2003 from Dana Point to Blaine, WA. She had glassed-over caprails. I was in awe - they looked so cool, and the maintenance benefits were obvious. My Willard 36 is in a yard in Mexico being painted (stalled due to Covid) and I had the caprails glassed-over and LPU'd a contrasting color. Unless I accidentally drop a toothpick on deck, there will be zero exposed wood on the exterior of Weebles.

Back to the thread (well, almost), what made you buy the N46, and what made you chose the AT34 when the N46 was totaled? Knowing what you know now, would you do anything different?

Peter
 
Going by my squared off stern hull, I wouldn't necessarily say it pitches a lot less compared to other hulls I've been on, but it pitches differently. Given a buoyant enough bow, the square stern will still pitch significantly, but the rotation point for pitch will be further back. Depending on boat layout, that may give a more comfortable ride for some places on the boat. In my salon, for example, you're forward of the pitch rotation point, so you just feel an up/down motion, rather than the forward/back you get while on top of the rotation point (which is annoyingly just about under the helm seat).

The downside of the square stern is following seas, particularly on slow boats that don't have big enough rudders. Given enough rudder power or enough speed capability, it works out fine. But run slowly without a lot of rudder authority and you get shoved all over the place.



Agreed, and all excellent examples of why you can’t judge a hull by one thing, like the aft deadrise. There are just SO many factors involved.
 
I delivered one of the last N46's built in around 2002 or 2003 from Dana Point to Blaine, WA. She had glassed-over caprails. I was in awe - they looked so cool, and the maintenance benefits were obvious. My Willard 36 is in a yard in Mexico being painted (stalled due to Covid) and I had the caprails glassed-over and LPU'd a contrasting color. Unless I accidentally drop a toothpick on deck, there will be zero exposed wood on the exterior of Weebles.

Back to the thread (well, almost), what made you buy the N46, and what made you chose the AT34 when the N46 was totaled? Knowing what you know now, would you do anything different?

Peter
Reputation, stabilized, price was right.
My N46 had 2 staterooms, I spent big bucks updating it, cedar line hanging closet, filled the starboard side, other than the closet, with drawers and still had a bunk on top, raised the port berth to get under berth storage. Sent the ‘then wife’ to a one week Chapman school, which I recommend.
No one wanted to go over night so I really didn’t need a 2nd stateroom.
Now I have acquired a beautiful, heart of gold, Vietnamese ‘house mouse’, Yen. Her folks came over for a couple of months and gave them the owner’s and only cabin. So if I had to do it all over again, I would have bought the 42ft (?) 2 stateroom boat and given them the 2nd stateroom. SMIRK
The 34 filled all the blocks.... separate shower stall, room for washer/dryer, more space in the ER. The down side, small hanging closet. Yen moved aboard with her clothing and PRESTO, that hanging closet suddenly became too small. LOL. There is just no way to expand the hanging closet other than buying a bigger boat. I gave her 3 out of 4 drawers in stateroom and half the hanging closet, put hydraulic assists to raise the berth and stashed spare parts etc there.
Trust me, we had some heated discussion on where she could put her clothing and she has learned to accept the phrase “no room” when it comes to more clothes.
 
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I can assure you that every successful example you can cite had two things to accompany their dream, passion, and vision: (i) prior relevant experience, and (ii) risk-management. Without those, they would need a healthy dose of luck or capital (or both) to withstand the enhanced and protracted trial-and-error cycles from from not having (i) and/or (ii). There are exceptions of course, but grit and gumption only gets you so far.

Peter

Peter
A quick read, or detailed if you so choose, will show that NOBODY had the electric car marketing and design success that Musk brought to the table. Tesla is with a greater market cap than Ford or GM. Gates dropped out of college and the rest is history. Visionaries and those that make their dreams reality abound. Ray Kroc anyone?

Regarding luck? Of course it matters. But knowing and making good on an opportunity often requires a vision not all can grasp on a timely basis. Hats off to those with greater smarts and derring do than I possess.
 
"Why anyone would recommend a newbie spend time figuring out how to buy their way out of risk versus investing in themselves is beyond me"

Peter, why is investing in your skill set and developing experience only applicable in a smaller vessel? Why learn to operate and maintain a smaller boat that is not your ultimate goal when it is almost certainly going to be substantively different that the boat you really want, not only the boat, but the mission. It makes no sense, even if that's the way you did it. If you can afford it, as Nike says, "Go For It". Otherwise you are spending money and time needlessly. You don't think the "confidence that comes between your ears" is something you can develop on your own boat in a concentrated manner, irrespective of size or money spent. Frankly it sounds to me that you have an axe to gring when it comes to wealthy people spending money on boats and not meeting your expectations. It's their money, let them spend it. I'm betting that PointDoc is a smart guy who can cut right to the chase and concentrate on the goal while not arguing for his own limitations. He doesn't have to spend two years making a decision. Timid people might, and people who are dreaming and don't have the resources. But successful, motivated people do not.

In my life I have jumped in with both feet and prevailed where others have said it can't be done, numerous times. So have countless people. It's the journey indeed, but if you don't challenge yourself, if you are not pushing your limits a bit, if you aren't reaching for the ring or chasing a goal, you are missing the best part of the ride...

Bruce

To each his own.

Very well said. I've spent my life taking risks and doing what I felt was right. My first boat will be all that I dreamed it to be.
 
Peter
A quick read, or detailed if you so choose, will show that NOBODY had the electric car marketing and design success that Musk brought to the table. Tesla is with a greater market cap than Ford or GM. Gates dropped out of college and the rest is history. Visionaries and those that make their dreams reality abound. Ray Kroc anyone?

Regarding luck? Of course it matters. But knowing and making good on an opportunity often requires a vision not all can grasp on a timely basis. Hats off to those with greater smarts and derring do than I possess.

Nice stories. In all cases, especially Musk and Gates, required a LOT of funding and investors with legions of engineers, marketers, analysts, accountants, and lawyers. Not exactly a group who would cut loose with a ton of money without a solid business plan, including risk mitigation etc. They saw gaps in the market where competitors were happy to sit on their embedded customer base and income streams - the Innovators Dilemma. It's why Sears is bankrupt and Amazon, a company that didn't exist 25-years ago, is the world's juggernaut. These leaders are, no doubt, amazing examples of corporate leadership, vision, and innovation. But if anyone thinks they just jumped-in with both feet, well, they didn't. No disrespect to anyone here - but "Just Do It" is a quaint tale, and I'm sure Musk and others are happy to foster the story of entrepreneurial zest. But it rarely works that way - hope is not a strategy.

Peter
 
"Why anyone would recommend a newbie spend time figuring out how to buy their way out of risk versus investing in themselves is beyond me"................ If you can afford it, as Nike says, "Go For It". Otherwise you are spending money and time needlessly.................. I'm betting that PointDoc is a smart guy who can cut right to the chase and concentrate on the goal while not arguing for his own limitations. He doesn't have to spend two years making a decision..........In my life I have jumped in with both feet and prevailed where others have said it can't be done, numerous times..
Well said & I'm in total agreement. As Dirty Harry said, "A man has to know his limitations" & I'm sure that Point Doc knows his. :popcorn:
 
Nice stories. In all cases, especially Musk and Gates, required a LOT of funding and investors with legions of engineers, marketers, analysts, accountants, and lawyers. Not exactly a group who would cut loose with a ton of money without a solid business plan, including risk mitigation etc. They saw gaps in the market where competitors were happy to sit on their embedded customer base and income streams - the Innovators Dilemma. It's why Sears is bankrupt and Amazon, a company that didn't exist 25-years ago, is the world's juggernaut. These leaders are, no doubt, amazing examples of corporate leadership, vision, and innovation. But if anyone thinks they just jumped-in with both feet, well, they didn't. No disrespect to anyone here - but "Just Do It" is a quaint tale, and I'm sure Musk and others are happy to foster the story of entrepreneurial zest. But it rarely works that way - hope is not a strategy.

Peter

Peter, I respectfully disagree. I know a number of these guys. I sell them multimillion dollar deep submersibles to go aboard their $100+ million yachts. They are all risk takers, as well as innovators. The availability of conventional financing is inversely proportional to the degree of innovation in the project. Many committed successful business owners have guaranteed unconventional loans with everything they owned, and sometimes stuff they didn't. A mis-step causes complete financial ruin. They jumped in with both feet because they believed in themselves and their judgement.

Try telling an Elon Musk or a Ray Dalio they need to buy a smaller boat than they want and then "pay their dues" over a few years. Good luck with that...
 
Well said & I'm in total agreement. As Dirty Harry said, "A man has to know his limitations" & I'm sure that Point Doc knows his. :popcorn:

You know Walt, I had the exact same movie thought awhile ago. Spot on.
 
Peter, I respectfully disagree. I know a number of these guys. I sell them multimillion dollar deep submersibles to go aboard their $100+ million yachts.

For the 0.0001% that's like money they have found behind the couch.

The rest of us need to be a bit smarter with our hard earned.
 
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