First Purchase Advice

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by sunchaser

Is it possible to find a decent seaworthy vessel for this amount without it being a beater?

I haven't shopped recently, but I think almost certainly. This particular model is/was relatively basic. The original Mainship folks (actually, it was Silverton Marine, in those days... up to at least '87) built a solid, comfortable boat with few frills. The hull seemed solid as a truck, and I think the design was by Cherubini (not positive, and not sure that would mean hull, or whole boat). They didn't cost an arm and a leg then, and shouldn't need your first born thrown in, now.

Starting with a good candidate and doing some basic upkeep things right away -- e.g., complete diesel service including valve adjustments if necessary -- should give DB a solid start. Washing, polishing (compounding if necessary), waxing the hull and also refreshing some stuff right away that might be on its last legs (e.g., the enclosure, maybe) would make the boat seem almost new. Swapping out maybe old electronics for modern stuff, and you've got a jewel.

-Chris

[Pau Hana]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

1. I did not suggest that he forego a survey, merely that he educate himself to at least separate the wheat from the chafe before spending money on a surveyor

2. 2,967 surveys under my belt so I've been around the business for a while. Brokers are no different than any other profession. In my experience only about 10% are exceptional and put the client first. There are as many dangerous brokers out there as there are surveyors. For the "newbie" to trust either one blindly is foolish.

And I agreed with you about the education bit- no argument here. My point is that reviewing data online, in books, etc, cannot give one a great knowledge base. A buyer, especially a first time owner, is usually excited and not looking for things that you or I may routinely look for in an initial vessel inspection.

As for the 2,67 surveys under your belt- I'm sure that, based on your strong recommendation, that you never, ever, received a referral call from a broker, and you performed all 2,967 surveys based on word of mouth, yellow pages, or internet referrals only, right?

I work in one of the largest boating areas in the nation, and have written thousands of policies for watercraft from 10' to multiple hundreds of feet. It's very routine for a broker to recommend a surveyor to a client, and there has never been a rash of surveys that have come into our office (or that of our competitors) that are suspect for the reasons you mention.

As large as the Pacific Northwest is, the professional community of brokers, lenders, insurance, surveyors, and repair facilities that serve the boating community is relatively small and very tight knit. We rely on each other- referrals fly around on a common basis. If a professional in any discipline proves themselves to be substandard, the referrals to that person are quick to dry up.

I don't know much about Port Ontario, but I can tell you the same applies in the SF Bay area, Southern California, Galveston Bay, Florida, and the Chesapeake Bay.

[boatpoker]

[/QUOTE]And I agreed with you about the education bit- no argument here. My point is that reviewing data online, in books, etc, cannot give one a great knowledge base. A buyer, especially a first time owner, is usually excited and not looking for things that you or I may routinely look for in an initial vessel inspection.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

Exactly... that is why I wrote Marine Survey 101. We all had to start somewhere

[Pau Hana]

I note that you ignored my question about your receiving (or not receiving) broker referrals for your 2,967 surveys.....

[boatpoker]

I tend to do that I prefer not to be baited

[Pau Hana]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

I tend to do that I prefer not to be baited

It's not baiting. You lend your expertise as a professional, including hawking your website. You make declarative statements about what the OP of this thread should do regarding his upcoming purchase and surveys- then you are challenged about a seemingly directly contradictory statement you make ("never, ever use the surveyor recommended by the broker").

Professional to professional, you should rise to the occasion and explain yourself. I know a bit about marine insurance, and interject about insurance based on my expertise- and I cite my information sources so the folks reading the info can check things out for themselves. I also don't advertise in any way, because I feel that doing so may lead TF members to believe that I am here to toll for their business- which I am not.

So- care to elaborate?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Pau Hana

So- care to elaborate?

No thanks, I have expressed my opinion and arguing with you will not change it.

[Conrad]

When it comes to getting a surveyor recommendation I've found that my insurance broker provides the best advice. After all, it is in his (or her) best interest to get you into a well found vessel.

[Pau Hana]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

No thanks, I have expressed my opinion and arguing with you will not change it.

Then, respectfully, I would caution the OP to weigh the advice you offer as suspect at best.

I'm not looking for an argument- but I do believe that those of us that offer advice as professionals in this arena should be held to a higher standard, and be transparent, for this benefits all TF members.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by divebums

FF - I would love to take 2-3 weeks and bring a boat up the AICW to the bay. Unfortunately, it's just not realistic for us. We're both still working and would be able to get off 10 days at very best. The plan was to use this boat every weekend while we finish out the last 5-10 years of our working lives to see the bay and learn how to operate a larger boat. That's why I was inquiring about cost of towing it here. Any ideas on tow fees?

And...

Sunchaser - Hopefully some of the more experienced folks here can comment on the seaworthy characteristics of a $25-$50k vessel. I can tell you that yachtworld at any given time has roughly 20 Mainship 34's from 1978-1985 in that price range. For me it will be a weekender some i'm not looking for many bells and whistles. My priorities are sound hull, solid deck, good fuel tanks, and a dependable motor. I have no need for washer/dryers, water heaters, radar, and many other options. I hope I can find one that fits my needs.

DB, out of curiosity, I just had a look on Yachtworld, and only at Mainship III models (1983-1987 listed). Only on in FL anyway, a couple on the west coast... and the rest are probably pretty much within a couple four (or maybe 5) days delivery distance. The '87 on Kent Island is about a 7 hour run at Mainship speed to Solomons.

FWIW, were it me I'd look at all the Mainship III models first (not just on Yachtworld, but wherever)... and only look at the older ones if none of the IIIs ring your chimes.

That's largely driven in our case by the transom door in that model, a surprisingly critical feature for our use.

-Chris

[divebums]

ranger42c - I saw the '87 on yachtworld for $49k. The pictures looked clean. My only reservation was the J&T Detroit 8.2L engine. I'd read some posts stating that it was an older engine and folks were having trouble finding parts for it. That was the boat that got me leaning more towards the perkins. Am I correct in my unerstanding of the J&T Detroit?

[ronlord]

The older Mainships are great, watch for soft decks which seems to be the only big issue with them. The Perkins 165 NA or 200hp turbo engines will run forever with decent maintenance.

If you can pony up a few more bucks, take a look at the later model 350/390 trawlers which are the next gen Mainship trawlers.

[BruceK]

There is a world of difference between a broker recommending a surveyor, and that surveyor preferring the interests of the broker, and his own, to those of his boat buyer client. I suggest exercising great caution implying the latter.
That said, the novice boat buyer is very much in the hands of his advisers. An astute novice buyer may be able to weigh the accuracy of advice, others may not. Advisers advise but clients decide. We can only hope they do so with the best advice.

[boatpoker]

[QUOTE=BruceK;203593]There is a world of difference between a broker recommending a surveyor, and that surveyor preferring the interests of the broker, and his own, to those of his boat buyer client.QUOTE]

Not a matter of the surveyor preferring the interests of the broker but more of some brokers perferring the use of a lazy surveyor that won't kill the deal.

[FF]

Many pre sale surveyors will attempt to find enough >wrong< with the boat to pay for their service.

The insurance surveyors will do this less , but frequently claim some agency recommendations are LAW , (they are NOT) just to show how sharp they are.

Human nature is human nature, CAVIAT EMPTOR renting a surveyor.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by divebums

ranger42c - I saw the '87 on yachtworld for $49k. The pictures looked clean. My only reservation was the J&T Detroit 8.2L engine. I'd read some posts stating that it was an older engine and folks were having trouble finding parts for it. That was the boat that got me leaning more towards the perkins. Am I correct in my unerstanding of the J&T Detroit?

Not sure about parts. Ours was the 8.2T, and I don't remember ever having to order a part for it

Other than replacing water pump impellers, which is periodic maintenance in a (often) generic bolt-on pump, anyway.

The one issue we had sometime in '98 I think was about the heat exchanger; can't recall details, but a service notice had been published and the original owner apparently hadn't seen that. It wasn't a big deal (and not an expensive update), but I can't quite remember what it was.

The 8.2T was not held in high regard for some applications, though I suspect that was more for higher output situations. In our case, it seemed fine.

You could speak with J&T about parts, and/or check with folks on boatdiesel.com

You could also look into the parts situation for older Perkins engines, to compare; I dunno anything about that. Looks like there are several likely Mk III candidates out there with the Perkins installation...

-Chris

[Nomad Willy]

I always tell people I know to find a boat that has been re-powered and re-tanked. These are the very expensive items that is best to have other people pay for. However you'll then need to accept their choices of equipment.

And of course it's ideal to find a boat that has new everything.

[Underway]

Originally Posted by divebums

ranger42c - I saw the '87 on yachtworld for $49k. The pictures looked clean. My only reservation was the J&T Detroit 8.2L engine. I'd read some posts stating that it was an older engine and folks were having trouble finding parts for it. That was the boat that got me leaning more towards the perkins. Am I correct in my unerstanding of the J&T Detroit?

There is a great deal of hearsay, urban legend and B/S regarding the 8.2T. Virtually all of it stems from an early problem with cylinder head clamping force. We have twin 8.2 250's and love them. No leaks, no smoke, instant start, no troublesome injection pumps, and although I haven't needed to buy a single part or conduct one iota of maintenance beyond hoses and belts in the nine years we've owned the boat, I do keep an eye on the spares on e-bay, etc. No availability issues that I can detect. The core is basically a truck engine. Parts are everywhere. The only unique part...water cooled manifolds...are available from Mesa and are also available on the used market. The 220/250 hp turbo engines are gems. As previously stated, I'd be careful about the higher horsepower versions. Just make sure the heads have the larger diameter bolts (factory installed after s/n 8G-139423). Earlier engines should be retrofitted with the 15MM head bolts per a service bulletin and stamped ""15MM" at the forward end of the casting.

As for checking on Boat Diesel...keep in mind that the thousands of satisfied owners don't show up. But if you do go there to look at engine issues....be sure to look at every engine that is on your list as a "potential". Old Perkins, Cat, Lehman, Cummins all have their own set of problems....some of them very expensive indeed.

[sunchaser]

The 8.2s are with a checkered history, whether old wives tales as Skidgear says or real as others I know say. Either way, the engines are a V8 with dual exhaust manifolds vs one on a straight 6 with resultant more plumbing and parts to deal with. Having dealt with taking a pair of 8.2s to survey some years ago (they failed) and watching a friend add a pair of JDs to replace 8.2 s, that is my direct hands on knowledge.

You may want to check up on the rumored lawsuits J and T faced over the 8.2s.

[Underway]

divebums,

I'd recommend you read the string referenced below for a detailed discussion of the Detroit 8.2T. There's a difference between "direct hands on knowledge" that is nothing more than second hand anecdotes and innuendo ....and actually living with the engine for almost ten years.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s...elp-12762.html